Can’t leave what you’ve already left. 
The systems that are in place don’t make me come back to play more, quite the opposite.
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This is really the crux of it.
All this talk about people wanting “perfect weapons” is a distraction. Consider this instead:
Say someone has a build that sounds cool to try out, namely by have two weapons each with two specific blessings. Let’s also define that the weapons need to be “good” (not perfect). Good means, base rating aside, that you have the more important stat bars maxed or near maxed. Depending on the weapon, this can be fairly high (365+) or a bit lower (e.g. 340+ can sometimes be fine).
You then need to have at least one desired blessing on it from the get go. If you’re trying to get at least a Tier 3 blessings, this rules out buying blue items from the armory. You need the combo of “good base” item + “specific blessing” which means your only option is (a) lucking into an emperor’s gift, (b) lucking into it in Melk’s shop, (c) buying grey items and praying for a good base to upgrade to blue and luck into the blessings; or (d) upgrade an item to orange and hope you roll the blessing you want so you can replace the other.
All of the above methods require a lot of grind AND a lot of luck just to get the “base item + 1 blessing” that you can use as a starting point.
Then, even if you get the above item worked out, you STILL have to have found the second blessing at the desired tier level so you can extract it and re-bless it.
And all of this says nothing about the item perks nd trying to get that to line up.
When it comes to sharing and discussing builds, its effectively impossible to do it in the manner of VT2, payday, DRG, or even plenty of Action RPGs. It’s just too unlikely.
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Maybe it’s just me who vacuums up all half-decent-looking items from shops or any t3 blessing prior to shop change, but usually, when I want to try something new I already have something usable laying around that just needs some adjustments.
Currently, I have more than 50/50 for something 360+ rating green or gray in the shop per character each time. I’d say the same for Melk but it’s 370+. It’s also close to 90% chance for me to get some random t3 from the emperor (playing damnation). Maybe I’m super lucky but it’s soo freaking consistent.
Getting a good FS, Plasma, or TH seems pretty hard with so much high rolls, specific blessings required, and low drop rates, but high-rated shared weapons feel so common.
Hope we can see some data about roll chances, ratings in the shop, etc. this month. I’d like to see some actual numbers.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the total rating of the weapon here?
Mezmorki’s example is definitely using the combine rating for stat modifiers in the example (partially) quoted below. An item’s total rating doesn’t really tell you anything unless it’s orange, or compared to other weapons of the same rarity.
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No, I meant base rating.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen a fatshark or official poll on whether people like the grind or not. Anecdotally from scouring the reddits, steam reviews/discussions, and forums I have actually never seen a single person say they enjoy the crafting system. At best it’s just “tolerable” or “alright”. I have seen casual players, veterans of tide games, co-op horde based players, and even looter shooter fans complain about the systems as to how you interact with and get gear.
I don’t disagree there are lots of other reasons other people complain about the game. Some I share, some I don’t. I just doubt there’s a direct correlation between A.) People who don’t like the crafting system, and B.) People who go on steam forums, fat shark forums, and reddit. If out of 10,000 people only 1,000 of them bother to leave reviews, engage with the community etc. I don’t think there’s a causal/correlative pattern between the types of people who don’t like heavy RNG grind and those who do. I agree it’s anecdotal and a small sample size but just like paradigms of knowledge and Truth it’s currently the best practical conclusion to come to without new information. Aristotelian beliefs of impetus worked for humans for awhile before inertia and gravity replaced it. So, based on forum likes and responses, posts, polls, etc. I would say our current paradigm is that the crafting system is “widely disliked”, and at best tolerated.
The other component to this is, this thread is the first time I have ever heard or seen anyone say achieving perfect items is easy and just a matter of time. Every person I have seen defend the crafting up until this point has at least conceded that the likelihood of getting a max item is practically impossible/not permitted in this system. Anecdotally, again, I have yet to see a single example of anyone having a max curio or weapon even (let alone a max one that someone specifically wants).
I don’t think the “Crafting is bad” players are just coming from people wanting a copy and paste from Vermintide 2. Most vermintide 2 players, myself included, just tolerated the crafting. It had issues but at least it was relatively fair with acquisition and time. Most players say the Athanor system was the best.
I think you also have a lot of horde shooter players. Look at all the “rock and stone” comments on the steam patch notes. The DRG players are also a huge cut (myself included). They seemed to be vocal and numerous enough to get a “praise the emperor” button added to the game. And DRG is very low RNG and all deterministic loot and upgrades with builds and break points.
Are you saying that you think they should abandon the crafting system altogether? No stats?
This I think is the contentious part. “Progressing” permanently, to me, sounds like what we have. A carrot on a stick that looks like you can get it, but really can’t. A grind to get good weapons, but practically impossible for perfect weapons.
I think you can have something in the middle, and DRG is a perfect example of having a healthy playerbase without either option 1 or 2. I think this is a false dichotomy.
I disagree with this and don’t think it’s the popular experience. If someone wants a power sword with power cycler that only shows up as a tier 4 blessing, it will be a very unpleasant experience to try and achieve it. If you are hunting for anything on a high blessing pool like force sword with 13 blessings, that’s a lot WORSE than a blessing pool size of 4 on tactical axe. I think most players, once they have ~350 legendary gear of the weapons they care for the next logical step and progression is to get closer and closer to the perfect vision/goal you have of the gear you want. And it will get more and more frustrating as they realize how impossible it is to truly get there.
It’s fine if it’s not your preference, but I would argue there’s a reason websites and youtube videos and such exist and are successful. Their popularity and demand mean that they serve a purpose. I think they’re great for a few reasons. When I tried zealot for example, I never thought to try a dagger bleed build that was tanky. I saw a video and thought “That’s fun” and different from the slow moving eviscerator I was using. Seeing Psykers whip around with the duelling sword inspired me to try something. So I think they can make you try things outside your comfort zone or what you would have thought to do. Second, I think things like this are great for exposing meta builds as more players use/exploit it the devs are forced to respond with nerfs and buffs where appropriate to balance the game, which should be an ongoing process.
How many reds do you have and red dust? How much of your time has been spent out of weaves and chaos wastes and doing legend runs? Was it before or after they buffed the drop rates for reds?
Well by definition, perfect would need to be 380 with specific T4 perks and blessings yes. Otherwise it’s a “good” or “great” weapon/curio, but not perfect. I have said it before, but the highest difficulty of the game NEEDS to be balanced around perfect weapons and items. Because someone will get lucky and have it. And if the highest difficulty is trivialized by the lucky few who have perfect items it’s not as fun to play with them. If you want the challenge, then there should be accounting for it. I prefer playing the highest difficulty knowing all people have the same “quality” of gear and max level. It’s not, “well I haven’t had luck on the slots and they got real lucky so it’s objectively easier for them”.
There’s probably lots of break points. Too many combination and permutations. Especially when you consider combos (1 brain blast and then one revolver shot etc.).
Well Vermintide 2 came out in 2018 and it’s still got similar numbers to Darktide. Darkide fell fast and isn’t the concurrent session player count I would be expecting for a game that just launched. Vermintide 2 is still a game me and my group play despite having everything we want. Same with other games. We all stopped playing Darktide.
So this is the part that I find striking to me. Vermintide 2 objectively has more content. More classes, more weapons, more maps, more enemies, more game modes, more mods, etc. If you are bored and the chase of red items isn’t enough to keep you in… why do you think high RNG chase items would be good in Darktide? Or in general?
I think the way they are trying to do player retention is shooting themselves in the foot. I think, based again on the overwhelming feedback, people are not happy with crafting and their odds. I think, if your main goal was player numbers and engagement I am a betting man and would go all in and say if they removed the locks, or had some high resource cost to swap the lock from one blessing/perk to another respectively, there would be a surge in negative reviews switching to positive, and a lot more people playing the game, recommending builds, and general engagement. I can tell you there are some builds that look fun on zealot… but there’s no shared resources and the grind is so bad I don’t even attempt it. Still trying to look for loot on my Veteran and Psyker (but not really since I uninstalled the game). New DLC classes and new weapons will only exacerbate this and dilute the roll pools.
I guess you didn’t want to open the link I cited and count so here I go:
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- Revive Speed (Ally)
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- Health
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- Experience
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- Toughness
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- Stamina Regeneration
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- Sprint Cost Reduction
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- Sprint Efficiency
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- Block Efficiency
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- Cooldown Reduction
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- Corruption Resistance
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- Corruption Resistance (Grimoires)
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- Combat Ability Regeneration
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- Ordo Dockets (Mission Rewards)
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- Toughness Damage Reduction
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- Toughness Regeneration Speed
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- Chance of Curio as Mission Reward (Instead of Weapon)
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- Damage Resistance (Bombers)
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- Damage Resistance (Gunners)
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- Damage Resistance (Mutants)
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- Damage Resistance (Pox Hounds)
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- Damage Resistance (Snipers)
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- Damage Resistance (Tox Flamers)
There IS 22. Not 19.
I did state that tiers of perks have different likelihoods of showing depending on the quality of the item, however, tier 1s DO have a high chance of spawning on green items. Their likelihood is not just “low” for all qualities of curios.
You are providing an example for which you have already rolled some perfect combinations that you are conveniently leaving out of the equation. The odds of getting what you want aren’t just based on getting a curio with a max blessing and tier 4 perk to have another 2 tier 4 perks. The odds include what you have a chance of finding in the store as well (assuming that item creation for the stores works similar to how we re-roll and consecrate them).
Also not the point. If you are looking for a SPECIFIC perfect curio, there is no compromise. Especially when working on subsequent curios. Maybe you don’t NEED another toughness regen on your 2nd or third curio? I am speaking exclusively on specific perfect curios, with 0 compromise. The odds are pretty awful.
You should. It’s an ad hominem, and doesn’t really encourage much point in discussion if no one wants to read it yes? How would you know whether it addresses all your points or not if you never even read it all?
I don’t know about you but I have yet to see unstable power on a force sword of any tier. Let alone able to get unstable power or deflector at tier 3 on a high base rated weapon with at least one tier 3-4 perk I want.
It would be great if the devs could release in-depth information on this.
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been said already, lots of times, that the loop is too dependent on the loot system and not dependent enough on content releases. New boss fights, new weapons, new classes, etc, is what they should be depending on. The rest of their gameplay should just be fluid to facilitate that content, which is why people like the athanor so much more than anything else they’ve ever done; it allowed them to painlessly experience the game.
I really have no idea why they keep thinking that this reroll bs is what keeps people playing their games. The incredible irony here is that they made a great progression system with the athanor, but then tied it to a gameplay system that most people didn’t like, and now have have the opposite scenario with darktide, with similar outcomes.
step 1 : darktide gameplay
step 2 : athanor implementation
step 3 : profit!!
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Look if you link me a: Cooldown reduction (Not ability cooldown, just Cooldown), Sprint cost reduction, or Toughness Damage Reduction perk on a curio I change my mind but otherwise, I don’t believe they exist.
I asked a question and answered it, I even pointed out in the end that an item like this is likely very rare.
I think you didn’t get my point. My point is that your method is so bad it hurts. You should at least make some assumptions that are anywhere near reality and do some calculations based on that.
This here hurts, that up there. Show a damned 75+ rated Curio with a t1 perk, I dare you! I saw a t2 TWICE after reaching 30 and that was both on a low-rated Curio. Even if they do have a chance to appear it’s so low it could be disregarded. Even if you want to say “yeah they exist” the only thing we have to consider is how rare the t4 is.
If you need 2 specific stuff it’s not 1/… it’s 2/…, but if you actually want a specific 3 so it’s 3/… I don’t want to be rude, and consider probability the hardest “basic” math to wrap your head around, but this is like elementary school level mistakes. We can’t calculate it exactly, and have to make assumptions, but “there are 22 perks and 4 variants so a chance to get one is 1/88” is so far from reality that it’s laughable. At least tell me something like 1/10 or 1/20 for a perk to be t4 I’d go along with it!
Do you want to throw math around? At least google how to do it!
I’m sorry if offended you, but hot damn what you wrote made me go off the rails.
Edit: I guess the 4 people who like your comment didn’t catch your mistakes either. Good to see that probability enthusiasts here have a good understanding of basic math.
I think this is very true despite it being light hearted.
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I can link it again but:
I don’t really understand. Are you just saying this is a conspiracy and that some of the ones linked don’t exist? That curios don’t have sprint cost?
Well humor me then. How would you calculate rolling 3 20 sided dice with no repeats and what are your chances of rolling exactly a 1,2, and 3 on those three dice? In one roll? You can’t “save” rolls". The 1, 2, and 3 can show up in any order but they cannot repeat.
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The basis of the argument is: what makes somebody dislike the system? The answer is that they don’t have control over anything, except (now) for the initial weapon choice. Trying to math up the rng doesn’t help, because people just plainly want to be able to experiment freely, and the current system disallows that (and if you try to argue against that then I know for a fact that you’re just trying to be contrarian for no reason). Math has nothing to do with it. People want a deterministic system, not one with better odds.
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Good to see we are down to 20 now from 22. At least you could have said ups a mistake, but it looks like a bit too much to ask. Otherwise, I’ve never seen sprint cost reduction, I’ve seen sprint efficiency, but not cost reduction. If you show me a curio with it I believe you.
It’s unclear based on what you wrote that the dice don’t repeat or if you don’t want to roll repeats.
If it shouldn’t repeat it’s (3/20)(2/20)(1/20) if it can’t (3/20)(2/19)(1/18).
Oh, I’ve just seen soo many comments on threads that started with some bad probability calculation saying “Yeah that’s it!” I developed a prejudice.
You must be trolling 
There’s 22. I know you say people are bad at math and stuff… but I don’t think you can count my friend. I am not going to boot up the game because that would require installing it but if you disagree with the list/website and say they made a mistake sure, send another source then.
Well Darktide doesn’t allow repeats right? I haven’t seen them. So now imagine you have one of the dice is A-Z and doesn’t have numbers. And you need to roll it simultaneously. And you need a 1, a 2, and an A. Any other letter is a failure.
Dude, just stop. This is getting ridiculous. You are talking out of your… I’ve seen threads and threads, asking where the toughness damage reduction trait is. I would be more inclined to believe you if you said 21, but as I said I have NEVER seen that 3. I’ve kept open the possibility for you or anyone else to prove me wrong, go do it.
A link to the site that was actually linked in one of the threads asking for where the trait is and where everyone agreed it probably doesn’t exist isn’t going to persuade me.
Edit: No seriously, go boot up the game go to hadron and start rolling on a Curio you can freeroll on and take a screenshot once it comes up. It would take less then 15 minutes.
This actually made me laugh. Do your own math, and at least google probability calculation. I’m also fine with you not throwing numbers around.
So it should be easy for you to find a link/source with the real list of curio perks right?
Well if it’s all just basic elementary school math it should be easy for you to do right? Especially since the way you talk is like that of an angry kindergartner. The odds, as one fraction and percentage, as one die with 26 sides, letters A-Z, and 2 “19 sided dice” as you believe, with specific numbers and no repeats possible. Lets even do it with 3. So we want rolls to be:
A, 1, 2
B, 3, 4
C, 5, 6
What are the chances of getting those combinations? As one fraction. Should be easy for you right?
When people make arguments about the statistics, it’s just pointing to the greater issue, being the rng is creating a poor experience because it’s taking away agency. It’s easy to get carried away trying to argue about the details, but the fact is, is that it’s being felt widely among the playerbase as being a poor experience. People want to be able to freely try things out, but the current system is set up in opposition to that.
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Fear of being wrong my friend…? Again proving me wrong would take 15 minutes. Go on, do it. Who knows sprint cost reduction might actually exist! Not toughness damage reduction tho. Everyone would be running that. Do you actually play this game, or are you just here trolling?
Are you actually going with this after I pointed out how basic a mistake you made? After I was willing to entertain your silly little dice example? Get lost, and do your own math.
Oh, and don’t reply to me again until you find the toughness damage reduction trait on a curio. There is no point in arguing with someone who wouldn’t even entertain the possibility that he might be wrong.
Edit: Sorry Rainman it wasn’t targeted at you I was writing a reply for you when the other comment came up.
No, I am just unwilling to install the game. If you had no fear you would find a source that has the number of perks. The website I am referencing could be very well be wrong. But without another source, shrug it’s the one I am using.
Sounds like to me you can’t put your money where your mouth is and do the calculation that’s got you all hot and bothered.
This is pretty much how I feel about “Trying new things”. It’s only on the dime of the RNG if I can make a build revolving around a crafted weapon or not.
V2 got away with it because builds boiled down to rerolling with manageable RNG until you obtained the combination you wanted. Also no locking trinkets to characters which was huge in completing builds since have a few good trinkets had you set for 3/5 items in your gear.
DT has large blessing pools, high variances between gear power, no gear share, and locking blessings. All add up to many hurdles to jump for players.
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