Currently, with how overtuned her dagger is, sienna isn’t even bad at melee.
It’s (feels like) nearly as fast as Kerillians double daggers, but has a shield ignoring heavy strike and a push-stab that propels you forward, with enough damage output that I can onehit most contents of a wave.
It is siennas role to provide serviceable, if unimpressive, sustained firepower due to never having to check for ammunition, while still allowing for bursts on bosses that would cost her health to keep up.
Currently, the sustained firepower might just be a bit too strong, or her firepower in general. Well, and ironbreaker, too, having apparently even faster cooldown than a fireball stuff, but none of the squishiness.
I think just a few changes to her (level 25) talents and actives could go a long way towards balancing her.
I think it’s more the traits on weapons than the talents. I use the cd trait at lvl 25, not the heat reducing one, and can still machine gun down whole hoards on champion it seems like.
Venting temp health seems a little much the more I play as well.
Any one thing in a vacuum isn’t op on its own, it’s having venting+talent+traits all at once that gets nuts.
Daggers’ range is poor. I tried killing waves of scrub skaven but they’ll get one or two attacks through due to latency or just being unable to hit them first due to the range. The push is also very bad and maybe stuns like 3-4 of the 6 skaven in front of you. Maybe if you use accessories for better melee that you can pull it off but otherwise it’s very lacking in my experience.
1vs1 is doable because you can dodge away and hit fast. But with a 1vs1 you might as well block, wait for recharge and one hit with your staff.
This is more of a scaling issue than a balancing one. Maybe something like that can be said for all subclasses. Grinding for all the BiS (best in slot) gear to get OP might be a good reward mechanic of the game.
Well, my party member, who mains elf, says that the weapon is better than dual daggers on Kerillian. He thinks it has higher range, even, though I’ve not been able to test that. I’ve also had no problem defending a chokepoint against a wave with it on champion; the weapon feels far better than the rest of her arsenal, what with Fatshark raising it’s damage by ~50% on release.
Sure I could just hit them with my staff, but the argument was that her melee options are far worse than other classes, and while that was my opinion in the past as well, right now it doesn’t feel like that at all. The only option she lacks is a proper 2h weapon.
As such, I believe a rebalancing of her ranged capacity should not be hindered by her perceived inadequacy in melee.
I think the weapon traits and the beamstaff bug are the issues overtuning her. But her 1st class really needs help and if you nerf those, she’s going to have it rough.
Suggestion: First class gets a passive that prevents or reduces friendly fire.
Sienna, elf and flamethrower dwarf. If 2 or more are in the party then I stop even trying to do anything, I just try to keep up as they steamroll through the entire game effortlessly.
I really see mixing classes and builds depending on items. Sienna os diferent as a pyromancer than the rest of classes. But she is also diferent when played with beam staff than bolt than the rest. And its either diferent when using dagger than the rest of melee weapons.
Obvius isnt it?
Sienna with dagger and the correct talents as pyro can hit really fast. Also with proper stats of attack speed, etc… Probably as fast as Kerrillian with daggers in any form of her classes without buffs of speed.
But, Kerrillian still has more widnees with her daggers. So for hordes is not comparable at all.
Anyway, i play all classes and as other people said I love variety. And you cant expect to have each class doing everything right in a 4coop game.
I mano Sienna right now just because i have her more lvled and equipped than anyone.
And she is not good at all. Other classes will do other things better than her. She depends too much on cds. But its enough good to be loved in teams.
That said, I see most of the people having complete diferent perceptions of what needs a buff and what a nerf. What is OP and what UP.
So, as other said, weapons, properties, traits talents, classes, skill and playstyle makes the Build.
And í see players that reached really effective builds and others not.
As I see people having much weight in a team that others just making numbers. Just because sienna kills hordes, in some situations well, doesnt mean the rest of the classes cant do it in other way enough good.
Probably people without problems maximizing their playstyle and efectiveness with builds, dont bother asking for nerfs in the forum.
Probably we should ask before to people that really performs well the class they play, instead of making statements like beam staff is OP when its bugged and doesnt work as intended . Im not saying nothing new.
Like stating that legend is … Having soo much builds to perform.
Beam staff and pyro Ult are broken now. I run Legend with few friends and Sienna is just easy mode: overheating is not an issue anymore really, she is great anti special with her beam explosion, she can clear horde, she burns bosses. And her ult one-shots Chaos Warrior on Legend, something even Kerillian ult can no longer do with 3 headshots. And her ulti has lower Cooldown than Kerillian ult- wtf?
Her other staffs are good but she should be first of all forced more into melee, not run 100% of game with staff.
Beam staff needs more overheating, less damage vs specials, damage falloff and range cut-off. Alt Beam Fire should have huge overheating to force Sienna player to actually swap to melee weapon from time to time.
Right now it’s not only boring playing with her, but she makes a lot of other careers feel useless on field as she can do everything as good if not better.
You could also mention that her low cd ulti also stuns bosses. Concentration Potion with +50% duration trait is just hillarious.
Edit1: We’re running legend with one bot. Me as Shade with Glaive and her awesome Volley Crossbow (ammo on crit with Shade’s increased critchance makes it even good at hordekilling) as a jack-of-all-trades. Sienna with beamstaff and IB with Flamethrower. Most of the time, my job is just to stay back and look for strays, help a bit out whenever sienna or IB need to recharge and help out with the specialist, although sienna takes care most of the time. It’s almost a two-man show
Edit2: ok I exaggerated a bit with the two man thing. Without my assist, the few specialist i shoot, the time I give them to vent, or the strays i kill, the chaos warrior focus and the boss-dps, they would die as those litte things make the difference between life and death on legend. But the point is, it doesn’t feel that usefull and no statistic entry I can think of could even honor that. My team knows how important my job is, but I can understand people being frustrated having to do that job - feeling overshined (pun intented) by sienna’s and IB’s flamepower.
F…ck readjustments… Seriously… I’ve always played as casters in RPGs… If I wanted to play a spellsword I would start playing as Unchained (this class needs some fixing).
After crit chance and sharpshooter netf a high level pyromancers that requires certain traits and stats is a balanced class. She has it bad when she is levelign up but then she gets strong. As any mage class in most RPGs.
Nothing OP about it. Works as intended.
I read nothing well-deserved here. Just melee peasants wannabe warriors complaining about a class working as intended (except for a beam crit mess).
“A max level Sienna with specific talents, specific trait and specific stats excels in almost every situation and is extremely strong, always dealing high damage”
Fixed that for you. An I expect her to as a ranegd mage class(pyro) to perform like this afetr going all theswe hoops. Thank you very much/
No. She is not that good vs bosses.
False. It doesn’t stagger everything. Even a bolt staff better than beam in this regard.
So?
or dear… a one-time use bottle…what a horror
You just envy her is all.
Excuse me, aftergetting to lvl 30,grinding for a specific trait and stats I expect a pure mage class (pyro) to deal with heat extremely well. If I wanted to play a spellsword I would play as Unchained.
Maybe your group should be better at doing their job? On champion skilled players do rougly the same amount of damage. (and as it was stated numerous tiems the scoreboard is extremely overrated)
Perhaps you should blame whoever designed this boss huh?
And perhaps you lot should ask the devs to buff melee classes instead of crying about casters doing their job and demanding to turn them into spellswords.
As a whole, I politely ask you to lighten up your tone, this won’t make for good debate if you keep it up.
Now to your rebuttals (and my rebuttals therof):
Don’t try to work around the swear-filter, it’s there for a reason.
The vast majority of the game will be played at level 30, not while leveling up, so bringing up that she wasn’t quite as much a killing machine while leveling up is a poor point to make.
If Fatshark had intended for the heating mechanic to be trivialized, Pyromancer’s passive would’ve just gotten rid of it from the get-go.
It’s the same as me saying that it’d be fine if a min-maxed Footknight Kruber was literally invincible. Mechanics exist for a reason.
I just want something to actually do while playing this team-oriented game.
This is pure entitlement, you can’t honestly demand that the game give you that much of an easier time just because you grinded for things? Do you want to eventually one-hit bosses when your gear is good enough, or do you want to overcome obstacles and challenges with your friends?
I did not even mention the scoreboard in any of my posts in this topic. I only ever talk about how it’s not fun playing with someone in your team that uses a career that is, or at least seems to be, overtuned.
Generally I don’t care about the scoreboard either, but it’s at a point where the difference in power is very noticeable while playing.
I’ve already been vocal in my dislike for this boss, as it’s not fun for any melee-based character at all, don’t worry. Had you actually read my comment fully, you’d know that this was an anecdote for my ‘Defend the Pyro’-argument.
Vermintide 1 and 2 are designed as games focusing on melee-combat, especially when looking at the track record of Fatshark.
From a purely pragmatic perspective it also makes more sense to tune one character/career than multiple.
Lastly, if we buff all classes to be on an overtuned level, we’ll reach a point where the game, not even on the highest difficulty, will provide any challenge.
Again, it’s okay if a character does one thing extremely well, but it’s another thing when a character does most things extremely well, while trivializing their defining mechanic (heat) and having barely a weakness (melee, which can be taken care of by other players anyway).
Yea, play her 1 or 2 evenings underpowered and be op for the rest of your life, because Mages have to be op because … magic.
When making her tradeoff for having awesome and unlimited range attacks is almost completely deleted by a trait is “working as intented” then please give every melee weapon a also non-op trait like +20 perma hp after each melee kill and kill one random specialist on every 5 melee kills, as negating a class’ disadvantage with one trait seems to be the way to go.
Yea we got it. Sienna is weak in the beginning so she should be op once she took the exhausting and unbearable hoops of leveling up.
She is at least topper tier.
Ok it doesn’t stagger bosses, Blights and Leaches and I’m not sure about chaos warriors. Only everything else, pls buff.
Yea, with the sheer uncountable number of boss encounters each map (last time I counted like 20, but I’m not very good at counting), a one-time use item is hard to spend.
That’s right. What do you think why we can envy her in the first place? Let me guess, because we are wannabe warriors and not have-to-be-op-because-magic mages?
Oh no, you just did what every other player has to do too. Take a cookie for your effort and here’s your exclusive opness as reward.
Do you really think that is true or do you just say it to keep your opness untouched?
We get it. You want to play a nonstop casting mage with no drawbacks.
I main Sienna and may be biased, but i don’t think she’s OP.
Espacially because i lack the capability to vent through melee, and take some punch for venting manually (It costs time and makes you slow, even if you side-dodge while doing so. Temporary HP only fills up lost ones, so it’s a good thing to have a little “buffer” for venting.)
But because Pyromancer doesn’t have any other venting support talents viable imho, exhaust comes into play (It’s somewhat of a must-have at this point, but that’s not the talents only fault, it’s her overall balancing). But when you vent, you loose tons of crit power.
In my experience Pyro isn’t OP. People just seem to be jealous about her killing things before they can kill them themselfes.
But - A good Sienna will cover your backs aswell, and i’ve never heard a complaint about that. Maybe because most ppl don’t even recognize how much i help them. They only see the occasional burning skull killing something and point a finger.
I guess some ppl did never play Vermintide 1. Sienna got nerfed in some aspects aswell. Dagger charged being a lot weaker. Beam Staff Shotgun Blast dealing less damage but knocks a little harder. Weapon swap got butchered aswell. And yeah, as i said, you can*t vent through melee anymore, which is a VERY big thing and forces Pyros into using Exhaust, and Dissipate ruins pretty much your Critical Mass passive.
And about the dagger: It was always a high skill weapon. Most ppl don’t even like this thing, or know how to use it properly. Personally i love it’s high risk-reward and skill based playstyle.
And if you want to see something as much “OP”, just look at some of the melee weapons, able to kill a chaos knight in just a second or less.
This is a team based game. Personally i don’t really mind who kills which enemy as long as the party is safe and we finish the mission. I have great respect for any good other twitch-shooter in my party killing the most dangerous specials quickly and i’m thankful for everyone watching my flanks and back, or killing the Chaos Knight right next to me.
I main Sienna, and that doesn’t stop me from thinking pyro is cheesy.
100% more heat cooldown speed with a grim. Drop all heat every 40 or so seconds. Which also means that you can easily get those overheat bonuses with no consequences, as you’ll never have to painfully vent if a boss comes around or someone pulls a patrol after a horde.
Her active could easily have 50% more cooldown.
Her ult is better Kerillian Ult- shorter cooldown, can also hit multi targets, one-shot Legend CWs (Keri ult does not), vent her which leads to more Beam Staff Spam.
She has no damage fallof and can snipe in STRAIGHT line a specials across the area without needing to aim for headshots like with LongBow or Rifle. With Bow you also need to count projectile fall + ammo issue. Sienna do not have to worry about those.
Her beam staff stacks and burs bosses from safe distance.
Her Beam staff deals with horde easier than any melee weapon.
Her Beam staff deals easy with SV shileds because it deals damage over time
Her Beam Staff one-shot SV on Legend- something you need for a headshot form other range weapons, Slayer dual axes, 2h Axe or Pick charge attack all requring either more skill (aim) or putting you at risk (melee). She just ez them.
WIth her venting talent she runs 100% time on run with Beam Staff, never having to switch weapons. Every other career needs to switch a lot between range/melee to maximize their performance. Even slayer needs to switch a lot on Legend to alt weapon.
Do I have to go on? Right now Pyro with Beam Staff does EVERYTHING. And he does that better than any other career- special killing close, special killing long, killing armor, killing CWs, killing bosses, killing hordes, killing enemies behind obstalces like Keri.
Running with her is not fun because you don’t feel you really fil any role in team because Sienna fills all.
The point is, with the 25 vent talent and heat sink trait you barely ever have to vent. I would have no problem with her power when she really would have to stay back of the fight and be guarded while venting after unloading her annihilation on the battlefield. This would embrace teamplay, and reward it. Furthermore it is imho the intented design for her.
My thoughts as I was playing Waywalker while she still had unlimited ammo. She could kill trashmobs the fastest (of those who can afford wasting ammo on trash), which gave her the outstanding dmg numbers. Once on higher difficulties, she lost a lot of her dmg, because midfight she had to be far more carefully because of FF and only outshined by much when she was the hordekilling (front standing) one (which I prefered to let the flamethrower-IB and Sienna do, as they were more or less equally at horde killing and i could focus more on strays and specialists (and because no one wants to do the covering job, especially in random groups).
The problem is, a good sienna shouldn’t cover your backs. You should cover hers to let her take care of everything else. With the ff-mechanics it’s mostly better to stay behind her, as you are just hindering her when staying in front. And that’s the absurd part. It’s better the squishy mage does the frontline job than vice versa.
People don’t like it because it’s not a hordekilling weapon, so no bigger stats in the end. The dagger is incredible versatile and fits her very well. She already is awesome at horde and specialistkilling, the dagger helps with strays or single armored ones on top of the awesome mobility due to push-spam. One doesn’t need a horde killing melee weapon on her. Mobility with the dagger and having spells is all she needs.
Yea, but a lonely chaos warrior is never a threat. It’s only a threat with adds. A threat a melee class has to face in CQC where you get hit by the adds or have to take care of the power of the chaos warrior who hits from the 2nd line. It’s not like we aim at his head and press F from a save distance.
I agree, but standing semi afk next to sienna half of the game isn’t very rewarding. Damn i even put “W” on one mousebutton so I can vape with my other hand. Furthermore, i have a turbo leftclick button. So most of the time it’s enough to stand next to sienna, turbo leftclick to the back to kill the few rats coming from elsewhere and go for a coffee. That’s how lame it is.
Half of the game I feel like a spectator. “2nd Hordewave coming from behind” coffee sip, push mouse to turn around into the other direction, coffee sip, vape
She is at least topper tier.