The Duelling Sword Balance Problem

This has been spoken about on here quite extensively, alas.

Defensive Economy

What I would argue makes the dueling sword the most overpowered weapon in the game is the defensive economy of the weapon. It has 5 dodges, rather silly amounts of dodge distance, especially on the mk5. This problem is significantly enhanced with the blessing Agile essentially giving the player infinite dodges. This fundamentally breaks the game, and completely removes skill as an equation for melee combat on the weapon. The weapon special being able to stagger crushers out of their overhead animations while also providing an animation cancel is extremely unhealthy and provides the weapon with even more defense than every other weapon in the game.

  1. Due to the sword being a sword it should not have 5 dodges, it should have 4.
  2. On the mk5, defenses giving enhanced dodge distance should be reduced.
  3. Agile should either be removed or changed to weakspot kill gives a set number of dodges back.
  4. Weapon special (poke) should either be changed to be something new or it’s stagger profile reduced so it cannot stunlock maulers and crushers in place.

Offensive Output

The Dueling Swords are one of the best single target weapons in the game, only really surpassed by weapons without the significant defensive ability the ds have. The crit weakspot multiplier pushes the weapon into dealing around 3000 damage per second against elites and bosses, this number can be increased through problematic weapon blessings (thrust, uncanny strike, precognition) The Damage problem is more so related to mk 2 and 4 due to the thrusting attack having significantly higher damage than the 5’s heavy attack. What should be done is reduce the strikedown’s damage as it is very overtuned.

  1. Uncanny Strike on this weapon should be capped at 75% at maxed stats
  2. Finesse stat power on the 2 and 4 reduced for the thrusting attack from 2.48x to 2.0x
  3. Base heavy damage reduced from 330 at 80% to 300
  4. Thrust reduced from 60% strength at 3 stacks to 40% at 3 stacks
  5. Precognition reduced from 60% finesse multiplier to 50% multiplier
  6. In return for reducing heavy damage, increase cleave for both attacks so the weapon is not gimped out of being viable.

Thanks.

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30% strength at 3 stacks seems more reasonable for thrust tbh

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i’d say it depends on the weapon

i’m fine with DS being nimble, and fine with it being a strong and solid tool, but the big boys should be out of its league

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And stopping mutants mid charge

I agree with the sentiment that the DS is too strong.

I just don’t share the exact same views as to why it’s too strong.

The whole package being top of it’s class is what’s silly about it in my eyes. It could be good enough to just tone down one aspect of the weapon slightly or more than just slightly and it could be a fine solution.

I like that it’s a single target weapon and I like it’s performance against single targets. It’s probably too good at that job so it’s damage output could come down and it would feel a lot better. Better as in; having the visuals of the weapon match it’s performance. It is rather cathartic to 2- or even 1-shot a crusher but it is a little silly for such a flimsy weapon, especially in comparison to what you have to do to get the power greatsword to do the same thing.

I have the same issues with it defensively as well. It shares the mobility of a combat knife. A combat knife sharing the same mobility as a weapon 4 to 6 times it’s size?
I’d give it the same mobility as the bolt pistol which means slightly less dodge distance, one less dodge count and slightly slower movement speed.

With those changes, I’d wager the weapon special could be left alone. The weapon is called “dueling sword” so let’s make it a fighting mans weapon, not a running mans weapon.
The same weapon special exists in VT2 and it’s fine over there. Mostly because the weapon it’s on, is not that strong in every single other aspect of the game. Not a fantastic comparison but you know what I mean.

That assessment is correct but I don’t think that’s a problem. You’re sacrificing a blessing slot to do what you can achieve with enough skill. Sounds like a wasted blessing slot to me if I can make up for it by being good.

I do however have to add that I can see the opposite point making sense as well. Being able to take a blessing and removing a vital skill aspect with it, doesn’t sound like a fantastic idea. I have personally never used that specific blessing but I’ve also never felt like I would benefit from it.

Regarding the blessing changes: Blessing in general would benefit from another pass. I’m not going to suggest numbers as I don’t know of every case that would affect and whether all those cases would create a better balance than the current.

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i don’t use agile, thrust and barely use the special they are all good though, serously uncanny is too much and too easy to stack it should be weakspot kills or something as well as its numbers reduced

bro wrote an essay in response

I can do short just fine: what’s your point?

be concise if you want people to actually read everything and properly understand it. there is a quote for the idea “i didn’t have time to write a short letter so i wrote a long one instead”

Fair point.

I’ve made the opposite observation. If I keep myself short, I get misunderstood. :slight_smile:

i think some people especially online choose to misunderstand because of their ideas of what they want to hear

That’s unavoidable. This way I can, at least, make myself clear to those that chose to read.

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my take on agile is it really just lowers skills requirements, if your good you’ll just manage your dodges but if you’re not just use agile.

Yeah, I really don’t think agile is the problem here. It’s the damage output. If it wasn’t for that already being overtuned, no one would trade damage blessings for agile.

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uncanny is just too much as long as you have that your good try using the weapon without it and its suddenly a decent weapon instead of a powerhouse

honestly i respect your commitment to the bit.

do also combat blade nerf post pleae

remove these blessings entirely

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Agree with everything said here pretty much whole heatedly. I feel the Dueling Sword was balanced around Psyker, a class with no inherent melee bonuses, that has the ability to up it’s general damage by a decent amount but only for small sections of time. So the numbers on it where rather overtuned, and now with Psykers having more melee talents that let them keep their bonus damage for longer, along with every other class getting access to the weapon, hitting them in these ways I think hits the true key area’s of what makes it ‘too good’ verses ‘very good’.

I will say, while I feel these points are a lot more implementable, if at all possible I’d absolutely go a step further. I took a minute to compare these numbers to the knifes numbers (as it feels like a good equivalent comparison), and uhh…let’s just say ‘by all accounts it doesn’t make sense’. Their lights are pretty similar, but then knife does 140 on heavy…Dueling sword does 350. (yes I know the numbers are smaller due to them not hitting 100% just easier to compare whats easy to look up). ‘But the finnesse multiplier on the knife is bigger-’ 420 on a headshot with a knife…910 with the dueling sword.

I feel the 'dueling sword’s identity should very much not be this absolutely ‘literally more than doubling the damage of a knife while being just as fast and agile and still doing true damage to armor’ busted monster. I’d say pull specifically it’s heavy attacks base damage back as well (at least to the level of the V, being 315, if not further to 300 even), as EggFever said remove thrust/uncany strike/precognition from the weapon, then push it more into the ‘safer not quite as damaging option’ compared to the knife.

Keep Agile where it is (though maybe still lower the dodge limit to 4, given it’s ludicrous range) along with it’s dodge potential. Do still lower the stagger (as that makes no sense it should do it that fast), and cap it’s finesse at 1.75 (for reference, this is the same amount as the tactical axe’s modifier). Still will deal more base damage than the knife (525 now), but with the reduction/removal of everything else it will do that to targets that make sense, while not allowing it to trip over higher health targets without leaning into Relentless Strikes (something that it feels entirely designed around, given the short poke animation canceling). Maybe give it Executor as well as something that will play into such a playstyle more, or stuff like Slaughter Spree from the Tactical Axe. Lean into it being a ‘middle ground’ between the two, thriving at keeping yourself out of danger and still doing respectable damage, but not tripping over every enemy in the game as it still has pen, but not a lot, and no ridiculous ways to boost it. Since it’s a ‘safe’ weapon, with basically no risk built into it, verses a ‘higher risk more reward’ alternative like said knife or tactical axe. (then probably help the tactical axe to actually fill it’s role, but that’s a different topic).

That’s what I’d do at least.

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No offense to you but this has been untrue since the class update and is one of the worst talking points about the dueling sword. (If you’re saying it was designed for year 1 psyker? Maybe. I hardly played Psyker back then so I couldn’t comment on it).

Disrupt Destiny could and still does push it to ludicrous levels, alongside scryers gaze.

I read the whole thing and didn’t find it wordy.

I agree with what you said besides the weapon special. I think part of the lack of difficulty in the game currently is enemies have to play around the players, not the other way around. I.E. insant stagger on whats supposed to be the scariest melee threats in the game (Ragers, Crushers, and Maulers) shouldn’t be a thing or at least take a lot more investment to create.

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