Winds Of Magic Community Blogpost

Hello Vermintide Community

Wanted to broadcast a few of the many things going on inside the studio, in the lead up to the release of the Winds of Magic!

There have been many passionate discussions about what people love, hate, and why they play Vermintide. There have also been many questions sent our way and so we wanted to take some time to address as much as we could. Thank you again to those who took the time to send us your thoughts in whatever forum you found most suitable, it has been great to read through and discuss back here at the office. To that end, we also wanted to take some time to try and address the feedback, and provide some insight into what we are thinking and shed some light into what we have been working on these past few months.

We were able to push out a few iterations of the Winds of Magic during this extended Beta period. We wanted to run this beta early enough to make adjustments to the game, not push out a beta as a marketing beat on the road to a release, unable to change much of anything or be too afraid to test new ideas or make big changes. We put this one far enough ahead of release to be able to see what people feel about the content we’ve created, and have time to make changes based on the data and all of your feedback.

We are looking for ways to keep this game feeling fresh, fun and give you more of what you love as well as new ways to experience the game. Part of what we wanted to see was players playing new characters and/or loadouts in ways they haven’t before. We wanted you to experiment and play around with what you bring into a level. We did see this happening, which is great, what is not so great is some players felt we did it in a way that went against what they love about playing the game. In the first Beta we were heavy-handed with a few things (stagger and dodge - we are looking at you) by running this in a beta we were able to tweak this a few times. Beta 2 seems to have confirmed that we are on the right track with this, but still have plenty more to do, and we have been working like mad to get this into a good state.

We ran the Beta 2 to make sure everyone could play the latest changes and test the things that didn’t make it into the first beta. We ran the same survey questions for the Beta 2 to help us compare and contrast the survey feedback, to see if what we were able to act on made a big enough difference. Between Beta 1 and Beta 2 we had a little over a week to get enough info and read through enough feedback to get a sense of what we should act on, verify we are seeing it in the data, and then implement a solution… it was a bit of a madhouse here. Originally, we didn’t plan on running a second beta. We added it late to make sure we at least gave our players a chance to experience the things we have been working on. We tried some new ways of working with the community, and we absolutely get that there were things we could have done differently, especially when it comes to communication. This will be something we will be looking to improve going forward. Overall we are happy with what we were able to learn, happy that we were able to use this time to make things better, and involve the community to do so.

We use many different methods to gather feedback. We see the forums as a place for the community to gather and discuss things in a friendly manner. When it comes to how we asses all feedback and then push design changes forward, we don’t serve people based on what they want, we serve people based on what they need. We do not and will not cater to any specific group, we do our best to listen to everyone and take their thoughts into consideration when looking at what the game needs most. We spent a lot of time leading up to this beta period making better views, dashboards and getting the right telemetry to visualize the player experience; visualizing the data to get the clearest picture into how everyone played the game. It has been invaluable in confirming issues, seeing if our designs are working as intended and if our iterations are making a difference in the way that we predicted.

To be more transparent we decided to open up on the design intentions on a few of the bigger additions to the Winds of Magic expansion.

Beastmen

You wanted more enemy variation to face and overcome, we give you these beastie boys, featuring:

  • Ungors: small, skirmishing, some with spears, some with bows.
  • Gors: big and burly warriors
  • Bestigors: charging elites that interrupt and displace the flow of combat.
  • Standard bearers: buffing totem placing specials that require you to reposition.
  • Minotaur: coming soon.

Designed to be an aggressive, overrunning force the Beastmen feature a couple of new concepts and game mechanics that build on established enemy behaviours. Introduction of aura based buffs through the Beastmen Standard Bearer, in combination with skirmishing Ungors and their archers, provides a challenge where players are asked to push against the tide. Since standards need to be cut down we force player movement and dispersal. Combined with the weight of the Gors and the interrupting charges of the Bestigors we hope to create a gamespace where the team has to work together, some holding the line to allow others to deal with the new threats.

During the beta, one main concern of ours was how we make the standard noticable and understandable. Using quite invasive techniques of catapulting the players around was very successful but a smidge too disruptive. All Beastmen will be tweaked and tuned for the release.

Stagger/Dodge

  • When looking at adding greater challenges and new difficulty tiers onto Vermintide 2 the initial question was HOW can we do this in a way that does not simply up spawn rates and HP values of enemies. Damage dealt from enemies are a tricky thing since we quite quickly enter into everything-one-shots-you territory. So we set out to look at timings for player action, reaction and general tuning the leeway we give in order to be successful. We have gone over all enemies in the game and made sure we can vastly decrease the time spent recovering from staggers, blocks and attacks - effectively diminishing the time window we afford for you to react. We then tune this per difficulty and at the Cataclysm level you should have very little space for mistakes. The same goes for dodges where we tuned down the rather generous timing for dodging attacks. The main goal here is to in part remove any gratuitous dodging (i.e. attacks that start to signal after you started to dodge should not automatically fail) and make kiting a bit more challenging (since a dodge would previously stop any enemy forward movement immediately).
  • The stagger-damage thing is a simple extension of already existing dynamics within the stagger state. From day one, enemies have had a hit mass reduction and all attacks get a stagger strength bonus against staggered enemies to support team play and bullying. When we testing internally with increased HP on enemies we found that the game becomes too spongy and take too long to kill, thus the idea came: What if we make a thing where if the players are winning an encounter, they win it faster, all while maintaining the challenge presented and remove the ability to one-shot everything while kiting? It also creates a risk-reward challenge of sacrificing control of other enemies to focus on some. There were also other side effects like helping certain underperforming weapon types out and add more value to shouts and knockbacks in general while the basic implementation of everything was already in place.
  • So how does stagger work: Any hit will/can cause a stagger. There are different animations, categories, and durations depending on enemy, weapon, and attack but every hit that causes the enemy to abort their actions is a stagger. Pushes are good for staggering, but a dagger to the face will do just fine as well (headshots have an easier time staggering things). So to utilize the stagger bonus, hitting something multiple times is the way to go. Light attacks will give short staggers but are generally fast enough to reap the benefits, so combos become more valuable. Push-staggers are solid but costs stamina and otherwise teamwork with close positioning is solid.
  • During the Beta, a lot of changes were included and tested. From a gameplay and balance point of view, the meta was forcefully changed with quite heavy-handed nerfs to existing meta-builds and playstyle that we know work. We have no intention of removing beloved play styles from the game but rather see if we can expand the ways we can play the game. So the work until release is heavily focused on tuning and tweaking breakpoints and weapons to mesh the new with the old. Single target weapons, specifically low-stagger ones, suffered during the beta and will be brought up to par. Shields thrived during beta and will be tuned along with everything else.
  • The end result and learnings from the Beta is what we suspected, there are clear limits to how much we can push enemy HP and resilience without changing the feel of the game. We will adjust accordingly.
  • We also added stagger-damage-specific talents. We saw a need to allow for some customization and wanted to provide a choice of either delving deeper into the mechanic or bypass it to some degree while finetuning your playstyle. Hence the options to support either skill-play through headshotting or heavy hitting single target attacks. We are aiming at keeping that talent tier but it’s being tweaked and tuned to make the choices interesting and relevant.

Weaves

  • People have been asking for more ways to play the game, we wanted to bring a new game mode to life. We believe that Weaves, with difficulty scaling, a shorter in play time mode will push you to try new weapons, careers and tune your gear differently, and then keep tweaking your kit depending on the weave you are trying to beat.
  • Each weave is curated, meaning all elements within them that would normally be random in the base game are no longer. This causes the weave game mode to feel like more of a puzzle the higher difficulty you reach, making you question “what should we do and how should we do it in order to solve this?”.
  • Weaves are unlocked sequentially, completing a weave unlocks the tier above it. The intention then is to make each Weave progressively more difficult to a point where even our most stalwart players can not complete them. The endless challenge provided by the weaves comes from this scaling difficulty. Towards the top end of the leaderboard we fully expect players to be learning every detail of a weave to be able to complete it, and in doing so move onto the next challenge presented to them.
  • The decision to make weaves as handcrafted challenges opposed to making them randomized, like Diablo 3 rifts, for example, is very deliberate. While the truly randomized Weaves would work up to a point, there are a few reasons we decided to go down a different path. The combinations are limited, and if you play long enough you start identifying good and bad Weaves when you step foot in them. This leads to so-called “Weave fishing”, where you load into Weave after Weave, ditching any that are less than the perfect randomized value. We wanted to avoid a player experience where you matchmake into a level and everyone leaves or you burn hours rerolling levels until it’s the combination you were hoping for. Which is at best tedious, and at worst is the reason you stop playing for the rest of the season.
  • We wanted to move away from this and instead try and see if we could build interesting and challenging handcrafted versions of Weaves which would cater more to the fact that Vermintide 2 is a much more mastery based game. We think you could play Weaves much like you play a From Software game, where you enter blindly into a new challenge, you have no idea what’s coming at you and initially struggling at being able to respond to what the game throws at you. After you fail a couple of times you start identifying critical moments in the Weave; “I will get attacked by berserkers at this point, then a gutter runner will spawn that I have to deal with”, then the mastery aspect kicks in where you learn to deal with these different challenges one at a time until you have a 100% clear rate against this specific scenario.
  • Why no random mode outside the leaderboards? It is an interesting idea we have also been talking about, we wanted to start with the static weaves see how that impacted the matchmaking experience at scale and then iterate on that design based on that information.

Leaderboards

  • When we added weaves we wanted it to be a more competitive mode, we wanted to give players a ladder to climb on that got more challenging as you go. We felt that the design would feel lacking without a leaderboard, a way to see how far you have come and compare your progress with others, or see how far you have come.
  • The Weaves game mode we are adding in the ​Winds of Magic ​expansion​ ​seeks to add another way to challenge yourself in-game; whether it’s competing for the top of the public leaderboard, aspiring to be the best within your group of friends, or simply attempting to beat your personal record. Having a way to see that progress, we felt like adding a leaderboard was a good way to represent this in-game.

Difficulties

  • We want Recruit through to Legend to feel basically untouched, keeping the gameplay and choice of challenge that you’ve come to know and love. These difficulties should be supported by the progression, and rewards gained, helping you beat the challenges you will face in higher difficulties.
  • With that said, we will be and have been adding new mechanics and changes to the overall gameplay both with the introduction of new enemies/weapons, system changes and tweaks. We hope these are as engaging to play as they have been interesting to build in our effort to keep improving.
  • Cataclysm is something we wanted to add for those who like pain, this is not part of the progression and this is not something we think most should play. We had this in Vermintide and we wanted to pull it forward into Vermintide 2. To quote FS-Ratherdone “Cataclysm should be for people to play beyond the progression (as in, progression will help you reach and beat legend, but not Cata). Cata should require a well-functioning team. Cata should not be something you qp into and randomly clear. Cata should be HARD but since our mastery scale is what it is it’ll probably be too easy for the ultimate top tier of players. Cata should be something a freshly progressed and legend competent player sees, tries and dies horribly in, then grinds their skill and mastery of the game until they and clear it and has that Matrix-moment when they wake up and goes “I know kung-fu”. Yes, my analogies are on point! Basically, Cata should not be the most insane challenge ever concocted in the Vermintide experience (modded or not) but a peak challenge that requires you to master the game, co-play, clutching and all”.

Athanor, Essence and Magic Weapon Crafting

  • When it comes to progressing through challenges in the weaves we wanted to make a system to match, one that allows you to tinker, and fine-tune your loadout to be better equipped to survive.

Separating Progression

  • We are committed to making Vermintide 2 a game that lasts for a long time, and to help us keep it alive we wanted to have a clear entry point for players to jump back in.
  • We looked at our options when it came to supporting a seasonal structure for weaves, and part of the seasonal experience is being able to start out fresh together with your friends. We landed on having separate progression between weaves and the adventure mode as we want to change weaves from season to season, respond to how people are playing and push people to try new builds, mix up what and how they play
  • It will also allow us to change the balance without making it impossible to beat old records.

New Talents

  • We wanted talents to go back to their roots and be in better sync with the fantasy of the career you are playing. Taking a deeper look at what players who choose those careers like to do and how we should lay out the talents to better support that journey.
  • We have made a ton of tweaks and changes to talents based on your feedback and data collected during the beta period. Jump in, try it out and let us know what you think!

Seasons

  • We wanted to do more consistent and measured larger updates to the Vermintide 2 experience. We want to be able to set and communicate with everyone what is up and coming, and what you can expect from us. We felt like a switch to a seasonal model made sense for us to plan against and create fun interesting content for. Going forward we are looking to communicate Season start dates earlier and also let you know what content they will contain further ahead of time.
  • With each season we aim to drop new content, do bigger balance updates and evolve the game together

A New Level

  • Dark Omens is a new level we have added to the adventure mode for this expansion. It is the level that introduces you to the Beastmen and asks you to save the Reikland from devastation. Without spoiling more, we are looking forward to having you jump in and take part in this new part of story content we have handcrafted for you to enjoy.

This is not the end. This is a continuation of our commitment to bringing you more of the content you love and pushing you to try new things and play in new ways. With all this said we would also like to know what information you would like to know more about? We would like to do more of this kind of communication with you going forward. This is a pretty beefy post, we had a lot to cover from this expansion, hopefully we have answered some of your more burning questions.

We look forward to saving the Reikland with you. Now time to get back to work :smiley:

Sincerely,

Vermintide Team

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Excellent post. Thank you for being so transparant and clearing up the intentions and mechanics. Your explanation of what each difficulty should be is, I believe, in line with what the players want.

I would like to adress one point here:

Progression is not the same as grinding. For some, it is, but others, such as myself, feel like the game doesn’t start until the character has max level and is fully decked out. The progression in this case is a gate for content.

I think this is fine for new players as they are forced to get familair with the game and try out different weapons. But doing the same progression over and over feels like going backwards instead of going forwards.

That’s great news.

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First, may I ask what happened to the beta forum part, is it archived ? Is it deleted ? Did I just lost rights ?

Asking about this, because I did not back up the posts, mainly the big one about bugs & issues. And can’t access it now.

How do you know that weave you are in is going to be the easy one ? If I play Cataclysm do I know when I start that this run will be easy ? If that is possible than please can someone explain to me how ?

I have no idea how I could predict that in the last part of the run I’m going to get 3 assassins & 3 hookrats on top of the swarm of enemies while AI decided to pick Chaos Spawn as a boss.

Therefore I fail to see how one could effectively “fish” for very easy weave without actually playing it.

Also, matchmaking ? There will be no matchmaking for high weaves, no way someone does QP in very hard high level weaves. People won’t be interested in playing QP static weaves they already finished and are lower level than they are stuck at. Why would anyone do it, aside for boosting friends to higher weaves ?

If I fire up lets say The Pit map, only information I get at start of the map is whether there are skaven or chaos enemies, that is 50:50 I guess and it doesn’t really give me a reason to restart map because I see it’s Chaos Warrior over there looking at me and I’m more of a Stormvermin guy.

As for beta and beastment spawns, they seemed to be kinda fixed in terms of chance to spawn them. For example Horn of Magnus was like 90% beastmen map, consistently, while other maps could be much lower and than some maps had very low amount of them or even none. All this while still keeping the game random, so there was no issue with that. If someone played Horn of Magnus 10 times, it was still hard on all of those runs because it was still spawning a lot of beastmen, and there wasn’t really a way to start the map and be like “Hmm, yes, I sense this particular seed it very good, we shall go for this fish !”.

We could have pretty good run and than get suddenly stomped by chaos spawn, wave of specials and 3 banners along with lots of beastmen. And again, no way I could predict that situation, and what would I accomplish if I decided to leave the game as soon as I saw that situation ? Nothing … I would accomplish nothing. I would save few minutes at best and I would miss out on hard encounter that I could learn something from.

I don’t understand the “weave fishing”. Could someone please expand on how would it even work ?

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I think it’d mostly be about seeing the first few enemy waves and how tough they are. There is at least a perceived correlation in spawns throughout a map (I cannot confirm whether it’s real or just perception for a couple of reasons), but even disregarding that, if the first couple of enemy waves take you a lot of time and effort, you’ve already lost your chances at getting good results. Inversely, if the first few are easy, you have a lot more time and resources to play with in the latter waves.

I think my personal preference would be for some randomization in the enemy compositions: Monks one run, Savages the next, Monks and shieldvermins the one after that. This so that a single strategy or setup wouldn’t end up being the absolute best (I frankly hate a strong metagame), but generally you would still know what to expect and what to prepare for. This would also still allow hand-crafting and tweaking the difficulties and challenges.

Yea, is Geneviève Dieudonné coming in the next expansion then?

:joy:

Thanks for this post, clearing up a lot of things. As for more information,

  • Will there be another beta leading up to release?
  • If not, what are the chances of getting a balance patch directly after release?

Now, I hear about seasonal weaves, and I’m kinda worried that these are going to pull staff away from the base game to work on them. As someone who is not interested in weaves at all, can you let us know what exactly “new seasons” will entail? Is this just switching up spawns and mutators? Or are we talking about new weave maps and so on? Or are you saying that seasons will bring additional content for the entire game and not just weaves?

Finally, what are the chances of getting the new crafting system for the base game? Is Lhoners cosmetic shop still in the works? Deed rework? Night maps from October event?

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Waves are semi-random also, you can’t predict anything usefull from that. There are certain compositions that will spawn and that’s it. And that is not the hard part, so this won’t really provide some significant advantage and reason to leave the game.

You don’t even know what faction you will get when 100%, unless it is the “only skaven” map like Nest.

The hard thing are the combinations of the spawns, combination of certain spawn of specials, with boss & horde in some nasty spot of the map, and that is unpredictable.

Therefore there would be no weave fishing. People could leave if they got hard situation, but that would be just lame and people pushing for high weaves would not do that. Those players push, and either they can do it or they can’t. It’s not like they run Cataclysm and when it gets hard they all rage quit and go again hoping for easy situations.

Thank you for taking the time to provide us will all of this.

Here are my thoughts on two major topics, followed by a humble suggestion :

1 - Random weaves / levels and leaderboards

I think you made a mistake by adding two separate ideas together : weaves and leaderboards.
You say that you do not want people to “fish” for easy weaves / seeds and chose not to implement randomness because of this.
You might not have considered that some of your players play your game for the fun and intensity that it creates. At some point, loot becomes unimportant because we have grinded / “earned” all the gear that we need.
We play to be challenged, we play to face dire odds and survive them. We play because winning is not guaranteed. This is why some players love the Onslaught and Deathwish mods. This is why some players glitch recruit deeds to play them in legend difficulty (which will be cata instead in WoM).
This is why people want a deed generator or a deed mutator option in custom games. Once players have earned enough vaults and completed Okri’s achievements, including Last Stand maps and any other “fixed” content (non-random weaves) that becomes boring to replay once it has been beaten / mastered, the only long-term ingredient that you can give to your game to keep us playing it is randomness.
Yes, randomness can make leaderboards irrelevant. I do not know for sure because D3 has both and some people still play it, but that is not my point. My point is : the Vermintide audience never had a leaderboard system, and we are still here. It would be nice to provide us with what made us play this game, and love it, so that we can play it more and love it more.
Non-randomness is bound to lead into boredom, eventually, whereas random levels (+ deed mutator toggles) has the option to generate unlimited freshness.
You could even dig deeper and have some sort of seed number given to players so that they can replay a random level that they loved. Streamers could share it to their fans that could post their performance on YouTube or whatever…

2 - Seasons and a “fresh experience” ?

I am very afraid of what you mean by seasons.
The game has never felt more interesting than during the Big Balance Beta, in my opinion (if you exclude DLC releases).
Moba’s and other popular games these days tweak values through patches constantly, to keep their audience interested.
Is this what you intend to do with seasons ? If so, great !
BUT, if you also intend to make some sort of wiping (of essence, character levels, and perhaps even gear), then I will run away, very far.
Grinding is not fun to me. I’m not sure that it is something that the Vermintide audience enjoys. Legend+ players worked hard to earn a gear that they can customize to create strong builds that can beat the hardest challenges.
Wiping this to make us all grind for items, levels or essence is a very artificial way of creating “needs” to log into the game.
I know that you will probably keep an “non-seasonal” character progression somewhere, but if all of your efforts to create new content goes into the “seasonal” part of the game, then we will be forced to join in and accept the wipes.
Let me tell you this, I am quite certain that this will make me move on to other games instead. I play deeds, (hyper)Twitch, and harder difficulty mods. I did not enjoy playing Weave 1 with a wooden sword and 0 character talent in the beta / internal test. I will not enjoy playing this again every X months.

A suggestion

It is too late for WoM but it might not be too late for your next DLC / Extension.
This is what I (humbly) think would be awesome for this game (and the amount of your sales) :

  • Random levels (eventually with a seed number that can be saved / set to share the best results)
  • Deed mutator toggles (or craftable deeds)
  • Item crafting overhaul (why not implement the athanor system into the main game ?)
  • A “big balance beta” on a regular basis (maybe it is what you mean by Seasons)
  • To a lesser extent, new weapons are always fun once in a while !

Once all of this is done, or maybe while this is done, new levels and adventures, with a story, would be great to have. You love the WarHammer fantasy lore, so do we : let us explore it further !

I would instantly pay the value of a triple-A game for an extension that provides me with this content. I would also buy / subscribe to a season pass for new maps and adventures.

But fixed content and seasonal wipes ? No thanks, I’ll probably get bored and pass :frowning:

5 Likes

When things get competitive (i. e. with leaderboards implemented) people will start seeking any advantage they can find. This will extend to searching for easy iterations of a particular map. And while you cannot judge everything by the start of a map (or a Weave, if they were random), it can be, or at least taken as, indicative. If your start on a map, Weave or anything is difficult, that limits your options and performance later on, either through spent resources or at best, merely time. And this is discounting any psychological effects, which can be very important. If there was full randomness implemented, any boss encounter (or a Chaos Patrol or equivalent, for that matter) would be a showstopper. Even with semi-randomness on the Bosses, so that a Boss will spawn but which it is is random, there is clear imbalance - the Bosses aren’t equal in difficulty and dispatch speed.

People already leave a run as soon as they go down, and some speedrunners fish for runs without (random) Bosses. People fish for good setups in other games. People try to find all possible advantages in real life sports. There is no reason to assume that wouldn’t be the case here.

And even if fishing for nice RNG gets disregarded, fully random Weaves are unfair, because some people will just receive nicer spawns than others. That’s the nature of randomness.

Just for clarification and the record, I’m not a competitive person and thus I don’t much care for the leaderboards. This also leads me to fear for the interest fully hand-crafted Weaves can hold for me, and at the moment it seems that me (and the friends I play with) will end up trying the Weaves once or twice, or at best play them very occasionally. But I recognise that others like to compete, and see the reasoning for crafted Weaves through that.

2 Likes

Will you be able to update base game simultaneously both with seasonal thing and adventure maps?
Will seasons be a substitute for map updates?
Edit: Any news regarding release date and also price tag?

3 Likes

Ehm, maybe I’m too dumb to understand this, but … this means nothing to me, what is this sentense saying.

I understand it as some kind of opportunity cost derivation, but fail to see how it is relevant to the topic being discussed.

Can you please lay out exact strategy that would lead to the “weave-fishing” ? I’m not at Grimalackts level of understanding of spawning mechanic in VT2, but I’m well above average guy and I don’t see how this fishing thing would be happening, especially not for most people.

Also I need to point out, that most people as we have seen from feedback don’t give a sh… about leaderboards. I felt like I was one of very few people on forums who actually were commenting about leaderboards being fine, seeing no reason to remove them.

There are bosses in the weaves, even double or triple and even invisible ones in top end difficulties and it sure is not showstopper :wink: But I do agree that big spikes in difficulty like patrols probably should not be there, unless those are consistent and start aggressed in some very high weaves, which would make them consistent difficulty. When I talk about randomness I mean the standard randomness, that is in Cata for expample, random specials, random ambients, normal semi-random hordes, semi-random horde factions etc, two things that might be kept fixed would prolly be some equivalents of patrols & final encounters. But even the final encounters, I don’t see issue with random bosses. Since it’s the end anyway, you can’t do any fishing there.

If you mean official realm, than those are bunch of pussies and it has nothing to do with this issue, people will leave fixed weaves for same reason they leave Legend on official and they would leave random weaves too, they just can’t take the difficulty, they blame others and ragequit. That is not connected in anyway to fixed/random weaves topic in my opinion.

Sorry but, taking Handmaiden, fishing for pots and than dashing thru map in 5 minutes, that has nothing to do with Vermintide gameplay. And this could be fixed easily, as they partially did, by the boss walls.

They could add more mechanics to counter this without bass walls, like some boss enrage mechanism or fixed the intensity system so that boss won’t stop all the other spawns when intensity reaches the threshold… that is dumb imo, I got vids uploaded where I will spike intensity on purpose and than run thru over the half of the map without any spawns aside from very little ambients, while kiting the boss, easy … That is just broken, that is not proper gameplay in my mind. That is a bug.

And who is complaining about that in past year in VT2 ?
What do people love about this game, the long time players ?
How is FoW doing in terms of replayability, how are people liking it ?
How many times did you play FoW ?
How many times would you play it, if there was no frame for it ? (Answer is hardly at all, since it’s fixed and fixed stuff has barely any replayability , it’s borring)

Ye hardly anyone does, we could do poll on that. If anyone doubt about this statement.

What happened in beta and what will happen when this goes official in much bigger way is that difference between hardcore players and average Joe will be incredible, in terms of score, and you know how this goes, if someone is so much better than you, you will prolly lose interest in competing with him.

I said it many times, if people get their group for fixed weaves, they will get stuck at some particular hard weave (which will not take too long) and than they will keep grinding it over and over … and over … you know … and over … and at some point they will just get pissed that they are running the same thing over and over and can’t do it and they will just drop it. And that will be end of the weave action.

While if it were random they could go back and replay easier/interesting/fun ones and actually have fun doing it, not doing easier one for 10th time and be like “Oh … alright, here comes the hookrat… ok… than second one from here, now the flamer here … zzzzzz … ah… ye gunner on the right and behind … ok done… amazing”

I did spend a lot of time playing those, I’m talking from experience.

And most people are not such nutcases that they will run same map 50-100 times and even if someone does, than they got next harder one that as FS said, they won’t be able to do at all and so … replayability is over. Content is dead… that is just … why ?!

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This will be the situation for majority of people, not just you.

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We also added stagger-damage-specific talents
Pushes are good for staggering
Just from that first line you can clearly tell this game is going to be so heavily revolved around that stagger system it’s despicable. Stagger is still a mandatory system that you are forced to use? Well it’s clear you care nothing for any of the input that has been going on during this beta on this very forum. I am amazed at how much you are going to screw this up.

What a massive waste of time this beta has been when you clearly have no intention of listening to any concern anyway.
I probably won’t be buying this and uninstalling the game but I already saw this coming.

In the end you could not fight the nature that is a Warhammer game. It will eventually turn to poop.

You have learned nothing.

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I already feel like I had my fill of weaves tbh…

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So you added one new level? Well, that confirms what I was afraid of. I will not play this game anymore. All this time, one new map, a game mode that is horrible and boring and the changes to stagger that makes the game slow and worse to play, congratulations, you’ve killed your game.

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I remember how much people cared about the last stand in the first game, the reward was negligible and they only took a long time to run, weaves for me feels the same, it’s a game mode nobody asked for, with the incentive of… leaderboards. They are ignoring the core principle of skaven for instance, they will run towards you in hordes, but the hordes can easily be mowed down until they ammas such an incredible number that you can’t stop them. Now, with the stagger mechanic, ONE clan rat has to be staggered to die fast enough. This is NOT how you increase the difficulty! You make specials tougher, you make elites harder, you make bosses do new stuff! Not making the trashy hordes tougher that stormvermines!
It feels like they designed this around the first game, they just forgot that the first games hordes had around 20 rats, not 100-200 that we get now! The stagger will only change the meta towards making it mandatory, which slows the game down to having maps take around 40min-1h instead of 20min.
No thanks, Fatshark! I will stay updated, and until you add more maps and remove the stagger changes, I will not buy or play your game anymore! Thanks for killing the game.

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Well i’m personally looking forward to what the end product is going to look like before i make any glaring jumps in judgement.
Then again some of the stuff said in this blog i really do like and it clarify’s a lot of points while others like random weaves i personally disagree with. You could very easily make separate ladders for those if the leaderboards are required or just you know let people play them for the challenge and laughs. It does not have to be ultimate competition to be something you could enjoy.

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I understand this concern, I’ve been in situation where people were asking me to play Deathwish and I was thinking “Give me a break I don’t want to go push around bunch of sponge mobs, that’s not fun”.

But, I gave it a chance and it turned out after some time that it is actually interesting, because suddenly you can’t just bully everything with every single hit and you can’t one shot most of the enemies, so you suddenly have to think differently, you learn how to avoid the slave rats instead of just insta-trashing them kinda mindlessly.

Problem with this is, that at start, it feels kinda bad, so there is natural pushback to this (also DW is too much imo), especially for people who don’t feel like Legend is complete joke.

I think that what FS did in Catalysm is very nice middle ground between Legend & Deathwish, which feels great to me with the OP weapons. If they did not create all that mess with the stagger mechanic and just tuned it like it feels now with the “good” weapons, than I think it would be amazing. It seem to be just right, when playing something like Executioner.

But again, I understand there will be resistance to any sort of upping HP / stagger resistance.

Yes this one is just terrible, I didn’t comment on that since, everything has been said 100 times already on that topic.

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Okay, I’ll try. First, there are a couple of assumptions that need to be made: First, that the Weave that was attempted was indeed random. Second, that the people attempting it would be trying to reach a high place on the leaderboards (be it completing a high Weave where difficulty is a real issue, or just the best possible performance on that particular Weave).

The group will start the run, and see how it goes. Case one (the one being aimed for): The Weave begins with easy-to-moderate spawns (if we’re talking about full randomness,
this means no Bosses and few Elites and nasty Specials). The group proceeds, and because they have no trouble at the start, they also have more consumables and time to deal with enemies later. Difficulties down the line (regardless of if the group goes down or not) may or may not stop the run, depending on how steep the difficulties were and how tight the tolerances for success are (the latter are tighter when competing for score, looser when only completion matters like in adventure mode). At any point, if the group deems that RNG seems against them, they will quit and start the run again, as they’ve (at least in their minds) lost their chances for a good result.

Case two: The run gets started as usual, but this time, the RNG isn’t on the group’s side, tossing berserkers, assassins and a Boss their way. This is likely to eat up consumables (healing, Potions, Bombs) to deal with the threats fast, so there’s a lot less room for error later. Healing can even be used after the fact; if there isn’t any at hand now, it can still be used if needed as soon as one is encountered and that’s still away from later safety. These situations also take time to handle (without specialists, a Boss takes time and a Special or two can lock down the group for a while too), and that’s another resource to manage (and as the Weaves seemed to be time-limited on the footage I saw, quite an important one). The chances for a good result in the leaderboards are busted right away, and the run gets restarted, even if the situation would in “normal” play be recoverable (and wouldn’t stop a group just going for fun).

So while randomness in the Weaves wouldn’t harm the people playing them for fun (who I suspect are in the minority as the Weaves’ current form is what it is), it would have a direct and strong impact on the competitive people’s play. While I said I’d prefer limited randomness, a more sensible option (if only for the labor each one needs) would be a separate random Weave mode without leaderboards, probably initiated with a tickbox somewhere.

True, but that’s because everyone needs to deal with them. If only some groups had those encounters, those who didn’t would have significantly higher chances of good plaement on the boards - or even Weave completion.

Yet that’s the competitive part of Vermintide until WoM comes out, and people do it. While it can be disregarded for the most part, as a precedent it’s valuable.

Those who get the short straw, even without competitiveness added in. While it’s rarer nowadays, there has been a lot of discussion about the fairness of the RNG. A competitive setting would only increase this.

Finally, I really don’t know what the balance is between the competitive and non-competitive players. I’d say there is reason to assume some weighting on the people who play non-competitively (in the community as a whole and in the noisy part of it), both because they’re more likely to be interested in the game as a whole and as such, more likely to comment on things; and because there is no (official) competitive mode in the game for now.

I agree with that, but there still are such “nutcases”, and quite a lot of the experienced players put a lot of weight on advancement of personal skills, and will return to the higher Weaves every now and then just to test their skills.

Awesome! It would have been nice to get some of this reasoning spelled out for us at the start of the beta :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Qs:

  1. How long will seasons be and what will get reset? I’m worried I don’t have the time to grind classes I want to play up to the difficulty that I’ll find interesting every few months.
  2. Have you considered “wind-less” weaves? I think the base game provides plenty interesting mechanics to build good weaves without the mutators.

I’m glad the stagger bonus system is sticking around but that you’re rebalancing weapons still

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HAHA ! My idea was read !

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