If I really come off as insufferable to you, I’ll drop this then. Thanks and apologies.
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I didn’t expect this. Thanks and apology accepted.
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If you are talking about actually perfect blessings you would need thousands of hours for one perfect curio with the current set up. Chances are ~1/614000
That’s max blessing, two max perks. 22 perks with 4 tiers and 26 blessing combinations. Let alone doing it on 4 different characters 4 more times. And again for potentially DLC classes.
For path for exile the point is you have a mass web of class points that is the focus. Even borderlands or other looter shooters a lot more is defined on the characters or sub class items. They have character point systems and much higher class levels. In darktide it’s one choice out of 3 every 5 levels and comparatively less divergence.
For PoE, borderlands, etc. You do new game pluses and still just keep playing the game. It’s not the same as doing the same maps. Darktide is more similar to left for dead, deep rock galactic etc. And the reason their loot system doesn’t work is it doesn’t match the whole game. If you could get to level 120 in darktide and had an 80 hour campaign and new game pluses and hybrid classes and such and loot has levels and kept getting better, I wouldn’t care about max gear or anything. But it is not those games.
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The goal isn’t, just to beat the highest difficulty. It’s to try new things and see what’s most effective. If the game is too easy on the hardest difficulty with max gear they have a balancing issue and need to make the game harder and perfect gear more reasonably attainable. Otherwise you have balance issues with players lucky enough to get them vs those that don’t.
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This is basically talking beside the my point, but I entertain you if you break down how you managed to land on ~1/614000.
I see you are giving it another shot at an argument to aRPGs being a bad example, let’s see if this holds.
I disregard borderlands out of hand, treat it as if I give you the point that it’s sufficiently dissimilar since I don’t know enough about it to argue otherwise.
Hm… PoE doesn’t have a new game+, if you are first time player you finish the campaign that is a 60h tutorial in which you get introduced to several game modes (that basically work as separate games in a game that you can sink hundreds of hours into) and get introduced to maps that is the core endgame.
Most players end up in maps and endgame usually means farming the same exact map for over 100+ times maybe changing it up to do another 100+ times next. Maps are shorter to complete, but you run them more. Others might end up running the same boss over and over again it’s pretty resource intensive, if you managed to do it without dying to many times (since deaths per map or bossfight are limited even in softcore) it’s worth it.
PoE might have a pretty famous web of class points, but most builds are centered around game-changing uniques (some you can even socket into your talent tree). You can get some build started with only a bit of investment, or non at all, but it’s rare and considered op if they are able to clear the so-called pinnacle content in the game (hard mode end game bosses) or if they are too effective at clearing maps quickly. Other builds might need chase items to be anywhere near usable.
I’d say the point of PoE is the incomprehensible depth the game has (there is always one more obscure game system, item interaction or weird rare unique to make a build around or that can modify your existing one in strange ways), the unfinishable amount of content (if you start playing now I think you need years of daily play to try out half the stuff the game has to offer even if they’d stop releasing new content right now), and the endless layers of better gear you can acquire.
Since my main point still is that there can be a loot system comparison between aRPG and what we currently have in DT, I don’t think this matters. I think we can agree that DT would be better with an 80 hour campaign and my point isn’t lost if we remove the grind for the last 20 levels from D2 or PoE.
I’m still not buying that my comparisons between aRPGs and DT are bad.
Wow this thread turned into a right sh** show lol.
The game doesn’t respect peoples time or effort. Why do you think the reviews are so bad. Like a system that takes this long would be fine in an MMO, but for a shooter like this you shouldn’t need to spend THOUSANDS of hours grinding. The base of this game is AMAZING. The gun play and melee are freaking awesome. Visuals are absolutely incredible. Obviously there must be a problem somewhere if reviews and player counts are so low. Maybe I’m wrong and the loot system is totally fine. I don’t know. All I know is this game is getting really boring for me never getting any new stuff and having to go through 100000 layers of RNG all the time. There doesn’t feel like there is any progression. Just my opinion though.
I just don’t get why games these days always want to take 100% of your free time, basically wanting to be a 2nd job to really get anywhere. I don’t want to only play one game all day every day.
Some are saying that getting bad RNG is a skill issue? Dafuq? What am I missing here?
Anyways, the long and short of it is the haves are cool with this system, the have nots don’t like it.
I don’t expect anything to change in regards to the loot system so I guess I’ll just be a super casual player, and go back to VT2. oh well.
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I don’t think the loot system is fine, it’s pretty rough currently.
You are still getting new stuff in VT2?
I’ve only got like 100 hours in VT2 (I’ve got about 250 hours in DT in a much shorter amount of time, DT is just my preferred setting than VT2) so I’m not even close to maxing out my gear lol. So ye, get new stuff every few matches.
Yeah, you have a lot to look forward to in VT2 for you. Maybe twice that before you can craft everything depending on the difficulty you play, it also has years of content update behind is it’s pretty packed.
I don’t find I like to measure progression on games completed (that thankfully dt2 tracks) instead of hours played, but I think that after 250h in DT you should still have a lot of new stuff to play around with.
Based on your initial post you measure gear by ratings and that isn’t always a good idea my k12 has a 322 base rating and with opening salvo and high damage/stability/stopping power, there is nothing to complain about, you might just be sitting on some gems as well. Otherwise, maybe try a new class you might find it fun after you learn the ropes with it.
PS: I meant the tips in good spirits, it wasn’t aimed to diminish your experience or concerns with the game.
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Ye, that’s true enough tbf. I don’t know maybe I need to look into what I’ve got a bit more.
Tbf I’m pretty happy with my staff. Just melee and curios that’ve been getting on my nerves for far too long. I just keep getting stitched up with blessings and perks. RNG has always hated me in every game I’ve ever played XD
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Ouch, a psyker player. Well if you are looking for a better force sword it might be the worst RNG the game has to offer, so it’s kind of both bad and good news in a way. I’m blessed with luck to have a pretty good FS, but I usually run some random dueling sword for increased mobility.
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Tbf the goal should be “to have fun”. If poeple have to be effective to have some sort of fun, idk… it´s not something i personally need. Beating a challenge is way more attractive. And yeah, some others just want to troll around or so, who knows?!
Atleast it´s important, that the core-gameplay is fun, no matter the other expectations poeple have.
Perfect gear isn´t needed and i think it´s a good deal imo how stuff is handled. The blessings-patch made the game too easy, but being like “You need build X, gear Y, blessing Z” shouldn´t be a thing.
We can clear stuff with 360+ gear, even 300 or less if you want. Maybe not everyone is able to do so, but then yes, those poeple can get better gear to outweigh the skillgap. And this gear still don´t need perfect stats or blessing Z to shine.
It´s what you and others want, not what the game forces on you. And here we´re back at the fun and the question “Who do you want to cater?”.
I´m up for anything which helps to progress into the direction of “perfect gear”, but it shouldn´t be held out just randomly as it has been a thing in V2. And it shouldn´t be available asap.
Either we´ve some sort of a real endgame-loop with permanent progress, or FS should get ride of all of it and focus on content. Both of it will be healthier while looking at the playernumbers than leaving players without any “reasons to play” behind.
I know poeple like you or me will still play. You for the godrolls, i play just for fun. But sadly yes… the most players just can´t play without permanent goals, achievements and other stuff these days.
And tbh… i bought stuff aswell, upgraded it etc… and i´m just on 260h and already deleted chars / started them again with friends that bought the game yet. I´ve also never logged in or used the app to check the armory…
So call it luck, but i´ve already a lot of blessings even T4 ones. And i´ve a bunch of really good 370+ rolls, about 10 - 380 weapons.
The current system is in a decent state and you´ll get a lot of stuff. But of course, if you´re seeking for 1 thing only, just to waste all your ressources, you´ll be a loser probably.
EDIT: Btw it´ll get easier and easier to get your perfect gear with any blessing you collect. It´s just a matter of time. Even Melk has good stuff these days to fill your collection. It´s nothing but playing the game and checking out some stuff here and there.
And just a question in my mind… how many poeple here have actually played ARPG´s for a longer duration?
I mean, just take Diablo 3 as example… the playerbase is huge, but you´d no real control about loot besides the scripted legendaries from the act 1-5 chests, which you could farm. The rest was pure RNG and even rerolling slots came later and still locks the other stats. Ancient gear came after years and could still roll stats you don´t want. The only real permanent progress was the paragon-level and maybe upgrading stones via g-rifts.
And yet again, the playerbase is huge and dozens of poeple will play D4 aswell.
I do know that reasons why it works there better than here, it already starts with a star-icon on the minimap instead of an RNG armory or chests you get AFTER the mission. But seriously the way can be the goal… the gameplay just have to be attractive enough.
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Yup, the progression is still garbage and the crafting system is still garbage. Still a negative review for me.
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Don’t let him frighten you. Crafting in VT2 is a breeze now and you get red items fairly generously.
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There are 22 perks on curios with 4 tiers.
There are 26 potential blessings combinations for curios.
So forgetting everything else if I wanted a specific T4 perk that’s 1/88. 22*4. Now there’s 3 perks but you can swap one out, so that’s 1/88 * 1/87 (because you can’t roll duplicates). Which is 1/7656. Now if you want a specific blessing as well that’s 1/26 * 1/7656. Which is 1/199056. Which is a 0.0005023…% chance. The ~1/614000 is assuming you get it without rerolling. Now, this isn’t the whole story either. Blessing quality, how high the blessing is affects the likelihood it seems (based on users with auto clickers) of the likelihood of getting a tier 4. Which makes the odds worse. Additionally, the rarity of the curio also affects the tiers of the perks. (Profane to green, to blue, etc.) When a curio is re-rolled automatically as part of consecration it seems to be using the prior item rarity for determining what tier the perk should be (I don’t have a lot of data on this one). Additionally, based on auto clicker dating using re rolls with curios of the same blessing type if a T4 perk already existed it was 5 times less likely (requiring more clicks) to get a second tier 4 perk. Now, assuming this is true (hard to say whether it is or isn’t). If this is true, it fits the standard definition of “predatory” because it is using hidden factors and probabilities to make things WORSE for the player and most would not dig in to figuring out why or how, and there is no transparency from the developers to suggest the odds or how they work (you would think if people stated several times why the math is so anti-player they would clarify because they would have nothing to hide).
But even if we avoid all that and just look at needing to potentially go through 199056 curios to get what you want, you would still need to potentially do that 3 times on one character. And across 4 characters with no shared inventory or resources, you are looking at potentially 2,388,672 curios. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to sift through over 2 million curios to get what I want. Even staunch defenders of the RNG system agree that the system doesn’t permit perfect weapons. They just argue that perfect items are irrational to chase because they are not needed to beat the highest difficulty. Which is a different bag of issues and arguments.
So, and this may be player strategies/goals, but I played PoE with a couple characters and the game has new islands and expansions for the story. My point is a 60 hour campaign, if you will, for an RPG, the “end state” is to beat it. You can do the simulacrum and fight endless waves if you want, and I don’t know the stats on Path of Exile players but my point is for me the “end” is beating the campaign, and achieving max level.
https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree
^This puts to shame any sort of Darktide class leveler.
Same with this if you are talking of an aRPG.
There is a lengthy campaign that casual players can play through, get enjoyment off of and then make a new player, stop, do endless waves, new game pluses, etc. Randomzied non-perfect loot makes a lot of sense since as you level up, so do the enemies, and so do the loot. Everything keeps changing with bigger and bigger numbers.
Darktide does not fit this model, it is a game at odds with itself and doesn’t know what to do with itself. It has small 20-40 minute runs on the same maps without a lengthy campaign. Once you hit level 30 all the enemies stay the same, the loot doesn’t get more powerful, and you stay the same. Casual players will get bored very quickly needing new maps, story, weapons, classes etc. If you are playing for difficulty and damnation is trivial for you to beat since you don’t feel the need to get perfect items, then it’s not like cataclysm from Vermintide 2 where you need to test your mettle and reactions and skill using a loadout other players have the same access to, to try and beat it. It’s just grinding for the sake of grinding.
A lot of the player base for Darktide came from Vermintide 2. And just like communities from Remnant from the Ashes, Divinity Original sins 1+2, pathfinder aRPG, etc. it’s more about sharing and testing builds, builds that someone could look up at and relatively easily replicate it and test it. With the amount of RNG it’s effectively useless. Someone could show me a cool build that involves T4 power cycler and infernus and needs to hit certain break points but I am discouraged to even attempt it. Even people who grinded away at warframe for 4000 hours don’t like the grind in this game.
The other important difference is path of exile is free to play! It is generally expected that games that are free will have high grind. And even then path of exile at least has trading systems and mountains of loot you get showered in. aRPGs are often not about skill. It’s just left clicking to attack and using abilities. Again, a lot of aRPGs have several skills that scale with your character that aren’t determined on loot. Yes there are sockets in PoE but regardless to the items I am using if my gem is a certain level, that’s it. I can play a necromancer witch, and sure some items can help but I can do pretty much what I need to, and there will be too much enemy variety to really care about break points and at varying levels, as well as none that really change up my skills or play style.
“Tide” based games are very different. They demand a lot of skill, there are set difficulties, very few enemy types and they demand different play styles (disablers, armored units, berserkers, ranged, etc.).
So yes, aRPGs are a very bad comparison to make with Darktide. I agree I think they are trying to go for something similar to borderlands (similar loot system) or Destiny (also similar loot system) but the way enemies scale, difficulties, missions, skill, etc. are all very different. There’s a reason DRG, left 4 dead, etc. don’t have those kinds of loot systems and why horde based co-op shooters are more just frustrating to have high grindy systems.
And even if you were right about everything and I was wrong, just from the small poll done here on the forums 3/4’s of the player base think the game is too grindy and would change the loot system. The easiest way in my opinion to solve it is to just remove the locks. Or have a resource cost to swap the locks from one blessing/perk to another.
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Fully agree. I got all the reds I cared about pretty fast, even before they buffed their drop rate.
Based on player reviews and a poll, most find the crafting system detracts from their fun. Even with the patch, and a 20% sale overall steam reviews and concurrent player sessions haven’t changed much. There’s a reason most claim and cite the locks and heavy RNG as what deters them from playing the game.
If perfect gear isn’t needed, then why not just make it easier for everyone to get then with less grind time? If we agree the core gameplay can be what retains players.
If the game is too easy then they should scale the difficulties and gear better. I love looking at build recommendations. So do others:
https://www.ranalds.gift/builds
Darktide’s systems essentially make a website like this impossible^
I think this is why cataclysm was a great idea. A difficulty that doesn’t offer any mechanical rewards better than legend but is there solely for a high difficult challenge and the true masochists, and it would be assumed you go there with max gear.
So it took me 600-800 hours to get pretty much all red items. How long should it take to get perfect items? Because current systems for darktide make it practically impossible.
It’s not matter of time to get perfect gear. Not unless you have thousands upon thousands of hours you’re planning to spend.
I used to play aRPGs. Got bored of them as I got older.
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Tbh i just can´t take those claims seriously.
The only poll that matters was the one FS made by themselves. And even there i doubt they reached “all” players, some might even made multivotes.
And given to steam-reviews… there are multiple reasons why poeple do not recommend the game, from bugs over missing endgame until you meet the real currency shop or the missing crossplay, everything is there. And even those ~50k poeple that made a review are just a minority in general.
The only thing i would assume, is that the most “crafting is bad” reviews come from players who invested hundreds of hours into V2. They´re addicted to it and just want pretty much a copy & paste version.
As i´ve said, a lot of poeple need something, “the way is the goal”… And again as i´ve said, i see 2 ways to keep the the playerbase healthy.
- Get ride of stats and just focus on content. PvE games live with content and permanent content patches instead of taking care for side-content and its issues would keep the players engaged with the game.
or
- Come with a decent endgame-loop that lets the players progress permanently.
The basic is there for the 2nd claim. They can still add new difficulties or different game-modes on top, where you could get stuff to combine your blessings, unlock slots or upgrade percentages. Not saying it´ll 100% happen, but it´s possible.
And another as i´ve said is… that it´ll become easier to get the stuff you want automatically. Just stop focusing on that 1 thing. Take what´s possible and suddenly your blessings-collection will grow pretty fast. And once it´s nearly done, you´ll have an easier time.
Tbh that´s up to you and others. I don´t find it fun to check out youtube, twitch or such websites, just to let them tell me what i should play.
Testing and experimenting by myself is way more fun and that´s something i would recommend to everyone these days. Players might find something that actually suits them better than those recommended metachoices, like being a one-trick-pony on a champion in League of Legends. Also the experience and game-knowledge will automatically grow and they´ll become better than copy&paste what others invented.
And there is no need for a deep theorycraft, just trying around…
I guess you´ve been lucky in V2 then, because i don´t have pretty much all red items even with 1000 hours.
Also it clearly depends what you understand under “perfect gear”. Ofc normally you would say it´s 380 mods + everything T4 imo. But here again, do you NEED it? Or do you just WANT it?
There might be one or another breakpoint between the gap of T3 / T4, i know only one on the revolver yet. But in general it´ll probably not matter much if you miss some percentages or not.
And just for the last time an “again”… we had something different in Vermintide yes. But it´s just a short way too look at the playernumbers and to see, that the game has been niche aswell, if not more niche… the time will show it.
So the “endgame” didn´t attract so many players, and part of it might have been the instareds taking all progress away, dunno…
Doing different with DT is welcome. Still don´t know what will happen, but the base to build upon is here. I get your wishes for perfect gear and stuff, but i´m more glad that this game isn´t just a copy & paste version of V2 just in another skin, otherwise i could just play Vermintide, but sadly i´ve some red items there, so i only jump in to play new content for a handful of runs and then i´m tired of it once again, because there is no variety, no new options, nothing… Only Chaos Wastes brings variety to the gameplay-loop and i´m sure that´s the reason it´s so popular.
So yes, to keep poeple engaged with DT and the playerbase healthy over time, which is something FS clearly wants since we finally have servers, a different system than V2´s is needed. And that´s what we got here. Fine-tuning is still needed and some materials to play around the crafting-restrictions for those who´re addicted for min/max, but we´ve a solid base.
First of all sorry, but your method is horrible.
There are 19 traits I’m pretty sure, there are 4 tiers but getting t1 is basically impossible and t2 is extremely unlikely, same with blessings.
Go for something like 1/15 for blessing and 1/10 for t4 trait, or something like that. We don’t care about the t1-3 probabilities anyway.
I’ll do a small one for you okay?
We have a curio with the maxed blessing and 1 t4 trait we like, but when upgrading it once we rolled +XP on it, is it worth upgrading again? What are our chances?
1/10 for the t4 trait, 8 out of 19 traits are something we would consider good on a perfect Curio. That’s (7/17)*(1/10) = 7 /170 = ~0.0411 or 4.1% if you like. Even if we go for 1/20 that might be worth it if the base item is as rare as I suspect… or not. It is at least 1 damnation run worth of resources.
If you want more math pulled out of me have another dig at it with a bit more effort. I personally don’t like calculating probabilities much, it can get pretty complicated.
Haven’t fully read all this, but taking a quick look it seems you are throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks. I know it isn’t perfect and they are different genres, but I think you are missing my point. Please reread my previous posts about the comparisons, and why I made them.
Hello.
For example, I spent a lit more than 1,2 millions to have a decent Zarona with Brunt armory, so yes it’s really rng.
But the worst, I think, is blessing craft and upgrade.
I was proud to up my weap to legendary but I gain a first blessing (LVL 1) and at legendary a second blessing LVL 1.
Obviously, there’s a big problem here as this **** rng system can destroy all hope you can have in a hard-earned item. And when you spend many components and money to upgrade some stuff, you should have the opportunity to upgrade it as you wish! Even more when a full mission doesn’t give you enough money to buy a basic weapon.
Edit : that’s even worse, I tried to up few weapons (4) and the second blessing you obtain is based upon the first one…I mean you obtain the exact same lvl on your second? Where is real rng then?
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