Upcoming Crafting system adjustments are fine stop being toxic

well they fixed it sure in the sense that it got more permissive ie it got easier to get the items you wanted over time. but that’s kind of a practical necessity of games with an intended long term loot progression like that, ie at launch the systems are quite strict. you don’t fully trust your interlocking tools to produce the outcomes you wanr or expect so you err on the side of caution. it’s hard to get good items and it takes a long time - most players are probably only going to play to the level cap or so anyway since there’s not much to do.

you leave this a bit, the game matures, the grind is godawful. everyone hates it including the hardcores who actually pursue it but that’s okay that’s better than the alternative overall. what is your doomsday is it’s way too permissive by accident and spits out way too much too fast and then it’s just out there - you can’t take items back. you have to nerf and power creep your way out of the problem neither of which are ideal solutions. but you start too strict and a competent company would then go “we’ve heard the fans, the droprates are bugged, we increased them by so and so tell us what you think” in little bits over the few months after launch.

it’s first expansion/DLC/live service megaupdate, whatever. now many players are either at or near the horrible bit of the grind and are broadly dissatisfied, bored of the existing content and have moved on to other games. most of the hardcores who are still playing have gotten 99.9% of the way to ideal and as such high power level. you want the game to be accessible to both people who didn’t want to grind/new players and powerful enough to reward the hardcores playing new and probably harder content. but that’s okay, you planned for this. let me use an example of what this hypothetically could look like in darktide:

right now the systems go up to 80, total itemlevel 380. you might open up the first part of the bar - let items cap at 90% on any given stat and have a potential 430 points to distribute. then T4 perks and blessings roll more often, maybe even start integrating T5s on super rare occasion. all your new systems reward these items - but at the same time all your old systems ie the ones that reward up to 80 suddenly get supercharged and much more permissive somehow or otherwise able to be bypassed, and getting items that once were in that category becomes much easier. now all those players who hated the grind are incentivized by getting stuff super quickly and catch up to the hardcores, who collectively can go off chasing items in whatever 40k’s equivalent of cataclysm mode is and everyone is happy. then you can do it again at 100%, and again at 110% if you want. or many many other ways for the new content to be brought up to 11 while everything up to 10 becomes common.

this describes tons of games and goes very very far back, i think this is true in diablo into diablo’s expansion even so god decades easy. it’s a pretty common tool to make sure most of the playerbase wants to keep playing at roughly the same difficulties etc etc. you would expect a new game to start strict and progress more permissive over time. that’s separate to any evaluative judgements about darktide’s itemization, which i think is terrible for many reasons (they totally botched big chunks of it), it’s just imo kind of unfair for that reason, or at least kind of apples to oranges.

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How many chances do fatshark deserve to get?

If this was the first time it happened i would say it like you, let’s wait and see

But Darktide was a list of catastrophic disasters and failed promises since before launch. It’s kinda fair to assume the worst when you have been burned so many times.

Especially since they say they have been listening to players but their actions don’t match their words.

i feel a disconnect with a lot of other players of this game on the basis, for me this is chance somewhere between zero and one? i didn’t pay for the incredibly little vermintide 2 i played (after they made it free) and a friend who wanted me to play with him on steam during the beta and post launch instead of gamepass very kindly bought me the game. i have yet to pay the company a penny - as such i don’t have the same reaction personally of “this was promised and i was lied to”. to me it’s just a terrible unfinished launch and atrocious launch grind, neither of which in my experience are rare unfortunately.

their comms have been a disaster and it’s been achingly slow, but i asked people who were familiar with the company and they reported that the other games they’ve released were almost eerily similar (see the nostradamus reddit post), in fact the only observable difference meaningfully is that they publicly apologized this time. in particular there is a huuuuuge disparity of perceived fairness of VT2 in particular depending on when you played it. i really like the game and find VT2 so sloooooow when i go back to it now, so i kind of went “oh the grind is awful (expletive) it i don’t wanna chase rare weapons i’ll collect mats and wait for them to fix it”. still waiting, but mostly pretty tolerant of it i guess.

most of my friends got bored and only play very rarely now, but almost all of them were for lack of content more than anything else. if you don’t wanna get better or chase endgame items what are you trying to do at 30, chase penances?

Ah opinions and speculation. Let me try :smiley:

Let me share my tin foil hat theory based on the last few months reading on this forum.

You are just trolling on the forum for a game that had a bad launch. An incomplete and broken product that did not work at all for many people and was buggy, slow, poorly optimised and prone to crash for the rest. A game that still as of this post today has some of those same bugs from the beta and has seen next to none of the content promised pre release.

You created this thread knowing it would be poorly received by the community so you could argue with people because for some sick reason you enjoy it. You have no relevant qualifications or experience to make the claims you do but that’s not going to stop you trying to sound superior as you antagonise and irritate and already frustrated group of people.

You may not even play the game or be invested in its future in anyway and it’s quite possible have more than one account you use on this forum to troll. You skirt the forum ToS never quite doing anything that could get you banned but still managing to be aggravating and rude.

Enjoy your in game emotes while we wait for what’s left of the promised crafting system to be deliverd 3 months late!

disclaimer I don’t personally have any problem with Linzman but I don’t think he’s serious about his posts here and is just being annoying for the fun of it.

Imo the best thing he can do is just not post while the rest of the game is delivered months late and incomplete and fat shark quite rightly get a lot of negative response from the people they let down.

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Guess i’l jump into this rabbit hole now.

Sure it gets easier in the upcoming patch, but we are still lacking something we had in the previous game. In Vermintide2 i could just craft say an executioner sword and spend enough material to craft it to exact specification i want and later if balance changes / i just want something different, i can again mod it.
Here even after the change we are most likely going to need multiple duplicate weapons to test different blessings/perk combinations, not to even talk about the base modifiers still being completly random.

I am also aware that loot progressions and such can get better overtime but most seem to forget that vermintide 2s loot changes came after 3-4 months after launch, bright dust was also introduced into the game in same 2018 launch year. But this is really getting into topic i don’t really care to dive too deeply into because fatshark could change our crafting system on a whim one day if they wanted to.

This is conjecture at best. Even considering the previous game where loot is fairly easy to come by in a state that is considered “meta” viable, people still have insane hours on the game and it still sees massive injection of players everytime there is even a small content drop.
Sure too loose of a loot system is bad, but i don’t really buy that removing 2 locks from items is going to get us into that state, but this is again conjecture from both our parts.

Like you said previously, the lack of new content is what most players tend to care for the most and it is certainly 1 of the biggest issues currently on vermintide2 when devs go on half year - year hiatuses to produce even the smallest bits of content.

IN a vacuum this is true, but games such as diablo/path of exile also work on a seasonal system where most players always start a new seasonal charachter, so implementing new power system is a lot easier when everyone starts from scratch again. You also always tend to have new league specific enemies and mechanics tied to these upgrades. Which in turn depending on the league may increase the overall difficulty or reduce it

In Dakrtide You cannot just implement constant new power like in those games, you would break difficulty 5 celing pretty quickly, its already arguably too easy and the crafting update will just make it easier for everyone else. I already think it was mistake the make base power of items 80% instead of a 100%.

This game inherintly is not about massive gear drops and checks to clear content like those other games that rely on gear to do so.

Whatever darktides crafting will be in 2025 is anyones guess, but just judging this from someone who was there from the beginning of vermintide2, You really should not put much weight on this system changing massively once its properly implemented.
I for one would like it to be something that does not force me to spend more time outside of the game vs inside of the game, you know the part of the game that i actually enjoy despite all of the flaws it currently has.

Edit: Think i’m done, might fix some spelling later.

I play for the gampley, the core sistem is fun, just is very repetitive so to keep it fresh i like to swap out builds an characters, but if i have to invest 300 hours just to have a chance to try out something different i may as well go play something else.

Do not give fatshark some “funny” ideas please :sweat_smile: :cold_face:

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Destiny 2 player with 6k hours… enough said. That’s what FS doesn’t understand.

That majority of their community is not target audience of that, unlike Destiny 2 which is bunch of hardcore masochists that without RNG and hardcore grind would stop playing that game long time ago, since for people like that it’s carrot chasing that keep their dopamine levels rising. Those are people who play for grind, not for game.

6k hours in RNG fiesta game? Dude, you are like 0.2% of normal players. Hell, I consider myself a V2 veteran with “barely” 1,6k hours in few years, and only thanks to them finally removing a lot of RNG at some point when I came back with friends.

Numbers will speak for itself. I can bet that until RNG is as it is: it won’t get many players back. Most don’t like their time wasted on chasing lottery chances… unless you are Destiny 2 players, but that’s where all those players who like grind are and I highly doubt they will come to DT from their Grand Grind Simulator.

DT and Destiny 2 are not the same target audience.

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Then same like in V2 in DT its the player not the item.
Sure there are some combos that take a veteran player and allow him to be useful in legend.
But at the end of they day it is the player.

About leveling and gear, after this patch AND everything is implemented AS they said.
The gearing progression is better than V2.
Base weapon stats in DT are vastly overestimated and good grey baseline weapon after this system is implement will not be hard to come by.
We will be able to reroll 50/50 perks and blessings which is also good.

Only exception are red items which also NEED to be implemented in DT

good post overall but like in this part - it wouldn’t astonish me if eventually this was one of those limits they eventually introduce a way to turn off somehow. or letting you level blessings or somehow rejigger stats. they’ll start cautious and slowly work their way towards a looser system in those terms. it is conjecture, this is why i am broadly hesitant to evaluate the new system at all at this point cause we don’t know the odds. if the system outputs a 380 every 10k ordos spent i suspect most problems will go away, at least on the weapon side, pretty close to immediately. if it’s a million it will make more or less no change at all.

If they do then sure i will be the first to eat my words and congratulate fatshark if they manage to implement it properly. I’m just really skeptical of this line of thinking, having been here since the early alpha stages of vermintide2.
I’m personally just more afraid that once they are “ok” with crafting, they are just going to leave it as is.
Bright dust was the last significant update to crafting in vermintide2 and this happened back in 2018. After that we got some small QOL changes at best and people have wanted more.

Yeah well if they increase the odds of this in the next patch massively, then i can definitely live with the small amount of rng left here. But i guess we will see what happens this week.

Oh cra* …

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Well my sole intent was to like i dont know… bring some constructivism and optimism, maybe. Give another perspecive. But at this stage current forum community is more like selfperpetuating cesspool of extreme frustration, dissapointment and blaming.
I can bet FS draws straws to determine who will check forums :slight_smile:
And what do you expect from developpers at this stage? Work 24/7 to deliver everything promissed within 2 weeks ? Return in time and finish the game?
My sessage was "guys calm down, at least give changes a try, because it might be not so bad as you imagine it. Give FS some time and credit. And if you want to be listened and considered, plz stop being hysterical "
Calling out FS on unfinished product also does nothing - they already know this, for sure.
Calling out in a respectful way the next features that will help to move DT closer to something that can be called finished product will certainly help.

Well the problem with this is that many of us vets have been here for years giving them exactly that, feedback in constructive and in passionate form.

For many vermintde2s launch was a massive breaking point, many of the stuff pointed out in alpha/beta stages of the game came out half baked and many issues took good year to fix.
Darktide is 3rd tide game and here we are again. Many are done giving fatshark any sort of benefit of doubt and read changes as is, because that what has historically happened with many changes.

The feedback definitely given out here ain’t the most constructive, but honestly we would not be in this state if fatshark initially just onboarded lots of ideas that were given out already in the beta stages and actually finished crafting before launch. I doubt many would have minded a other delay to get the basics done.
It is actually insane that one core pillar of the game is still being developed and might still be lacking after its implemented supposedly this week.

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That I can agree with :slight_smile:

It has nothing to do with hysteria. Company X released an unfinished mess of a title and should be taken to task for it. There is absolutely no reason for us to be here. I’m fed up with companies shipping unfinished crap. There is no law stating that things must be this way, but here we are.

Nope, with the changes they are planning you could spend 1000 hours and barely have any max items (380 weapons with specific max perks and blessings, and curios with max blessings and all max perks). In Vermintide 2 around 600 hours I had every weapon and trinket I wanted max, and at about 1000 I got like 60 red dust plus every single item maxed.

The math is still awful. The changes they are planning is awful if you want max items with specific values for break point testing.

Most weapons have 1 to 2 main stats the are completely irrelevant in terms of reaching damage/efficiency breakpoints.
Some examples:

  1. Mobility
  2. Stability
  3. Ammo
  4. Defences
  5. Reload ( Vet excluded)
    I.e. you dont need a base 380 weapon , everything like from 330 to 380 will work perfectly fine if it has 80-s on right stats

Stability is not important for a zealot, but really important for a veteran.
Defences, it depends of you playstyle, as it something important if you dodge/push relatively often. Mobility, same as defense.

But true, when I select a weapon, the modifiers are the one I prefer that being low instead of penetration or critical bonus if I am a zealot or if several blessing rely on critical hits.