This has been spoken about on here quite extensively, alas.
Defensive Economy
What I would argue makes the dueling sword the most overpowered weapon in the game is the defensive economy of the weapon. It has 5 dodges, rather silly amounts of dodge distance, especially on the mk5. This problem is significantly enhanced with the blessing Agile essentially giving the player infinite dodges. This fundamentally breaks the game, and completely removes skill as an equation for melee combat on the weapon. The weapon special being able to stagger crushers out of their overhead animations while also providing an animation cancel is extremely unhealthy and provides the weapon with even more defense than every other weapon in the game.
Due to the sword being a sword it should not have 5 dodges, it should have 4.
On the mk5, defenses giving enhanced dodge distance should be reduced.
Agile should either be removed or changed to weakspot kill gives a set number of dodges back.
Weapon special (poke) should either be changed to be something new or itâs stagger profile reduced so it cannot stunlock maulers and crushers in place.
Offensive Output
The Dueling Swords are one of the best single target weapons in the game, only really surpassed by weapons without the significant defensive ability the ds have. The crit weakspot multiplier pushes the weapon into dealing around 3000 damage per second against elites and bosses, this number can be increased through problematic weapon blessings (thrust, uncanny strike, precognition) The Damage problem is more so related to mk 2 and 4 due to the thrusting attack having significantly higher damage than the 5âs heavy attack. What should be done is reduce the strikedownâs damage as it is very overtuned.
Uncanny Strike on this weapon should be capped at 75% at maxed stats
Finesse stat power on the 2 and 4 reduced for the thrusting attack from 2.48x to 2.0x
Base heavy damage reduced from 330 at 80% to 300
Thrust reduced from 60% strength at 3 stacks to 40% at 3 stacks
Precognition reduced from 60% finesse multiplier to 50% multiplier
In return for reducing heavy damage, increase cleave for both attacks so the weapon is not gimped out of being viable.
I agree with the sentiment that the DS is too strong.
I just donât share the exact same views as to why itâs too strong.
The whole package being top of itâs class is whatâs silly about it in my eyes. It could be good enough to just tone down one aspect of the weapon slightly or more than just slightly and it could be a fine solution.
I like that itâs a single target weapon and I like itâs performance against single targets. Itâs probably too good at that job so itâs damage output could come down and it would feel a lot better. Better as in; having the visuals of the weapon match itâs performance. It is rather cathartic to 2- or even 1-shot a crusher but it is a little silly for such a flimsy weapon, especially in comparison to what you have to do to get the power greatsword to do the same thing.
I have the same issues with it defensively as well. It shares the mobility of a combat knife. A combat knife sharing the same mobility as a weapon 4 to 6 times itâs size?
Iâd give it the same mobility as the bolt pistol which means slightly less dodge distance, one less dodge count and slightly slower movement speed.
With those changes, Iâd wager the weapon special could be left alone. The weapon is called âdueling swordâ so letâs make it a fighting mans weapon, not a running mans weapon.
The same weapon special exists in VT2 and itâs fine over there. Mostly because the weapon itâs on, is not that strong in every single other aspect of the game. Not a fantastic comparison but you know what I mean.
That assessment is correct but I donât think thatâs a problem. Youâre sacrificing a blessing slot to do what you can achieve with enough skill. Sounds like a wasted blessing slot to me if I can make up for it by being good.
I do however have to add that I can see the opposite point making sense as well. Being able to take a blessing and removing a vital skill aspect with it, doesnât sound like a fantastic idea. I have personally never used that specific blessing but Iâve also never felt like I would benefit from it.
Regarding the blessing changes: Blessing in general would benefit from another pass. Iâm not going to suggest numbers as I donât know of every case that would affect and whether all those cases would create a better balance than the current.
i donât use agile, thrust and barely use the special they are all good though, serously uncanny is too much and too easy to stack it should be weakspot kills or something as well as its numbers reduced
be concise if you want people to actually read everything and properly understand it. there is a quote for the idea âi didnât have time to write a short letter so i wrote a long one insteadâ
Yeah, I really donât think agile is the problem here. Itâs the damage output. If it wasnât for that already being overtuned, no one would trade damage blessings for agile.
Agree with everything said here pretty much whole heatedly. I feel the Dueling Sword was balanced around Psyker, a class with no inherent melee bonuses, that has the ability to up itâs general damage by a decent amount but only for small sections of time. So the numbers on it where rather overtuned, and now with Psykers having more melee talents that let them keep their bonus damage for longer, along with every other class getting access to the weapon, hitting them in these ways I think hits the true key areaâs of what makes it âtoo goodâ verses âvery goodâ.
I will say, while I feel these points are a lot more implementable, if at all possible Iâd absolutely go a step further. I took a minute to compare these numbers to the knifes numbers (as it feels like a good equivalent comparison), and uhhâŚletâs just say âby all accounts it doesnât make senseâ. Their lights are pretty similar, but then knife does 140 on heavyâŚDueling sword does 350. (yes I know the numbers are smaller due to them not hitting 100% just easier to compare whats easy to look up). âBut the finnesse multiplier on the knife is bigger-â 420 on a headshot with a knifeâŚ910 with the dueling sword.
I feel the 'dueling swordâs identity should very much not be this absolutely âliterally more than doubling the damage of a knife while being just as fast and agile and still doing true damage to armorâ busted monster. Iâd say pull specifically itâs heavy attacks base damage back as well (at least to the level of the V, being 315, if not further to 300 even), as EggFever said remove thrust/uncany strike/precognition from the weapon, then push it more into the âsafer not quite as damaging optionâ compared to the knife.
Keep Agile where it is (though maybe still lower the dodge limit to 4, given itâs ludicrous range) along with itâs dodge potential. Do still lower the stagger (as that makes no sense it should do it that fast), and cap itâs finesse at 1.75 (for reference, this is the same amount as the tactical axeâs modifier). Still will deal more base damage than the knife (525 now), but with the reduction/removal of everything else it will do that to targets that make sense, while not allowing it to trip over higher health targets without leaning into Relentless Strikes (something that it feels entirely designed around, given the short poke animation canceling). Maybe give it Executor as well as something that will play into such a playstyle more, or stuff like Slaughter Spree from the Tactical Axe. Lean into it being a âmiddle groundâ between the two, thriving at keeping yourself out of danger and still doing respectable damage, but not tripping over every enemy in the game as it still has pen, but not a lot, and no ridiculous ways to boost it. Since itâs a âsafeâ weapon, with basically no risk built into it, verses a âhigher risk more rewardâ alternative like said knife or tactical axe. (then probably help the tactical axe to actually fill itâs role, but thatâs a different topic).
No offense to you but this has been untrue since the class update and is one of the worst talking points about the dueling sword. (If youâre saying it was designed for year 1 psyker? Maybe. I hardly played Psyker back then so I couldnât comment on it).
Disrupt Destiny could and still does push it to ludicrous levels, alongside scryers gaze.
I read the whole thing and didnât find it wordy.
I agree with what you said besides the weapon special. I think part of the lack of difficulty in the game currently is enemies have to play around the players, not the other way around. I.E. insant stagger on whats supposed to be the scariest melee threats in the game (Ragers, Crushers, and Maulers) shouldnât be a thing or at least take a lot more investment to create.
