All Beastmen will be tweaked and tuned for the release.
This would be precious, especially for the banner guy. Cataclysm force the teamplay… and currently that banner destroy every formation or strategy.
Shields thrived during beta and will be tuned along with everything else.
Please, don’t nerf the shields! Finally they are good as they should be. Great stagger, but low damage and damage vs armors (apart Axe + Shield).
Cata should be something a freshly progressed and legend competent player sees, tries and dies horribly in, then grinds their skill and mastery of the game until they and clear it and has that Matrix-moment when they wake up and goes “I know kung-fu”. Yes, my analogies are on point! Basically, Cata should not be the most insane challenge ever concocted in the Vermintide experience (modded or not) but a peak challenge that requires you to master the game, co-play, clutching and all”.
Exactly! I love these words. So nothing unfair or unbalanced just because “Cata is the end game”.
This is good to hear, I’m hoping you guys will be able to find a good balance before launch. The new system was basically a straight dmg buff to some already great weapons with easy access to cc (dual hammers, executioner’s) and left others behind.
Gotta agree here, if we have to start out anew every season I’m going to be even less motivated to play weaves. Hoping the weave currency from doing normal maps is going to remain, but I’m still mostly waiting on random weaves.
I also don’t really get how it’ll encourage people to go for new builds, worst case you waste all your time grinding weave currency only to find the build isn’t as great as you expected. At a guess most people’ll default to solid builds they’re familiar with and meta builds, it’s easier to experiment with new builds in the basegame (and that’s saying something with how tedious basegame crafting is).
I really wanted basegame crafting to be improved and/or work like the Weave one does, even if they keep the two separate. I’m still hoping improvements and/or a rework is planned for in future.
Agreed, axe/shield anyway already pays for its utility with the axe’s low cleave and cleave helps a lot on cata with how dense it gets.
Hopefully they’ll adjust so that all the different weapon choices feel good to use and we don’t end up with noticeably weaker ones like on live (shields) or on the beta (low stagger, especially the ones that also have low cleave compared to their cc alternatives).
It should be mostly about completing the weave not having uber tight timing that this kind of scenario you are describing would require. This super push and cheesing was only needed in some weaves and those were just badly designed.
So I would argue this aspect of weave should not be bottleneck, the speed/timer. Like if you are good, got amazing group and you don’t have snail tempo, you should be able to finish the weave just fine.
In that case, I see the point about boss, if you get 2 bosses during th first weave part randomly than that would create great big difficulty spikes, but as we already talked about, this could be easily fixed by :
only spawning the bosses in final arena
always spawning a boss at some part of the run (so the boss is there everytime, therefore the differences are not too big)
making only bosses spawn fixed
Also, the score for particular weave is not an issue, like people won’t be competing on one weave, re-running it and trying to get better final score, they will try to do higher weaves and get better that way. Only reason why this was happening in beta, was in solo runs and real reason was that balance was terrible and w30 could be easier to do than weave 15, and so people found the best high weave for solo and tried chessing that one as much as possible but than again that is design problem that needs fixing.
Yea this case, is the same issue as first one. The boss issue & the very tight close to impossible timer issue.
Boss is very easy to fix by previously recommended solutions and the super tight timer is just wrong design. There was one weave, 36 or 37 I think, which was probably impossible to do normal way, you just had to cheese it. (Actually I got the lower version of it here : https://youtu.be/cu0qqwrC_U4?t=127 , what you do here ideally, is you pull and kill few mobs at the start and than you proceed to dodge/dash trick your way to the finish while everyone else can just get rekt) Because otherwise it would not be possible because of the timer and even with the cheesing the first part we got into situation where we ran out of time, it was just stupid. Extremely frustrating, like you are doing the last boss and when it’s at last 5% hp, you get defeat because timer ran out. That should not be happening at all. People should just get worse score, not defeat.
The super competitive people are minority, not the people who play for fun I think poll on this would be very sraight forward. If the options were like :
Are you super competitive kinda guy, who will get full pre-made team of hardcore ppl and burn thru weaves to get that sweet first place ?
Are you someone who plays vermintide for fun, for social aspect of it, to just slay some rats and don’t really care for leaderboard and especially not when it comes at expense of replayability ?
I mean hey, if we do this poll somewhere public, ideally in launcher and we get at least like 50:50 split in votes than damn I will never say a frickin word about this topic !
I would guess we would not even get 5% for the first option.
Ye absolutely, therfore this would need workaround. Which would be simple.
I don’t think that is competitive part of Vermintide, I don’t know anyone who does speed running, that is not fun for most ppl. I mean does anyone like seriously speed runs long time ? Like play game for months that way ? Is that even possible ?
I think DWONS is regarded as competitive part of Vermin now, that is what top players usually play.
Yea I don’t remember really hearing people complaining that they don’t like Vermintide core gameplay because it’s random.
Well, the highest unofficial difficulty is DWONS, there is kinda open discord as far as I understand it, dedicated that difficulty and to finding people to play it with, people playing that are the hardcore competitive people, the legend ,deeds, twitch, that is no difficulty, that is all super easy. DWONS is miles away from it.
In that discord is currently 132 players, not all of them are active of course and some of them only joined to play the DWONS once or twice and than stopped because it wasn’t for them.
Currently there is 45 ppl online.
So now, to the ratio of trully hardcore verminators who really care about the leaderboard and who will be destroying the top positions vs casual people who are playing for fun and diversity … these guys we’re talking about are not even 0.1%
The secred-beta-discord that sure had most of the hardcore guys, was 75 ppl including the random newbs, so there wasn’t much more than 50 hardcore guys either. (and there is overlap with those in DWONS discord, so it’s not 50+50…) And I doubt there is lots of people playing secretly DWONS without interaction with community, having their secret DWONS premades
Yes, but those should not play a key role in decision like this, weaves are huge part of the expansion and if they get fixed for top elite 50 ppl than ffs who decides this kind of stuff.
And I’m one of those ppl who enjoy insane content, including DWONS and all other modded stuff, but I sure don’t want the major part of big expansion get screwed just so I can compete with other 50 players while everyone else is like “damn it… this is boring… I was really looking forward this expansion”.
ps: Reddit is already killing this topic also, it’s just so obvious that fixed spawns are bad move.
I think the real issue with Winds of Magic as it is, is NOT the separate progression, but more the “grind” issue it comes with.
In diablo 3 it takes litterally (with a friend) 10 mn to be max level with a new character. And 1 hours and a half without a friend.
Also, it doesn’t “reset” when you switch weapon.
If you want us to overcome challenges by switching our strategy, it will require us to switch our build, which isn’t really easy when you have to grind it all “again”.
Based on the reception to weaves in the beta forums (inc. polls) I think the main reason people who want to play them for fun are in the vast minority is that most people wanted RNG in the weaves, if you add RNG to them that’d reverse and suddenly people playing for enjoyment would be the majority. iirc it was around 5% that wanted to play weaves for the leaderboards.
I like competitive play but scoreboards don’t do it for me, I’d rather play Versus mode where I can tangibly watch my opponents get destroyed in real time than look at numbers on a scoreboard (and anyway not know how much cheese or unbalanced builds my opponents (potentially) used to get their high scores). As it stands I’ll probably play weaves through once.
A separate RNG-based endless weave mode would be enough for me, it was honestly what I thought we were going to get when weaves were first announced.
I didn’t mean the players of the game as a whole (on that point, I agree that the vast majority isn’t playing competitively), but the people who (will) play Weaves regularly. Exactly because of the static Weaves, they’ll draw the competitive and optimising players to them and push away the more “for fun” type, who get tired at the known and unchanging spawns. But I don’t think that either section should be forgotten, especially now that they’ve committed to the competitive aspect with introducing the Weaves and their leaderboards.
Not the randomness as such, but specific imbalances it creates (that, in all honesty, are a part of “true” randomness): Frustrations at crafting (rerolling the same Trait several times in a row, for example), extremely high difficulty spikes (which still happen but have been addressed and reduced) and annoying quickplay map selection. This has caused enough frustration in people that there have been suspicion (that hasn’t ever been completely dispelled or proved, to the best of my knowledge) of the host’s CPU affecting the RNG results or enemy spawn amounts.
That is my impression too. Which is why I also advocate for more randomness in the Weaves, either as an alternative to the current static version or as a limited change to bring them somewhere between fully hand-crafted and fully random. As I said, their current form pushes away the more “casual” players (who aren’t necessarily casual at all) and caters almost solely to the competitive aspect. I guess that hasn’t been apparent enough in my messages, though.
Even if I forget for the moment about how silly it is to focus on creating big part of expansion just for extremely small players base… those people won’t play it regularly, is the thing you are probably missing, because those top guys will play daily and push thru all those weaves very fast, than they get stuck somewhere, probably manage to push few more weaves from that point and than they will get stuck on some unbeatable, uncheesable weave and just move on, done… weaves finished. And that will be it. And this whole process won’t take half a year, it will be like 2 weeks probably. Maybe even less since they already have quite a lot of experience with weaves from beta
So … than you got top teams trashing it up to the point were it’s impossible, relatively fast and rest of the people being pissed that it’s fixed and that it has no replayability.
That does not sound like good move to me.
And I’m saying this for a long time already … it could have been fixed just fine before the release. It still can most probably.
Yea those are all different points. I’m only talking about the randomness as we experience it in terms of spawns in Legend. To be specific.
As for other issues I agree, like crafting is just horrible, everyone agrees on it, latest poll showed like 90% of ppl sees it as something that has very high priority and needs fixing.
The CPU/RNG sure was a thing before, not sure now, since I host nearly all the time. I get consistent experience.
Extremely high difficulty spikes, I don’t think I experience those, the worst case scenario I see is bit more monks/zerkers. I would not call that extremely high spike. Maybe people are playing with someone with horrible CPU and than join someone with 8700/9900K @ 5ghz and suddenly they are thinking “damn this is insane” , but I don’t experience any crazy difficulty spikes.
Competitive players will always, from my experience, be a minority of any game. Having no RNG in weaves is for me something obvious if you want to have a leaderboard since everyone competing should have the same challenge so that you avoid people with luck leading the leaderboard. With that said, none of my friends who play V2 will even bother with weaves since there isn’t any incentive to do so, and who cares about a leaderboard in a game like this? The challenge should be what you strive after, not being “number 1” on a pointless leaderboard.
Weaves in themselves I don’t have anything against, they are unnecessary to the core game, they are not fun and I will 100% skip them if I decide to play, problem is that they don’t add anything other that would keep me interested. They should have made at least 6 new levels instead, focused around beastmen, they will give us 1.
And when it comes to the stagger, it has nothing to do with the HP of the enemies, this is a BS argument tbh. For me it looks like a way to make some weapons more useful than they were before. Problem is that they force the players to use them, because without them, you won’t have any benifits from stagger. It’s just a straight up moronic system that makes me question the intellegence of the designers in this case. And now, they’ve gone too far with it and will make it happen no matter what, even though every single forum thread I’ve seen have stated that they don’t like the system. So good on FS to ignore what people want. That will just punish them in the end.
At this point, I just want a release date and price. It’s nice hearing the thoughts of devs on the development, but it does also sound like just a defense of unpopular ideas.
Still, I’m not going to walk away from the game just because of a blog post, but my interest in the game is waning in a way that it never has before. I hope they actually are tweaking this stuff to player feedback.
I’m kind of unsure what we’re arguing about anymore… It seems to me that we both (and several others too) think that catering pretty much solely to the competitive players is a bad idea. The biggest difference in our thinking seems to be that I’ve accepted the decision as made, and see the point of the static Weaves in that context, while you’re trying to get FS to reverse the whole decision.
To reiterate my point: from a competitive point of view, the static, hand-crafted Weaves make sense. They eliminate the unfairness that is inherent in randomness, and basically enable actually comparable leaderboards. It can also pull in new players to the game in the form of some more competitive players (though I doubt that’s really a significant number). It doesn’t mean that I agree with the decision or will play the Weaves significantly, but it seems that FS has made their mind, and as such, I respect that decision and want to advocate some tweaking or additional features to cater to the less competitive side of players too instead of wanting them to reverse that decision.
Actually I don’t think this is the case, like champ player is not doing Cata 3 weaves because he got lucky. I think that they could keep both, random spawns and also the leaderboard and all that would happen would be that people would be able to push a little more with bit favorable spawns… but not much really.
Again, it’s like, normal game is random, does that mean that everyone will be able to do Cataclysm, they just need to run it few times and get lucky spawns ? I don’t think so, someone who is barely doing Legend will get rekt 100 times in Cata and randomness won’t really help him.
Will some team be able to get better score if they replay certain weave 100 times ? Sure, but that’s not issue or is it ? It seem fine to me, they invested more time, improved their skills while also improving their score in easier seeded runs and while having fun… actually… since they were not running the same seed over and over.
There will most probably be incentives, like imagine you get the weave skins from weaves as incentive for reaching certain weave level with that weapon etc. I think they will surely come up with some incentives, but that changes nothing on the base issue
Right ?! I was talking to a friend yesterday, who only did about half of the beta and than went back to Path of Exile and he said something like “You’re crazy, they are not changing anything form these core things, we will get the stagger mechanic and we will get the fixed weaves also”
Reading this post, I was thinking… guess he is right.
Ye, I’m probably just dumb. But I still take this as my first go around… I did not particiapte in giving much feedback before…
So I will keep pushing till the release and if my activity doesn’t lead to any fruitful results, than I will cease my crybacking and resign.
Ye agreed, the exchange is probably confusing because I did not state that, I would not mind loosing a bit of leaderboard comparison perfection for the randomness. Meaning, if it’s random without huge spikes, the leaderboard will still be pretty accurate, in terms of skills, it just won’t be perfectly accurate.
And who cares about perfectly accurate ?
Yea that is my problem, I don’t respect it. I see it as purely wrong move from objective standpoint. Same goes for stagger mechanic.
Nobody who put serious time into the beta liked the stagger changes. Only a very select few elitist jerks enjoyed it and people who where completely oblivious to the major issues it involved.
I’ve made extensive threads regarding this matter and everything I’ve pointed out and everything I’ve raised as a serious problem seems to be ignored. Already many of the things I’ve predicted during the beta seems to be the path Fatshark is taking regarding this game. Heck, I’ve even given examples on how to solve the issue with Stagger and how to use it right and make it engaging instead of a mandatory mechanic.
But to no avail…
It’s a real shame to see them go this path. The game was already bleeding players slowly. Now it’s like they decided to just cut open the wound completely as to make it thoroughly bleed.
Naturally I will keep an eye here and check in on the release patch notes once it goes live but from the looks of it.
It does not look well and quite frankly I’m just barely hanging on to that slimmer of hope they don’t do any of this. Even if I know it won’t happen…
This would actually be pretty neat. Checking friend stats and picking a seed to try and do better in (and then call them scrubs and rub it in their faces).
Each to their own but that’s only one part of the beta. On the other hand, when working creatively, sometimes (read: most times) killing your darlings is for the best.
From whose objective point of view would that be?
@fs-bigras Thanks for the info. Looking forward to see the release product!
I’m open to someone explaining me why it is good idea to keep weaves fixed and do seasons. Like seriously, if someone writes a post that makes sense where he explains why it is great for the game, for player retention and general longevity of Vermintide. I will just reply with something like “those are great points, thank you for changing my mind” and will be happy about the result.
@Yzneftamz, pointed out some good counter points, but in the end we agree, he is just seems less direct in saying that it’s bad move, because he don’t think it is going to change anything.
And I don’t see how we are getting anywhere if people just can’t point out the obvious problems with new ideas.
but than again that is design problem that needs fixing.
I think poll on this would be very sraight forward. If the options were like :
