I’d start my reply by saying that I think you have pretty good points.
I don’t agree since FS could have tempered expectations by mitigating this issue. Discussion would be very different if FS would have come out in an interview saying it’s a loot system with quite endless “progression” instead of the one quoted sometime where they said some very different things about attachments and such. There would still be arguments against the system, mismatched expectations, and such, but it would be a lot different.
I think you are correct. I mainly argued before that Diablo-like or MMO like progression systems aren’t bad they are just different.
I feel like more impactful traits and more varied blessings are definitely an improvement.
I also find the attribute system on the weapons a great step up. Mainly a part where even a top gear can’t get maxed (80%) stats in everything. It gives more variety to the weapons. They could have even been way more aggressive with it with an even lower cap (360 rating maybe), with the game balanced around that of course.
Curio itemization is also something I personally like. You can tune your stats quite heavily in different directions. We kind of lost the more impactful blessings (it’s called traits there if I remember correctly) that VT2 had, but having the ability to stack up to +75% Health or Toughness or going heavy stamina + block cost reduction is pretty interesting, quantity is a quality in itself. The variety could be a bit better but there are more than 6 useful or at least interesting traits you can play around with.
I usually really like layers of RNG, PoE, and D2 uses them heavily. I would concentrate more on actual chance, input, etc… I don’t think having the same chance with 1 or 20 layers of rng if the player’s end goal is getting the best item possible. Maybe a slight annoyance.
On the other hand, the layers provide a few advantages including the ability to stop wasting resources mid-way. It is also something that enables the long “end game grind” for the system where even if you have something near perfect there is always that +1% crit that can keep grinders in the loop.
I just trying to say layers aren’t bad by themselves, don’t bite. I know it (might) feel(s) bad when the expectation is to get specific (hard to obtain) stuff.
This was posted when the only progression available was the hourly reset store and melk with capped emperors gift. Describing that as a lottery is pretty close. I don’t actually see the comment that the designers had the intent to create something like this, but that they are aware that currently is like that. If the intent was to create a lottery with zero player input then I don’t know what to say about them without swearing.
Maybe it’s just me not willing to accept that FS actually just wanted some lottery system with 0 player input with some minimal mitigation by blessing/trait swapping, but it just sounds so bad it’s unbelievable.
At least if this is the case then we can be sure they actually listen since the current system is a way different system. When I talk about design I usually think about games balanced around and enriched by everyone in the pug running something a bit sub-par giving a bit of variety and lifting some expectations from players of what others should be able to do, but I was talking about loot and chase items too so that’s on me. I mean chase items can be a part of a lottery system, but that’s just horrible in and of itself unlike the current one.
Poe and diablo are kind of built around the idea that you can also trade stuff. I really cant remember any league where I got my bis stuff in poe just strictly from farming them. If you really know what you are doing it will take most less than a week to level / get build going.
So i think its little bit unfair to compare these types of rngs strictly to apples to apples
Even trading things like a headhunter or mage blood isn’t something you farm out in a week without a no-life playstyle on league release with 1k hours of game knowledge (then if you have a team you can do it in maybe a day as streamers do).
There is a point in every build guide starting with if it’s a league starter or not. You sometimes have to play something else before you farm out gear for the desired build.
Also, you getting an actual “bis” in poe is near impossible for some items. Just watching some standard league mirror crafting can get my head spin from the amount of currency burned, and the outcome is sometimes something like: “Hmm… It’s not the thing I wanted, but it’s good for that one specific obscure build and there is no other item like this in the game so I keep it and put it up for mirror service.”
And there is SSF…
For PoE implying you know what you are doing means like 1k hours of playtime. Otherwise you can do that, if the desired build isn’t something like power kinetic/siphon wander scion that currently needs a lot of help to get started. Sucks if that’s your prefered playstyle.
I know, I agree, but it fits so well as a good example of why layered RNG, non-deterministic progression, chase items, and endless progression isn’t the spawn of satan enjoyed only by the crazy and the addicted.
So “looter shooter” and MMORPG keeps popping up as comparison to DT with words like chasing loot and what not.
Let’s use WoW as the MMORPG template (although this goes for most levelling-based “rpgs” the last couple of years, even single player ones)
In WoW you should never get attached to an piece of gear unless you are max level. That all switches up when the next content is released with more character levels of course, but until then you spend your time playing end game content at max level and hope you get lucky.
Most of the time the “end game item” you’re looking for can be found in a raid. It takes hours to complete the raid, the drop chance is 2% and there are 10/40 people with a claim on the item. Ones you’re done the raid is locked for a set amount of time (time-locking your next attempt).
The odds of you getting the item sucks
The item will become irrelevant on the next update due to raised level cap
but, when you get the item you want, you know exactly what you get (always the same stats)
I don’t care too much for those games myself but I can summarize it as extreme grindy but reliable results.
The “Looter shooter”
The most well known example is any of the Borderlands games (I have personal experience from 1, 2 & pre-sequel, but not the later ones).
This is all bout grind. You can play all content to your hearts content and get as many or as few drops of the weapon you want that the game rng allows. If you’re done with the main story (and DLCs) you mostly stick around (on that character) to grind for gear improvements. Most off that gear comes from end-game content. All weapons and shields are made up by quite a few components and you can’t control which combination of parts you get. The different parts alter the way the weapon work in minor or extreme ways (anything from god-like to trash, depending on combinations).
The chance of you getting exactly the combination you what is abysmal
But, you don’t keep playing this game (on the same character) unless you’re in it for the grind
But, you know where to grind in order to get the drop you want, and you know it will drop at roughly your level
Darktide’s progression system is definitely closer to the Borderlands franchise. Sh*t is as random as it gets. But Darktide is not a looter shooter.
You don’t get showered in loot (in Borderlands after a boss fight you only check the drops of top rarity)
The only “agency” you have to chase for loot is the store and crafting, and that’s all RNG
The “perfect” weapon is pretty much as rare as in Borderlands, The only difference is that in Darktide you spend your time purchasing greys, upgrading rarity, re-rolling perks, and managing your inventory. In Borderlands you spend it repeating specific encounters instead.-
(as a bonus) Darktide isn’t WoW either. It doesn’t have a levelling system similar to the MMORPGs, so you’re not expected to toss away your gun every 2 - 5 hours of gameplay.
So, what are we talking about again? I personally despise all three systems mentioned above. And no, it’s not any easier to get what you want in those games it’s just more reliable, in a sense. In WoW it’s a matter of percentage, but that’s it. In Borderlands the entire game is based around loot and lot-grind and as long as you’re levelling (max 72? BL2) you keep tossing out your current gear every few levels, else you won’t do enough damage.
As an honorary mention:
I can’t speak for PoE as I never played it (but it’s based around seasonal “resets”, I think?), but if the argument is that Darktide should have a shtty design because other games have a shtty design, then I’m pretty sure you should re-evaluate your stance. That argument was thrown around by someone else defining the system as well (won’t mention names), basically that “most games today implement excessive grind and don’t respect player agency, so why should Darktide do it”. If you believe something similar, then we can simply leave it at that.
No but those are mostly called luxury items for a reason and nearly every build cant work without them. Mageblood maybe less so but still many chase items like tyraels might are really not needed to make a build work.
Yeah it sucks but if I also have a good currency farmer I can most likely just trade for many of the components before I even start levelling the corresponding character.
I at the very least have some agency on what I need in terms of currency to make it happen.
But the argument is that it is a looter and somehow all of of us who are complaining in the same vein are unfortunate, while the few who defend the system turn out not to even understand what we want, i.e. the agency to get specifi combos.
Glaive, you mean? Again, if you wanted to roll red equivalents in the beginning, it could be a lot of work. But the point with the DT is that it takes a lot more and it is a lot more convoluted to get there - and it’s orange equivalents.
Note also that the VT2, which is not a looter, practically showers you with the items - 1 chest per mission run, extras for deeds and similar, 1 chest every 2 mission due to levelling… so you get at least 9 items every two mission, all of them the DT equivalent of 370-380 + perks/blessings, skewed towards 380, and they can be salvaged to change the ones you want. Common items are shared, resources are shared.
The only aspect where the DT is friendlier is that it provides you with a lot more resources when you fail the mission.
I would have wanted what you call variety before I started playing the game.
The idea of levelling another character in this game makes me sick. I find totally unappealing the idea of having another shitload of uninteresting weapons just to say “we have lots of weapon types” and building towards them, at least in the current system.
We can agree on the second one. I would not put it as “only”, though. The fact is that you simply don’t understand why that means “blocking” to so many of us and it goes down to gaslighting us. We have no agency to get the stuff that we want so that we can play the game in the style that we want.
The mere idea that Fatshark might/will create a red equivalent one day makes me willing to engage even less with the system - and they do have tendency to change important stuff overnight. The idea that they might even charge the real money for it is also not something that is making me feel kindly towards them.
I said it was a valid design decision. I did not say it was a good one for this game.
The decision is objectively wrong because it puts unsurmountable barriers to the interaction between items and their impact on the gameplay. Your failure to appreciate that aspect, similar to that of the other few regular posters - trolls to be honest, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt - does not make this any less valid.
Most of the people who play DT and whom I know from VT2 know that these games are about skill and tactics. However, the system as is is BLOCKING us from getting to the skills part beyond the most basic level because the time investment to get even half of the items we would like to have is huge. It’s like putting us all in Formula One cars, but then some people get spoilers the size of sails and the others monster truck suspension and no way to get the same equipment.
You really should not look at everything so black and white. This put you in the ranks of the other trolls and I am sorry to have invested so much time into this reply.
Fatshark knows. Fatshark has its ineffable design that it wants to stick to no matter what. The cesspool of a system that many of us hate and despise was not designed by accident or incompetence, but with intent. I will give Fatshark the benefit of the doubt that they honestly thought it would be a nice engagement tool (VTs were engaged into despite a lot less player hostile system), as opposed to other comments on the forum.
I thought they wanted to actually improve the system when they acknowledged the issues. I knew I was wrong to presume so when the subsequent Dev blog post was published.
Nish wants to defend the system by pointing out that we are hypocritical whiners who want everything unlocked all at once, obviously. Because 100 hours invested in one character in the game is obviously nothing because we have unrealistic expectations.
And these are the wrong games for this. We have issue with the very concept in the chase items in this game. The high end items should be here so that we can play the game, not so that we can brag about it or play some kind of god mode. No items in these games are trully god modes, but they can help a lot to perform actions in a certain way.
We want the agency to play the game in different styles in a reasonable timeframe and if the chase item approach is the only way to even try a certain style, the whole aspect of the game is blocked from the players.
This game has no pity system, apart from the reroll cost. And there is also the question of what kind of threshold the full pity system would have if ever one appears. With the number of potential weapons and character combinations, how can one experiment with anything for real within the current RNG cesspool? So, yes, the variety is blocked from the players.
We should bow to the ineffable design, of course. We are not worthy of the items so generously provided by this game. (TBH, kind of more W40k characterization and story than the DT narrative.)
The existence of this whole discussion is just hilarious to watch. It’s unfathomable how this sorry excuse for a progression / gear acquisition system has people defending it. Like, yeah, the RNG is now slightly less because the random stats of a weapon are now more often higher than before. Because now you can at least “work with” what you get. When did this become the standard? This game will never, I repeat, never get anything even remotely resembling a modern loot system that respects the player’s time, because it works against the monetization scheme they built a game around. They don’t respect your time because that time equals the money they want to make.
The best thing one can hope for is “tolerable”, which is still a long way to go.
PoE is the best loot-based game and is wildly popular. Most people that like the genre are turned off because of the extremely long learning curve and intimidating complexity, not because of the extremely deep layers of RNG.
It does have seasonal resets, but even if you play on the standard league that isn’t reset (it also gets content updates each league, just not the league one) getting maxed gear is aspirational at best. See my previous post about crafting mirror-tier items on standard.
Just a few points here don’t want to quote everything one-by-one.
I don’t think 2% chance and then 1/4 with a once per week chance is something you would find reliable results. I wouldn’t dare to call it more reliable than the current DT system. Also, to be down to earth, you have a fair chance to play for a whole night trying to kill a boss and then not get anything useful.
If you would have told me that guilds use dkp or similar systems to mitigate randomness, or you can do gold runs you might have a point, but even there who knows… the item might never drop.
I played all of the borderlands games, but I quit before really getting into grinding. I don’t know enough about it to have any meaningful insight or understanding.
While Tyreal’s Might is actually hot garbage, Mageblood and Headhunter are build-enabling for a lot of builds each league, stuff that gets nerfed is a prime example of something that can still work with the luxury items. My argument was that there are different games where you are walled from different “builds” or “items” or have unobtainium gear and they are still enjoyed. Comparing chase items to rare blessings isn’t perfect but pretty close I think.
Yeah, if the basis is that you should get an enjoyable zealot build to speedrun heresy, people would call you crazy. Although I do agree it’s more agency, I don’t feel like these match. If you already have a hundred hours in a league you can pretty much just buy the base version of most builds, but it’s usually not" let’s do pinnacle content power level" stuff unless it’s the seasonal op build.
I wanted to comment on your whole post, but after this, I just do this one bit.
I didn’t say it’s an unrealistic expectation, based on what I wrote I think it sounds exactly like I find it pretty realistic and understandable. Edit: There is a big difference between saying that with the current system getting specific chase t4 blessing or maxing out the gear in 100h is a pretty unrealistic expectation, and saying people who wanted a system where that happens have unrealistic expectations.
Also, yes there are whiners who insult everyone who thinks their bad statistics and their bad points are above criticism.
Half of the point that I made several times defending the system is things like layered rng, endless grind, and chase items aren’t bad in and of themselves, and the other half is that bad-luck and actual good posts about how to improve the current system getting swarmed by people who just want the whole thing thrown out s***ing on every part of it with dishonest arguments usually by also insulting anyone (calling them crazy, addicts, shills, bad at math) who might enjoy thing like end-game loot progression is pretty annoying.
My argument about not completely throwing away the current one was that it would actually need a lot of work and I would rather see new classes maps and weapons since I’m pretty fine with just small tweaks to what we have now. You might not agree, but at least you could understand different preferences, right?
Let’s say that this is quite a lot better than a lot of the other stuff you wrote that I will accept as me misunderstanding your point due to the wording.
After having read so many posts with legitimate complains regarding this topic, I find it sad to see anyone suggesting or pleading for improvements. Fatshark has to be aware of the issues with this system. If they wanted to, they would solve it. And there are many ways to do it, beginning with a set of small adjustments to the current system to the complete overhaul. If the choice is binary, this or nothing, I would personally prefer having no system at all, just a dozen of premade variations for sale or even just the basic items, but that’s me.
I did understand your preferences and, of course, you have right to them. Personally, I just don’t think putting more of the missing/good stuff on such shitty foundation would be good - the lack of campaign and limited number of maps had originally been higher than the gear on my complaints list.
It might be a matter of wording, but I see improvements to the system as improvements to the system and I don’t see “throw the current system out the window have something entirely different” as improvement of the system. Although, yes you could argue that it would be an improvement to the game as you see it.
Well, this is the difference of preference and there could be an actual argument about this (that I currently don’t feel like having). I think most people who I mentioned getting annoyed by are in the same boat as you, as in what they want the system to be in the end, but it has to be teased out from under all the bad arguments and doomposting.
A “Hey, how about a progression with an end-goal of about 100h” getting copy pasted on every post is something I find preferable to what is happening now (doomposting and a lot of dishonest arguments), and I’m pretty sure it would be more productive.
There is a lot of difference between “This system is shitty” and “I’d prefer it to be this other way cos I hate systems like this, so I find the system’s direction to be shitty.”.
I also have a tiny fear that craping on some actual good stuff like the itemization system (without the randomness) might lead to some bad changes if FS listens to the very vocal people. There are some improvements that are actually worth praising instead of dismissing them cos RNG. I think they are more stubborn about stuff like this, but still.
How many hours should it take to get a chase item? What’s fair and reasonable to all players? People who paid for the game and want access to game changing features and ways of playing?
Even though there tends to be “grinders” vs “builders” I think there still has to be a reasonable amount. If it took 100,000 hours to get one “chase item” is that “reasonable”? I would hope not.
Chase items are usually exceedingly rare. Single rare blessings are far more common in darktide currently than the chase items I mentioned present in other games. In the case of targeted perfect items, I don’t really have numbers, maybe in a few months someone will collect enough data to get exact numbers on how they compare to other games.
I see the disconnect here is also expectation btw. A small numerical value doesn’t matter a lot but it does a little. People running around in an aRPG with less than max rolled health don’t see a problem, even though sometimes even a few hitpoints can matter. Same here, I might have survived a situation with +2% health between my 3 curios, but who cares? I will care a lot when a version of perfect one drops and get the dopamine rush, and I’m happy there are chances for improvement in gear to look forward to until then I’m fine.
It’s just a different mindset that’s all.
PS: I didn’t answer your question since I found it more like you making a point than an actual question.
ARPG isn’t a good comparison. In PoE I build my character and intentions based on level up and class choices and I find the best weapon to do that with, and never get attached to items knowing they will be obsolete soon.
In aRPG it’s also usually about getting through a campaign or story and trying to become as powerful as possible by the end of it.
Tide games are not that. They don’t have that many meaningful class changes, huge power differences depending on what you build and there’s no campaign to get through. It’s running the same missions over and over and in darktide specifically often even the exact same map. Darktide is more about trying different builds, testing breakpoints, and seeing what you can accomplish with your skill and load out. RNG chases are just frustrating and detract from that.
I did want an actual answer. For me, getting all max items I want around 600-800 hours in Vermintide 2 felt about right. In darktide, it would seem that’s not even enough for one item, let alone curios.
In PoE getting through the story is basically a long tutorial. Most people who actually keep the game running by buying packs are exactly those who like to experiment and try out new things running the same maps over and over and over and…
Apart from the fact that you have given a pretty bad argument as to why these two genres don’t compare, I find it pretty inconsequential. I was using arpg as an example of why the different RNG system also present here aren’t bad in and of themselves. In my previous post, I’ve also given an example from DT together with the aRPG one.
Okay, let’s give it a try. Let’s keep going at Curios for example. I think that on average you should get random perfect curio (meaning 2 maxed traits and blessing with no ordo docket and other such silliness) in around 100-150 games. So it’s like 50-75h and let’s say +10-20h of failed runs and +10h of just sitting around and let’s pump the base number up to 75-100h for good measure and we are around 100-140h of playtime on average for 1 perfect curio on one character with 1 selectable trait. That sounds fine to me as something I would consider a chase item.
To be precise: we all want something different that provides realistic player agency. I would add that the goal are the ‘god items’, in the sense of the VT reds, but that’s obviously misleading to many players since these items here are not providing as much agency as opposed to the skill. Whether it is achieved by cleaning the cesspool through improvements or by a completely new design, including the scrapping it altogether, I care not - the point is that with the last dev blog they made slight progress in one direction and major setbacks in two others. I will gladly comment on any non-cosmetic change that they do propose, but no sight of that.
As a remark, I would guess that one of the problems for Fatshark is the role of Melk in the overall design of the current system.
Yes you might skill in a specific direction or something and then you start grinding in the hope to get the gear-pieces that will assist what you chose. But you´ve to be really lucky aswell to get the stuff you want with stats you want.
The reality looks more like:
Skill stuff in the classtree
Play the game
Get a powerful legendary that doesn´t suit your actual build
Rebuild around that legendary or tweak your current build as much as possible
Find out that it´s also fun to play
Grind further to get better stuff for the current build or the one you wanted to start with
That´s actually the experience, and i´m sure about that, everyone had who ever played some sort of ARPG (Diablo, POE, Last Epoch, etc…).
This one and…
That one doesn´t even match each other tbh…
DT would do a great job getting ride of stats and focus on class / content-releases. Poeple would play it.
On the other hand yes, we´ve breakpoints, builds, etc… but all of them are highly limited and seriously not even close to be needed to deal with the highest difficulties.
But just looking at it let me highly doubt that FS´s first intention have been “We want to have a system with builds, breakpoints, etc…”. They just build it to give the players something to do, as the level phase is nothing else than gaining gameplay-experience. Overall it´s completely pointless looking at the game itself since the core-gameplay never changes and skill-ceiling is a thing.
I do get what poeple want. But it´s also that DT has a wider range of stats and possibilities than V2. You won´t even mention in 99/100 cases that you suddenly have or don´t have that breakpoint.
Those are a given. I want to isolate your issue with an RNGless crafting system with agency over picking blessings.
My heart goes out to them really, but that fault solely lies on the Management. It is not the fault of players if they demand a system that would respect their time more. It is not entitlement to want better with no random BS caveats coming out the side.
The problem is if you want near-perfect weapons falling like candy you will have a bad time. The thing is you don’t need that, it rarely changes the game. If you want to go for the perfect one then you have to grind and it is luck, like any other loot-based game .
I don’t think players like other players deciding what they need or don’t need. And maybe having to grind with luck is a bad thing.
Ahh so is is this it? We would lose the “Neuron Activation of seeing Loot” if we changed the system to no RNG? And game balance would be lost. These are the only reasons I could find.
I also think that the game is balanced around people running non-perfect items, and it does change the game a bit when everyone has something less than optimal on the team (I don’t want to argue if it is good or bad just that it does).
You don’t need it to clear max difficulty, it isn’t needed to play a specific playstyle, and +1% health isn’t something to worry about… That’s what I mean by you don’t need.
You are pretty insufferable here, implying that enjoying loot-based games is something only a person with a monkey brain would enjoy. There is nothing wrong with enjoyment born from a rare drop in a game.
Edit: Also, you linked my argument on top of why I’d prefer it not to be changed. I think it would lose around 6 months’ worth of new content. Why you are leaving that out?
I don’t see the disconnect here, game balanced around not running perfectly tuned gear doesn’t mean that there is a big difference between t3 and t4. An axe with anti-unarmored might be more optimal than one with anti-flak, but that doesn’t mean anti-unarmored doesn’t have upsides. Having t4 rending might help you hit one more breakpoint but it doesn’t break builds, other blessings will have even less impact between t3 and t4.
I think the limited blessing and trait swap means that people will have the same weapons optimal in different scenarios giving some spice to the pug experience. With the weapons so varied you just can’t expect other players with the same base weapon to deal with scenarios similarly. Overall “perfect” weapons tuned specifically to top player testing results would make the game very different.
STOP 