Zero fun playing with a sienna

That are good ideas. Although i don’t think that forcing her into melee for a bit more will make her comparable to other classes. She will still be able to use her ranged weapons more than other classes use ammunition based weapons. It is just that she doesn’t have to use them at all right now and doesn’t even lose health for staying ranged all the time.
Also reducing her damage output could be an option to keep her ranged playstyle. She can deal ridiculous amounts of damage to bosses at the moment, without any setup. Other bosskiller specs like Huntsman or Shade can’t even keep up with that.

Beam is the most overpowered weapon in the game by far (esp on pyromancer).

  1. The best waveclear because it staggers everything, even legend chaos warrior patrol with 8-10 warriors can be kept still for ages with beam shotgun spam.

  2. Top tier special killer, best for assasins and arguably better or equal for the rest with longbow (beam easier to use cos no projectile).

  3. The best weapon in game for shielded SVs, big thing for legend skittergate boss for example.

  4. Top tier boss dmg, only rivaled by longbows. Combine beam with pyro, concentration pot and 50% pot dura increase and you can perma cc some bosses and heavily disrupt most others

Most necessary change for pyro and beam is to make beam shotgun and pyro ult not stagger armored targets. If they wanna keep beam as a cc + special/boss killer staff, make it do close to 0 dmg with shotgun. I’d personally prefer just removing temp health venting but I reckon that’s not happening, so staffs gotta get nerfed.

Yes. An Ironbreaker standing in the back all the time, having a shieldcombo as meleeweapon to be just as safe as possible, in case the passive damagereduction and op damageabsorb are not enough to keep him alive, just makes me want to stop playing the game to be honest.


Don’t forget the rushing ahead and all you hear is “fumb fumb fumb fumb fumb” while you try to reach the mobs in time but always are too late before they die.

No hate for the class but Dwarves are more prone to run off and be just generally annoying and selfish by now than Elves. Except flamethrower Bardins and Rangers, those are generally cool and try to work for the team.

i’ve not met a sienna which can keep up with my damage output, special killing or elite units yet, and i’ve been playing champions and attempting quickplay legend everyday (i would be lying if i say all runs are fantastic tho, legend wipes are common). i stick by my opinion that you seem to be locked into a very biased viewpoint based on your playstyle which seems to let sienna dominate over your party, which shouldn’t always be the case based on maps and circumstance.

when i play as sienna, i always feel that my party is allowing me to do the heavy lifting, they’re content to let me blast waves before they arrive, or take care of specials lurking behind. that’s perfectly fine, but i’m trying to say it’s a choice of playstyle that doesn’t mean that sienna is the end-all-be-all.

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One could say that Ironbreaker is the new noobclass. People that don’t like a challenge, like to take the easy way often play what is easy and strong. Ironbreaker is too forgiving, just like Waystalker used to be. That is a big deal in a game, where mistakes usually get punished hard, especially on higher difficulties. Waystalker could be played exclusively at range, hiding behind teammates. Now those people discovered that Ironbreaker does all that even better. You will see these people run in front and fall back very fast if there is any threat. They will usually not fulfill the role of a tank at any point.

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Then teach me senpai! You seem to be the only one constantly outperforming Pyromancer on other classes. At the same time you seem to outperform others as Pyromancer. To me it seems like you just try to show off in the end.

Sienna is in ok state, except unchained which is a bit bad atm. Ye, she has lots of pros - high aoe and single target damage, low cd on ult which can shot elites and specials, some ways of dealing with overcharge. But she also has some cons - mage is squishy and low on health and stamina, and if she got surrounded she can die easily. She almost useless versus armored enemies (even if you headshot Chaos Warrior you will not kill him in 2 shots). Sienna works how it is intended to be - a high dps glass cannon.


I will say that the Pyromancer’s active ability is absolutely infuriating to have in your team.
If memory serves right, it’s on a 40 second cooldown. Not 1min 30 like the waystalker or bountyhunter, but 40 seconds. And that’s without dealing any damage whatsoever.

The amount of times my friend, who mains pyromancers, can just haphazardly throw out his ability at a single hook rat (that everyone sees, no horde or other threat present) without getting punished for it, is absolutely absurd.
Hell, I main foot knight kruber and not even I can use my dash with as little thought as he uses the flaming skull.

One time, we were inbetween waves, nice and calm just trotting along the map, when we heard a globadier miles behind us. The Pyromancer tossed his ability, away from the globadier, just for us to see it loop back around over our heads and hunt it down to oneshot it.
Nevermind all the times he just chucks it into a small group of idlers, just for it to bounce away (after killing most the enemies in said group, of course) to kill a random special that just spawned nearby. Or when he can just toss it into the vague direction of a special, only for us to see it go around a corner and kill the special.
It’s worse than a bloody drone strike.

It’s reached a point where all of us, except for the pyromancer, just can’t help but groan whenever we hear the skull ability go off.

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i’m not going to lie, i do try to output as much dps as possible while staying safe and helping teammates out at the same time. i employ cheap tactics like shooting hordes at bottlenecks with hagbane before they engage the party, rushing to kill stormvermins and chaos warriors, ensuring i’m well stocked on ammo for spamming on bosses, etc etc.

maybe it seems that i’m trying to toot my horn here, but i feel how people play greatly affects their viewpoints of what is OP and what is not, and i’d hate for a class to be nerfed or buffed based on one-sided opinions, instead of looking at it objectively from all angles.

i just love this game because of the many different ways of playing it. pardon me for playing the devil’s advocate.


I agree somewhat. I mained Kruber/Bardin and Saltzpyre before, but it is just that much easier to win playing Waystalker and Pyromancer. Kill everything before they get close. I even get annoyed when people rush in legend difficulty, because I can solo it all if they just hold the line for me. Instead they insist on being melee heroes, rush forward, take damage, do minimal damage, eventually die and wipe the game. All while they could just sit tight, wait for me to clear everything alone and protect me from getting damaged. Yep it is that good to be Way/Pyro. Well Pyro less so. But Pyromancer AND Waystalker? Undefeated.

The cons you mentioned are, sorry to say, absolutely moot.
Every class dies quickly when surrounded. Tanks a bit slower than others, especially if you can dash out of there or stall with inrobreaker’s infinite block, but being surrounded is a failure state for every career.
Every class has the same amount of health, some have talents to increase it, but they’re not large modifiers. Pyromancer goes down just as quickly as Bounty Hunter.
Being bad against armour is also not really a big worry, when you yourself mention her low cooldown ability that can oneshot chaos warriors just fine.

The issue is that Pyromancer is good, or even very good, at most things without having a big drawback. I wouldn’t mind her being this strong if heat wasn’t as much of a non-issue as it is. When you see a Pyromancer almost exclusively use her magic while you’re counting your shots as bounty hunter, it’s just not fun.
And even if she gets into a pickle, chances are one of her allies will be there to cover for her, meaning three players in the group won’t really have that much to do unless the Pyro screws up.

After a while it just seems like you only exist to defend the Pyro while she does most of the work.
For example, we recently did Halescourge, the sorceror boss, on champion and the only viable thing we’ve found to be able to beat him is if everyone stays away from him, focuses adds and just hits him with their ranged attacks.
Guess which class/career never has to worry about ammo and was our only means to safely damage him after a while?



i feel that the community is having a problem with the concept of teamplay. put yourself in the shoes of the characters. what would it take for you to win? if this was some kind of RTS, a good strat would be to pump up damage on your ranged unit, and protect it while it does your work, boss dead.

the trouble is that whenever people don’t do as much damage as someone else, they feel that their class is underpowered and deserves to be put on par with that other class. why? sienna’s crazy in ranged dmg with unlimited ammo - that’s her thing. if 2 people are downed together, who can res them up in a jiffy? kruber! but is he overpowered? na… cos that doesn’t do 10k damage. he can also stunlock bosses! but nobody worries about that… just because it doesn’t do any damage.

a large part of the community wants to have every class be a super powerhouse killing machine. this game isn’t built like that.


After a while it just seems like you only exist to defend the Pyro while she does most of the work.

Pyromancer melee is bad so when you’re out of magic and surrounded it’s over. Your team needs to protect you while you recharge. This is how it goes at least for me (not yet lvl 20).

Maybe this changes a lot when you get temp health and full exhaust on ability. I would look into these talents and nerf them if necessary. However I think the damage of the class is fine for how much support it needs prior to those talents.

you should try unchained, free overcharge remove on ability cast, great for level 12 - 25 play if you’re looking for an easy way to clear it quick.

While I knew this comment would appear sooner or later, I still couldn’t help but let out a pained sigh…

No but seriously, the strength of Ironbreaker is an entirely different issue and I’ll freely admit that I haven’t played, or played with, enough Ironbreaker(s) to fairly comment on his state.
My group tends to run Kruber, Saltz, Sienna and Kerillian, so I sadly haven’t heard Bardin’s singing in ages.

I just noticed your edit, so I’ll also throw in my entirely subjective two cents to that:

I don’t mind people specialising in things, personally I embrace the tank role with my Footknight Kruber as well, same as the clutch revives with charge, in fact I love that role as a veteran tank in stuff like WoW.
But there’s just a certain point where you’ll go ‘C’mon, really…?’ upon having the 10th special in a row killed by Pyromancer’s ability, while she effortlessly decimates a horde you can barely swing at.

Me, I don’t even really notice that as much as the other two guys in my group that aren’t playing Pyromancer. It’s not that bad for the tank, I just control hordes anyway and don’t care about killing them. But what about that Bounty Hunter, or Waystalker that wanted to focus on specials? The Slayer that wants to focus on killing the hordes I control for him?
We didn’t need to actually fight a Chaors Warrior for something like 5 maps now, unless we mess up and aggro a chaos patrol, solely because Pyromancer (and admittedly the Waystalker) can just oneshot them with their specials.
It’s the same issue Huntsman had (or still has, haven’t touched him because of how stupid it was) with oneshotting bosses. Do we really want to balance the game/difficulty around the ability of one-shotting them, or do we want bosses and specials to be an actual threat?
I for one want to actually fight the bosses and see clutch headshots on specials happen, not just see things instantly die after hearing an ability go off.

Those talents are definitely big parts of the issue. It’s where I’d first change things, along with just upping the cooldown on her ability to 1:30, same as Bounty Hunter and Waystalker.
Once she gets those talents, there’s even less of a need to defend her and you’ll feel even more useless in turn.


I hope the devs don’t change too many things at once though. Just first reduce those talents and then see if further nerfs are needed.

Afaik the ability skill is fine as-is.

actually, based on your description, i can confidently say that your party is allowing sienna to set the pace, which means that she would definitely outshine the rest. it also would mean that your party can afford to move faster. a waystalker, slayer and yourself as a kruber tank should be pushing forward and mowing things down at a rate that siennas would be hard pressed to catch up with (sienna can’t keep up with the party if she’s constantly shooting)

in 40 seconds in between sienna’s cooldown, that’s a loooot of stormvermin, specials, rats and other muck u guys can be killing.

i have to play devil’s advocate on this because of my own experience.

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Anyway i dont feel Sienna such op on champion as Waystalker was in closed beta. To be honest, dealing damage in this game is not a big problem, the one is - surviving. And Pyro is worse than most of the classes in this case. BTW Saltzpyre, Kruber and Bardin dont have such problems when surrounded by billion of rats. As Victor i just mash em all down with falchion or zweihander with no probs at all.

That is partially true, but fact is that the slowest player will always set the pace in this kind of game. While I certainly could use my dash to try and speedrun the level, I’d abandon the Pyro, if not the entire rest of the party. I will freely admit though that my party likes to take things casually, so we’re definitely not free of blame either.
I also frankly don’t see how we could set the pace during anything but a horde. Ranged characters will always have the initiative on scattered packs while progressing, especially if they don’t need to conserve ammo.
Not that we engage with things that aren’t in our way, but I can guarantee you that 90% of the stormvermin in scattered packs will be headshotted by something long before any close range character is near it. Not saying this is a bad thing, as it reduced the potential damage of that pack by a huge margin, but I’d say that is a good sign of ranged characters setting the pace, most the time.

Her ability is, on average, also way shorter than 40 seconds with talents/traits and the damage she deals. Of course everyone else gets their fair share of special killing too, but it is far from often.

I do appreciate the input though, sorry if anything I wrote implies any different.

She definitely isn’t OP in a manner that one-shotting bosses, or constant health regen is, but Pyromancer is definitely overtuned in my opinion.
Saying she’s balanced because she isn’t quite as good in melee is in my opinion a poor point, as her most popular staff has a generous shotgun effect and most parties run with a tank who’ll do a lot protecting anyway. It’s kinda like saying Slayer is unplayable without ranged weapons, even though the other 3 players will have ranged weapons still.
If Sienna’s surrounded, chances are the rest of the party is already dead, in my experience.

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