Dueling Sword Balance Changes

First, let’s adress the combination of things that make dueling sword the powerhouse it currently is: Finesse Modifiers, Anti Armor Blessings, Talents and High Movement Modifiers

In this post I will make suggestions on what should be done to balance Dueling Sword regarding those 4 areas, in order:


1. High Finesse Modifiers:
Using Games Lantern, individual copies may differ:

Finesse:
Critical and Weakspot power: caps out at ×2.16.

Attack speed caps out at ×1.14.

It’s not that complicated, Dueling Sword has exceptionally fast heavy attacks and over ×2 Crit/Weakspot power. This means it hits like a freight train packed full of explosives in the hands of a skilled player who knows how to optimize Blessings and Talents.


2. Anti Armor Blessings:
Armor effectiveness is mainly reduced by two modifiers:

Brittleness and Rending.

Rending is a buff available only to the player with the stacks but applies to any armor the player attacks.

Brittleness is a debuff available to all players, but only against the enemies with the stacks.

Why is this important?

With Uncanny Strike, a player has up to 120% Rending. This means while at max stacks not only will armor be ignored completely, but the player with Uncanny will get an additional 20% extra damage against Flak and Carapace.

Remember those Finesse Modifiers that affect Attack Speed?

Well, with Thrust the player gets up to a 60% buff to Impact, Damage, and Cleave.

These are the two main Blessings that affect breakpoints, but it’s also worth mentioning Shred and Riposte provide a readily available 20% extra critical chance, however, Critical Damage is limited by Critical Chance unlike the readily accessible damage from Thrust and Uncanny Strike.


3. Talents:

What are the main talents that affect breakpoints and synergize with Dueling Sword? I will discuss each of the talents that provide significant synergy with Critical and Weakspot attacks.

Psyker:
Mettle: Critical Hits replenish 5% Toughness.
Also grants +5% increased Movement Speed for 4s. Stacks 3 times.

Empathic Evasion: A Critical Hit makes you count as Dodging against Ranged Attacks for 1s.

Scrier’s Gaze: When entering Scrier’s Gaze you Quell 50% Peril as well as gain +10% Damage, +20% Critical Chance, and Suppression Immunity. For every second in Scrier’s Gaze you gain +1% Damage up to a maximum of +30%. This effect lingers for 10s after leaving Scrier’s Gaze.

Precognition: Weakspot Kills count as 1s spent in Scrier’s Gaze. For each second spent in Scrier’s Gaze, you now also gain +1% Finesse Damage (+30% max) which lingers for 10s after leaving Scrier’s Gaze.

Disrupt Destiny: Each Precision Bonus grants +1% Damage, +2% Critical Damage and +2.5% Weakspot Damage. Precision Bonus Stacks 15 times and when the duration ends, one stack is removed and the duration is refreshed.

What do all these Talents have in common?

They are all critical attack damage modifiers. Unlike the next class, Zealot, these talents that synergize with Psyker’s 2.5% crit chance bonus over the other human classes do NOT affect Combat Ability reduction.

Zealot:
Scourge: Melee Critical Hits apply Bleed, causing Damage over time. Melee Hits on Bleeding Enemies grant +10% Critical Chance for 3s. Stacks 3 times.

*Note: Bleed is one of two DoT (Damage over time) types. Bleed can be affected by modifiers that apply Rending. This means with a Dueling Sword that has Uncanny Strike, all DoT stacks applied by Scourge are buffed.

Remember the Finesse modifier that increases attack speed ×1.14? Well that also means faster DoT stack application with Scourge. This turns Dueling Sword from a “ok” horde clear into a great horde clear. Normally weapons that are considered “great” horde clear have high horizantal cleave, but are balanced by subpar or average mobility. More on mobility later.

Fury of the Faithful: Dash forward, Replenishing 50% Toughness & gaining +20% Attack Speed for 10s. Your next Melee Hit gains +25% Damage and is a guaranteed Critical Hit.

It’s self explanatory. FoTF is a guaranteed ×2.16 critical damage increase with Dueling Sword Finesse modifier.

Duellist: +50% Weakspot & Critical Hit damage for 3s on successful Dodge.

Punishment: Attacks that Hit at least 3 Enemies grant +5% Impact Strength for 5s. Stacks 5 times. At max Stacks gain Uninterruptible.

Heavy attack, skewer 3 trash enemies and presto that’s a stack of 5% Impact, up to 25%. Not as egregious as the following talents in contributing to “make the dueling sword OP” but it’s definitely mentionable.

Invocation of Death: +200% Ability Cooldown Regeneration for 4s on Melee Critical Hits.

So, DS Finesse modifier: ×1.14 attack speed + Scourge: 30% Crit Chance on Bleeding targets = a LOT of CDR.

But it gets better.

Blazing Piety: +15% Critical Hit Chance for 8s when in Fury. Fury is triggered when 25 Enemies have died within 25m.

Fury Rising: Critical Hits also count up towards triggering Fury.

Righteous Warrior: +10% Critical Hit Chance from Blazing Piety.

What does this mean?

Scourge: 30% Critical Chance on Bleeding enemies + Righteous Warrior: 10% additional Critical Chance + Blazing Piety: 15% Critical Chance when in Fury + Fury Rising: Perpetual +25% Critical Chance thanks to Crits counting towards Fury = 55% Critical Chance

So now we’re at +55% Critical Chance on a weapon with a ×1.14 attack speed modifier and ×2.16 Critical Damage. Now every single one of those Critical hits counts towards Combat Ability Reduction using Invocation of Death and upon using Shroudfield or Fury of the Faithful our player also gets 100% Critical Chance on the next attack.

Now if that wasn’t overkill enough, we could throw on Riposte for +75% Crit Chance, but most Zealots are probably going to opt for Uncanny to buff DoT bleed stacks from Scourge, with Thrust to hit instant kill breakpoints.


4. Movement Modifiers:
Now that we’ve covered the Dueling Sword’s Finesse Modifier, Blessings and Talents that affect Dueling Sword let’s move onto DS movement modifiers.

Sprint Speed: [0.53 - 0.98]

Movement speed alone is not the issue, movement speed combined with the on demand ×2.16 Critical Damage, 120% Rending and heavy attack reach is the issue.

So what is it that actually makes Dueling Sword OP?

The combination of the highest sprint speed, ×2.16 Finesse Modifiers, up to 120% Rending and synergy with the strongest melee talents in the game through Zealot.


So how do we balance Dueling Sword without making it unusable?

First, Uncanny on Dueling Sword gets capped at 40% Rending. 120% Rending is absurd by itself, certainly more so on a weapon that has heavies as fast as the Dueling Sword. This one is a no brainer. Rending affects DoT damage, and the reach of DS just makes it too easy to poke armor from a safe distance.

Second, Dueling Sword Gets Removed From Zealot. Finesse modifiers are not nearly as much as an issue without perpetual access to them, which as I explained above the Zealot will have through the unique Talents on the tree.

That means while Zealot can hit thresholds of up to 75% Crit Chance that contributes to those Finesse modifiers being active, that Crit Chance is capped at 57.5% for Psyker and that’s IF the Psyker sacrifices Seer’s Presence for Prescience.

So even if we slash the Finesse stat, the Zealot is still maintaining that absurdly high Critical Chance unless we nerf Zealot’s Talent tree which obviously complicates things more than we need to for DS. It’s best just to remove the Dueling Sword from Zealot entirely.

Third, max Sprint Speed gets reduced to +.80. That puts it on par with Zarona. Dueling Sword should still be one of the more mobile melee options as it lacks the strong horizantal cleave or stagger necessary for strong horde clear, but not as mobile as a weapon that requires the wielder to place themselves in a much riskier position like the knife does.

Now, it’s worth noting Veteran also has some balance issues with Dueling Sword/Talent synergy, so I can make a part II addressing those if it’s desired:

  • No, Vet is fine with Duelling Sword
  • Yes, Make a Post Addressing Vet Dueling Sword Balancing
0 voters
1 Like

Very well done, seems like uncanny leading to the 100% weak spot rending is a big part of the problem. Just removing that blessing we be a soft start to nerfing DS

5 Likes

Only balance problem with ds4 is:

Why the hell someone think that sharing ds4 to vet and zealot is a good idea?

5 Likes

I consider removing the weapon from any operator a no-go non-solution. That’s like saying the best way to fix all of Darktide’s problems is to delete the game from your hard drive. Like yeah, that’d work, but we’re throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You can’t close this can of worms, it’s already been opened.

I think there’s a case to be made for changing how weapons work on a per-operator basis. Psyker has weapons that work differently because they’re a psyker (I believe the las pistols have a special push, for example). I think the same could be said for zealots. The DS can have its finesse/crit chance/attack speed/whatever nerfed on Zealot without affecting the other two operators. This can be explained away as zealots being more zealous with their swings, while the other two are more disciplined.

In fact, all three operators could receive bespoke DS nerfs. The weapon doesn’t have to remain 1:1:1 here.

4 Likes

I have given up on them ever nerfing this stupid weapon. Rending as a whole needs nerfed or something imo

5 Likes

If that is indeed possible, then that would probably be the best solution. That said I still believe Uncanny Strike on the DS needs a nerf across all classes.

2 Likes

Thank you, it took a decent amount of time to make this post.

I’ll never understand this logic

There’s no net gain on removing DS from Zealot, especially since Vet also has ways to make it extremely powerful

It’s a fun weapon, so instead just nerf it properly so that it matches the power of other weapons

  • Uncanny/Precog nerf as you said (also remove Agile, replace it with a maybe nerfed Flesh Tearer)
  • Mobility nerfs (so it matches the 2nd fastest melee)
  • Special Stagger nerf (so you can’t stagger Ogryns)
  • (Maybe) Carapace nerf (idk what an ideal % would be however)
3 Likes

I would agree. They could knock it down to 10% a stack, or even 5%. Hel, if they want to be cautious, even 20% a stack would be a step in the right direction.

Why it was ever 24% a stack I’ll never know.

1 Like

Nerfing Uncanny should be enough for Carapace, at least for Psyker. Maybe some tweaks to Finesse if it’s still too strong after.

The logic was, Zealot has insanely strong Critical Chance with all of Zealot’s Talent synergy and that’s where we see a lot of these crazy 1 tap Crusher feats.

That said, you’re right about Vet, Vet also has really powerful Talent synergy with DS. Like Dr. Hammer said, maybe it would be better to do bespoke adjustments outside of nerfing Uncanny Strike and mobility.

With uncanny(precog as well) + carapace nerf that should be enough to make sure DS can’t do le crazy feat of 1 shotting Crushers

1 Like

Uncanny would be a good starting point, along with the sprint speed adjustment. Don’t want to go too heavy handed right away, although I’m still skeptical that would be enough for Zealot. Only time will tell.

Yeah, there should be a period of stagger immunity following a DS stagger if there’s not already. Tbh, I don’t use stagger much as the heavies charge so quickly, it’s usually fast enough to not worry about stagger.

1 Like

On the subject, I really like the idea of them taking the most potent MK and replacing the on-demand stagger with a Parry special. They can give the riposte a bit more penetration/damage to warrant the extra effort but having at least one dueling sword actually be a dueling weapon would be pretty cool.

I’d be more forgiving on the one-tap potential if it at least required good timing. And the delay in having to wait for the enemy to attack would help bring it closer to TH TTK on most difficulties.

Also, we need more MKs with different specials.

I dislike the “change the stagger for a parry” idea because it steals the originality of the devil claw

The stagger itself is also cool, it fits for the idea of dueling 1 enemy at a time, it’s just overtuned against some targets (Ogryns)

1 Like

I don’t believe D’Claw should be the only Parry-special-having weapon. It’s just too good a concept for a single weapon family to hold rights to. So we might just have to agree to disagree on that.

That said, I am pretty sure they can make a parry special that’s distinct from the D’Claws. DS’s parry being focused more on Single-Target with high impact compared to D’Claw’s multi-target with high cleave potential. The damage profile of the DS riposte could also be more effective against Carapace and less effective against Maniacs, further giving both weapons their own niche.

Giving the parry to only one MK whilst keeping the stagger special on the other two would be the best of both worlds. It might even encourage more folks to try out the other mks.

(On the subject of parries, I think giving Ogryn a Buckler with a parry special that has a High Cleave, High Impact, Low Damage shield bash riposte could be pretty sweet. And by High Impact, I mean able to send crushers to the floor, as the big man should. But that’s tangential so forget I said anything)

1 Like

No,

Never used it on DS… and didn’t use it with Thrust either.

In fact, the weapon itself is too strong. And that’s because it has everything:

  • special that staggers
  • carapace damages
  • horde clearing
  • mobility
  • stamina
  • good blessings

Here again… I feel tired of participating in sterile discussions that are totally ignored by Fatshark.
If they wanted to fix the situation, they would have done it. There are a few weapons that are too strong, and what they do is buff the others.

So instead of asking for nerfs, ask that everything be buffed to DS level (for melee) and PG level (for ranged). And after that, they’ll have to buff enemies too… stupid, but I don’t see them doing anything else.
Now they’re throwing Demon Hosts at us… if that hasn’t made you realize how broken the balance in this game is, then nothing will.

5 Likes

If nothing else about Uncanny Strike, this alone should be addressed. Why the hell does hitting an enemy increase ALL damage across the board. It makes no sense and leads to it being stupidly powerful for Purge psyker, Zealot flamer and frag grenade vet.

3 Likes

Yep. DH’s and the entire twin bosses invading Havoc in the midst of everything else.

FS idea of addressing the power creep is throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it.

3 Likes

To be honest, I know what they will have to do after this…

A Demon hosts patrol… by 5… :flushed_face:

3 Likes

Maybe a mine field where you have to aggro them to get by…=p

sounds like clearing trash in a raid run.