It does make sense from the RNG reward system point of view - just adds more fodder to the roll list to lessen the odds of getting the good stuff. I’m not convinced either way though.
Youtubers and community posters are great at telling devs what’s wrong with the game and what feels bad.
They are awful and telling them how to balance the game.
Only one in a thousand recommendations are any good and the rest are a unthought out mess.
The most obvious problems are constantly spammed.
I think I demonstrated enough of why Zealot isn’t “the melee class”. You kinda talked around it, but as Ogryn is support/CC orientated as much as Zealot is mainly Survival/Mobility orientated. Both have around the same amount of melee focus.
Psyker might have been over-buffed, but it’s pretty clear that it’s also meant to do a lot of damage in melee.
Your general proposal would take way more time than getting a new difficulty. You basically want a full rebalance of the weapons, and it would not only take more time, but also it would be way more disruptive to the playerbase (especially casuals), than adding 1 more difficulty.
A new difficulty can be more deadly, and enemies more resilient (both against damage and stagger). Do you want Cata level difficulty? The game has space for that, but nerfing some of the well-performing weapons won’t get you there.
The bottom line is… Currently, with good players, HiD Double Grim is already pretty easy independent of the weapon selection. With Catacan Zealots to Braced Vets (without PS) it can be a walk in the park. If your team setup is good enough (that was pretty much a requirement to have a good time on VT2 cata) it’s already easy if you don’t have dead weights that actively work against you (not intentionally mind you). A harder base difficulty is needed even if FS nerfs the half of the weapons.
This wouldn’t be that big of a deal. I find this basically to be red herring.
Kicking out players from difficulty is always bad. Your proposals are a nerf to half of the armory and basically all classes (except Zealot I guess?) this is something that would just feel extremely bad for players that are already comfortable in a given difficulty (not speaking about those who are just carried by 1 weapon).
I guess more samey options do make the game easier to balance, but that doesn’t make it balanced out of thin air, also I don’t think it’s something that would be more enjoyable. I personally like the large differences even within weapon types, and between classes with lots of ways to play.
Bit of a sidenote here, but with FS slowly buffing underperforming blessing the gaps are getting smaller. I small up/down and utility adjustments would be more than enough to bring everything in line (it’s fine if there are specialist blessings that are used a bit less often). Something like Gloryhunter that is currently pretty useless could be made very good just by switching it to “regen over time”, other blessings could be made similarly desirable with just a few tweaks.
If this is true, you are basically working against your own stated goal around the clock.
1 Like
A new difficulty is a non sense
For what?
As said by Darth_Angeal this would lead to few weapons used… everybody would use the less balanced and strongest weapons
That’s wrong… there’s always people with the strongest weapons and, so, the mission are never as difficult as they could be with weapons just averages. Things are currently far from balanced.
A zealot cannot compete with a veteran in a melee if this veteran has a PS with PC.
The same zealot cannot compete with a veteran on ranged weapons.
PS is too powerful once you put PC… Combat axe is really powerful with BM, but far from the PS with PC. Perfect strike / devastating strike are useless… Too many things that are not balanced and, even worse, broken.
So why a new difficulty? at least a difficulty like we have… there is no reason.
BUT, if it is a “nightmare diffilculty” something like that:
- one wound
- elite spawn 3 times more than in damnation
- endless horde
- damages from enemies increased a little, health same as damnation
- medicae heal wounds and only max 50% of your total health
- less medikits
Something with a big increase of difficulty, resulting in less than 1/5 games could be completed… then yes… But this has not to stop the work on balancing the game (but see after).
Vets are really strong… however, they are strong cause of the PS. With this nerf, lot of them are now back to the role they should had.
Problem is PS with PC. But, as it seems the community has difficulty to adapt, maybe they will have to push for something totally different to balance this weapon. Cause raising the base swings, even for just 2, would revert this weapon as too strong.
Psykers have been buffed. Not their survability, but about damages they deal.
Ogryn… several says it is just the cleaver… Then why do I get big damages dealt in the scoreboard with my ogryn? considering I use a kickback and a latrine shovel… I doubt it is just the cleaver the problem… Fact is that this class has the most important HP and more toughness regen of all classes and do big damages.
Zealot, are great. I think they have not been buffed cause this class is the class for surviving… So except the fact that they had not the best melee aptitude until the PS nerf, all is good with this class.
I think the main problem of Darktide is that they did not balance well before the launch. The fact they have let too strong weapons makes difficult to adjust weapons balance now.
I really think that the youtuber is right on one thing. They (FS) need to fix weapons, bugs and blessings before starting to go for nerfs. Even if, for PS and flamer, it was needed cause they were really too powerful if we compared to others weapons. But now, they should fix the weapons and look at the current blessings. Several are totally useless (perfect strike, devastating strike, Shock & Awe) or just bad (decapitator, speedload).
As i’ve said, we can agree to disagree here. I’m fine if you consider it different, it’s really nothing to discuss about.
That my general idea will probably never happen, is something i can think of by themself. But it’s still feedback given and maybe it’ll kept in mind in the future somehow, even if it’s just a little bit.
And adding a new difficulty will take longer than nerfinf the broken weapons / feats and tweaking the rest a bit as its needed.
As been said aswell… a new difficulty will just make thw players relying on the broken stuff, or we’ll have poeple complaining that zjey cant’t beat it aswell.
The same discussions just somewhere in the future… after a lot of time and effort got wasted by FS.
No it’s not, otherwise we wouldn’t need different difficulties and would’ve to make everything a cakewalk since a 3 years old or granny could play the game aswell.
Also noone “is kicked out”. All what poeple have to do is to give their best, learn some basics and get somewhat better at the game.
The whole idea of difficulties is to suit different kind of skill-levels in any game, so i really can’t take such a claim seriously.
Asking for 1 out if 5 difficulties to become outstanding and not outscaled by stats, should be a compromise everyone could live with. If that’s not a thing to someone then yes… i would call them selfish.
As been said aswell, we also have low int which helps poeple to get used to hugher difficulties and high int for more fun.
That’s exeggerated and dunno how you think i wouldn’t do something about Zealot aswell. I just need to look at the feats and see dozens of issues, of not straight up boring choices that are nothing but numbers.
Also if stuff got tweaked and heresy moght feel like the current damnation, then it’s just a word in the players head that is different, while the difficulty they got used to still exists under a different name.
Just another again… sedition is pointless and with a better balancing abd bringing enemies into a better spot, then seditiob might be like uprising, uprising like malice etc… hand out more materials on each one and call it a day.
We actually lack a lot of variety since a lot of feats akd blessings are nothing but stats some players even call to be mandatory to make them actually playable. And the same players want everything to be buffed on e.g. PS-level. That’s actually “how to kill gameplay variety site 1”.
And even if they bring blessings in line, then we still have half of them, if not more, offering nothing but stats.
Those who’ve a real impact on the gameplay and how you can deal with enemies are super rare. Like deflector, BM or PC… dunno many more, or they’re as pointless as the “maybe an elite explodes” blessing flamer.
Theb yoz seem to miss a lot of points.
I defended the armory and want low int to stay since they’re casual-friendly.
I want penences reworked even if u’ve oretty much all, but i know they’re a chore for a lot of players.
I don’t want a scoreboard and there is no need for some extra highskilled rewards like “reds only on high difficulties etc…”
But yeah, everyone is not just a majority. There are also really good players that should get catered in some way. And hell yeah it’s easily possible since we’ve multiple difficulties.
It’s really not that hard to get behind it or to actually deal with it. Poeple just need to stop being like “but i want”.
I personally wouldn’t even mind if the game would be highly elitist and only offers challenges with rewards for high-skilled gameplay. But this is nonsense since we can cater everyone to a high degree easily.
Buff underperforming weapons maybe? The gap between them isn’t as big as people put it out to be. The main balance shortfall is in the same weapon groups between MKs. It would take much less time than removing all damage blessing and rebalancing ranged weapons, which are also (as I said before) way more disruptive.
I’m not saying the balance isn’t a bit off. I just don’t think Darth’s direction is a good one. I think it’s incredibly bad to be precise that would eat up a lot of development time for something that could be done way easier another way.
No, I’m serious about this. If a team is balanced (meaning you got both long and short-range, anti-armor etc.) to a reasonable degree you can run HiD double grim or HiGauntlet with relative ease. I play high-int whenever I can and most of the difficulty comes from deadweights or players that play in ways that actually make your role harder (usually ogryns).
This is currently just flat-out wrong. Even before nerf the Vet with PS was only better damage-wise than the Zealot. Zealot was still far better in melee, engaging, and survivability.
Just on a side note here. The clip you posted about your PS (I have a similar, but slightly better one) isn’t anything special. Chopping up a shooter group that is already in melee range can be done with a lot of weapons, and much safer than with PS. Not even talking about better load-outs that would make a situation like this a non-issue.
Veteran is basically the Anti Elite/Damage dealer class with a baked-in (unreliant on talents and loadout) increased resistance to shooters. You can branch out into being an anti-shooter too with talents/loadouts. PS is a weapon where Vet can do his damage/anti-elite role in melee, it’s a high-damage low survivability weapon that is now after the Nerfs isn’t good enough for its role. Stagger Nerf, damage adjustments, or cleave reductions are fine, but it’s meant to be damage orientated weapon on a low-survivability/low-mobility class, and adjustments must be made while keeping this in mind.
I totally agree with you on this one. I always was the opinion that they should fix bugs and useless blessings first. Small downward adjustments are fine tho.
Edit: I also agree that currently, Ogryn does way too much damage for how survivable the class is. I usually don’t care that much, but Ogryn blocking other players makes this very bad.
3 Likes
Because your Kickback hits that little poxwalkers with its 1K+ dmg where 200 would have been enough. It also hits everything else that stands around that little fella.
And because the scoreboard mod is buggy and unstable anyway.
But explain to me one thing please. WHY has everything considering ‘‘melee’’ to be balanced around Zealots? Psykers and Ogryns always get overlooked when it comes to that balance melee discussions, because Ogryns have their own unique weapons and Psykers are mostly played with rapiers or force swords. The fact that the Illis FS does exactly the same horde clear stuff, for what the PS got hated for by zealot players is also a thing that is boiling up slowly now.
So now the Vet has it harder to fight hordes. NICE right. The Zealot has more to do now. But when there is no Zealot, who clears the horde? Ogryns clearly not too. Because they only get CC stuff on their melee despite the fact that THEY should be the hardest hitting class of them all.
I mean your choice of words speaks for itself.
‘‘Compete’’
So the PS with Cycler is to strong? Why? The Vet does not have the same ‘‘you get out of jail’’ card, that the Zealot has, when he fills up his HP while he is immortal and stronger. If the Vet is overwhelmed it is over for him. Fighting melee mobs is also not his main goal, since he is played around shooting. Why does he has to do the same DANCE the Zealot does? Should Zealots maybe give away all their range weapons, that are not ‘‘braced’’? Because Veteran players could otherwise feel that Zealots take their profession away?
I mean at the end of the day that is what you want. A competition for who gets the highest score.
And that bad bad power sword with its bad bad power cycler takes away your competition by stealing your digital point on that scoreboad mod. AND THAT seems to be the lowkey reason for all this Power sword drama in the first place. Because no matter what FS has planned for the future.
Who knows, maybe the Ogryn could get a subclass that is focused around DMG and not CC. Or a Veteran subclass that is more hand to hand fight orientated. A Psyker that goes more into sword and Force Gleve, who knows what.
If they dare to make anything stronger then the Zealot, we get the same kind of discussion again.
In a Pve game. Where the goal is to make it to the exit as a team of 4. Because some people feel they can not compete as they please.
7 Likes
You’re the one making a drama. PS here, PS there, it’s all the Zealots fault and their scoreboard mod…
And a lot of other weapons are “quite ok”, but the PS isn’t when it’s not broken af and outshines everything else by miles?
At some point you really should get that there are dozens of different players claimed it to be too strong. Psyker-mains, Ogryn-mains, heck even Vet-mains who used it.
And not everyone of them is running a pointless mod to see some numbers.
Really stop trolling at this point and open your eyes.
You want to change things? Then give some valid feedback and stop jumping from one controverse claim to another just to moan about Zealotmains. They hurt your fun only in your head, seriously.
4 Likes
Did you just memory-hole the extremely long Veteran hate threads where people (mainly bad zealot players) were bashing Vet class unendingly with both how bad Vets are and how strong their class is (both of which are basically a lie)?
And those were just the hate threads. I remember when FS (rightfully) nerfed the Zealot DR from 75 to 50 and the main cry-post was that “Oh no! What would Zealot do now? Look at how powerful Vet is!”, while Zealot was and still is the strongest class overall, absolutely indestructible and super easy to carry with.
That last one was extra funny for me since I mainly played Zealot at the time and couldn’t believe players are both this bad and hateful.
5 Likes
Then take your ‘‘dozens’’ of different players, that ‘‘claimed’’ it too strong.
And put them on a scale against the hundreds and more that are still totaly
pissed about a nerf that came as a reaction to all the treads made by said class
mains.
6 Likes
It still is a very good weapon, though. I use it on my Veteran now. Even without the fabled powercycler blessing you can dish out hard and defend well. It has a good attack pattern and decent stats.
2 Likes
Who cares what happened some months ago?
He’s actually boiling down any thread to it while always moaning about Zealot-mains instead of actually interacting with the topic “why it got nerfed” or “how to do better…”.
On top he can’t even remember what he’s written down and consider weapons to be fine, but PS isn’t when it still outperforms such weapons? What kind of logic is that?
It’s kindergarten, but hey… i guess it’s better to continue to live in the past and moan all day long about a videogame and all these freaking Zealotmains stealing your fun, than actually trying to change the future.
And yet Psyker wrecks everything, Ogryn is super tanky while sitting on tons of damage and Vet can easily go trough damnation without getting any healthdamage.
Every class can carry easily. Poeple just need to git gud.
Now imagine flamer got nerfed aswell and how many Zealotmains run around and cry all day long?
FS has data on top of all the stuff poeple claim each day. And your claims show that you’ve no understanding of game-design, no sense for balance and that you stuck in the past like some Zealotmain has hurt you in RL and left you with PTSD or something.
Again… sort your stuff, open your eyes, start to listen and atleast try to engage with the topic. Boiling down everything to “Oh no, fking Zealotmains, my PS!” is ridiculousand should be the first reason why FS shouldn’t listen to someone like you.
1 Like
Go back 1 month in the tread history. There you will see who ‘‘boiled down’’ every single tread to rants and nerf calls for PS, even those about Ogryn and Psyker stuff.
But clearly YOU have understanding of game-design and a total sense of balance. Heck they better hire you asap you game-design genius! Mister balance ‘‘THE MOST ICONIC’’ and ‘‘MOST POWERFULL’’ melee weapon the 40K universe has on the Imperial site, DOWN so that it not ‘‘outshines’’ the POOPshovel. Hell they should not only hire you, they should make you their Lead-Developer and Community Manager all together.
4 Likes
you both clearly have nothing constructive to say to each other.
are we done?
2 Likes
Oh i am totally constructive. I even sat down and came up with a reasonable and well thought rework for all the melee weapons with activation mechanic. Guess who came right up to trash talk me from the side there.
This dude is so high on his horse, if he should ever fall down, your grand grand grand children could still watch him on his way down.
6 Likes
That’s why I did not answer him… He takes that too personally.
Darth should give up to answer him.
Not so efficiently.
I would not say it is above overpowered (like was the PS with PC before the nerf), but it is a little too much. However, I can live with it… but the players that point that PC seems mandatory and that it is a bad move, are right.
But the players that say the PS cannot be used… are wrong. THe PS is less fun with the nerf and without PC, but can be used efficiently.
However, even just increasing by one the number of swings as the base for PS is returning to what we had before the nerf (I know that it was 3, but any hit was removing the energizing effect when chaining swings).
I would agree about that, if it was true. Like I said that the flamer should be an anti horde weapon, I agree that PS should be an anti elite weapon.
However, it is an anti horde, anti elite, anti special, anti… everything
At least we agree on something, great! 
When I play the Ogryn I always find everything more easy… and I deal lot of damages… that’s a fact.
Do I call for a nerf? no.
Why? cause the Ogryn is not really good with Crushers and Bulwark (except the ones that use the Rumbler and put lot of pressure of their team by using it all along the mission).
Also, as I say, I want FS fixing the weapons and the blessings before any new balance changes
who cares, who is right or wrong,
you clearly don’t value anything he say’s that much is obvious.
nothing fruitful will come from your discussion.
why not stop?
Stop what? I wasn’t even talking to him in the first place.
And why should i stand and watch when the same 3 people
go on and on about nerfs or that people should stay out of THEIR
difficulty level, and so on. People who unironically use the term ‘‘git gud’’.
7 Likes
I will try to answer you, but i hope you can have a polite discussion…
From what you write, you seem angry… I just hope it is not that…
cause this is the class focused on melee as veteran is focused on ranged weapons.
Like, if they balance ammunitions for a ranged weapon it has to be done regarding a veteran and not a zealot.
Zealot should use more melee than ranged weapons… When I run out of ammos with a zealot, this is not a problem… i have a melee weapon.
In term of survivability, maybe, but with the right feats and also if the melee fight doesn’t last too long. Cause when until death starts you get invincibility for 5 s… And have to wait 85 more seconds to be able to use it again.
In term of damages, my vet with its PS does more damages in less time with his weapon.
True. You can do that with an heavy sword and faster.
However, against a crusher, an heavy sword does nothing and the PS can kill it…
Problem is that PS can kill everything and deals more damages than every melee weapon in the game.
Even with a combat axe that has BM T4, I cannot deal so many damages.
It’s so strange to me that you think this after running it.
I’ve tested PS and run a bunch of other options after the Nerf, and it is pretty obviously middling even in the damage category. I’ve also tested your setup (MKIV PS + Sunderer) at it was pretty bad.
Saying it’s okay that it’s in the “middle” is fine, but saying that it’s OP? I’m a bit baffled by it.
I mean… It’s damage orientated weapon, and even before the Nerfs it wasn’t that good against crushers mainly due to the low mobility and was bad against bulwarks. I don’t think it should be OP, but most of the power has to be offense orientated for the weapon, and yes it should outdo other melee weapons damage-wise as a generalist (due to it being on vet).
Edit: This is just me venting, so read with caution.
I’m just done with the ogryns now. Seeing them play a whole map with stubber walking infront of you all the time when you want to shoot is just infuriating… Maybe it’s just because I’m now mainly doing commando builds (laspistol/recon/braced with heavy engage on shooter groups) but oh boy it’s fun to see them trying to save you from the situation you are the safest in…
I think letting us shoot through them with all weapons should be enough, but Ogryns sitting back with twin-linked, or “range engaging” with ripper shouldn’t be encouraged. At least a vet slashing at the horde with PS or a psyker/zealot filling one side with fire doesn’t fyou over.
Their ranged should be nerfed to the ground, together with their survivability so premade ogryn doubles won’t charge everything making a small scooping circle around them happily chopping away while leaving everything else to the team to deal with while also letting them absolutely swarmed… Oh and also be down 2 people on the coherency regen, cos you can’t fing follow them to their fighting pit due to sticky enemies they tossed into you preventing you from moving. Do you want to know a good use for the nerfed PS? Scooping the mess the Ogryn dropped on you from the ground and from yourself, that 30 enemies stuck into one.
Thanks for reading my vent… No offense for that few good Ogryn I play from time to time. I think I go back to playing psyker for a while.
1 Like