They have goopy gacha brain (GGB). They think if there’s no grind there’s no game.
The game is deep enough without needing to grind for extrinsic rewards. Intrinsic is enough. My source?
L4D2, TF2, CS
You can make arguments about cosmetics on TF2, or CS, but their impact on gameplay is equivalent to Fatshark’s respect for their players. Zero.
Jakal blatantly lied in his comments and ignored when people like brosg pointed it out.
If someone is spouting garbage and not acknowledging when they said something wrong, I’m ignoring everything they are saying.
Okay, I’m a returning player. I’ve noticed a few things. One is a ton of players just don’t care. They don’t even open chests, and I don’t just mean chests a little out of the way, I mean chests right next to them. They just walk right past them. Sometimes they don’t even pick up plasteel in front of them!
Noobs? Maybe, but seems like a lot of them doing it. On most of my runs lately, I picked up 90% of the plasteel and opened 100% of the chests, and the ‘slow lid’ has me down. Lid should leap open.
Also, there was a exploitable glitch to reclaim your resources while I was out of the game. It’s fixed now, but you could do something, switch characters, and BAM, get your resources back. Result is a ton of the older players have a massive stockpile now. Returning players and new players have 10 plasteel, 15k diamantine, and maybe 60k dockets.
Really sad I missed that exploit! It also worked with melk, so you could really stock up on blessings, or so I hear. If nothing else it would mean you could snag any weapon and test blessing combos effectively for free, while stocking up on blessing for all weapons, and then build up the real weapon later with good drops to skip locks.
So, that gives us noobs and the ‘super rich’ but I’d bet we also have a few who are just demoralized about the whole thing. Crafting is frustrating s#!t so they just don’t do it anymore and make do with whatever lands in their lap.
My personal social environment:
Out of 4 friends none is playing anymore. They all found crafting to tedious to engage with and largely ignored it. One asked me once how he could improve a certain weapon - I explained it to him and he decided it wasn’t worth the trouble. None said that the crafting has driven them away yet after hitting Lvl 30 with one or two characters they there wasn’t anything left to do.
Maybe if crafting was actually enjoyable it could’ve kept them longer? Maybe not - however the idea to keep casual players by unrewarding gambling hasn’t worked in this extremely narrow sample size.
My sister and my wife started playing to share a hobby with me. By now they find the gameplay cool they both have two lvl 30 chars and are now holding their own in heresy. They also ignore crafting.
So obviously this isn’t a relevant sample size but they all fall in the category of casual gamers who don’t post their opinions anywhere and none of them liked itemisation. They don’t hate it either - they ignore it.
Thus I am certain that a more deterministic and transparent crafting system that casuals and hardcore players alike would enjoy engaging with would be a win-win solution.
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not against changes to crafting, before someone decides to jump down my throat 
Since the crafting additions in patch 4, I’ve generally just found crafting to be alright. At the time, I was playing mostly Malice, I think, so resource acquisition was a large bottleneck.
While there was a variety of things I wanted to try out, I was performing fine and having plenty of fun with the weapons I had (and that continued to be the case going up the difficulties), so there was never a sense of urgency about getting new/better stuff
There’s a bunch of blessings that the game has thrown at me that I would never have considered having any use for; pre-patch 13 Devastating Strike probably being the biggest one for me - guy would I want to sacrifice cleave or damage for that. Then the game gives you Shred/Devastating Strike and you get that “Huh, maybe there’s something here” moment.
I don’t really mind the whole “Here’s a thing, make it work 
” approach. The odds of workable things could be better but I’ve enjoyed those experiments. At this stage, I think I’ve tried most things so until new weapons/blessings are added, there’s not much weird/wacky experimentation left, but I don’t think I have ever been like “to hell with this crafting system”.
Thanks for coming to my DarkTED talk
Fairly important qualifier to add… but, since the rest of your post doesn’t exactly come out as favoring the grind, rather simply accepting that the system is garbage and working within the confines of that system, I don’t think anyone’d jump down your throat since you’re not an apologist for said system.
That being said:
There’s a bunch you have never considered because A) they’re obscured to start and without seeking them you’re basically in the dark. B) blessings are numerous and largely boring, typically only making “number go up” to some degree. C) most of them aren’t mechanically interesting, not even altering the personality or functionality of the wargear to any significant degree.
Honestly, Marks being the only thing that really change up combos or “feel” of weapons and blessings basically just adding slightly more damage/cleave/crit damage (all basic “numbergoup”) as I said has always missed the mark for me. I’d love to see more blessings change the functionality of wargear, as simple as “REV IT UP” or “Deflector”. Doesn’t need to be drastic, just make the thing FEEL different in some way beyond simple damage (bleed is synergistic with plenty of abilities but it’s also just… basic level difference).
Same. Though some of these I really wish were intrinsic to the weapons.
Force sword and deflector is a major example. Any ogryn repeating ranged and 'inspiring barrage."
To me, those are the most important parts of the weapon and thing I simply cannot do without and that makes building these weapons so limiting.
Aboslutely correct.
I’ve been looking to write something big on this, but a preview is that collecting plasteel is a goddamn bore, every build I want to run moves too slow so I don’t, we have to leave good weapons on the shelf because we have to take a knife so we can move fast enough, opening chests is ugly because it’s slow, slow slow. Other players have given up which slows it down more because so much of the time you are alone looking for plasteel, plasteel drops are too small. At present I have 15k diamantine and 10 plasteel.
i think you’re just used to other games that are faster. tide games tend to be designed for not rushing and they’ve been trying to make it harder every game (VT1 sprinters were functionally invincible- until RNG caught them and they just died). darktide’s mostly corrected that issue and it’s not a problem.
also how could opening item crates possibly be slow? it’s like half a second for any of them to swing open.
I’m not saying I accept the system is garbage, you’re putting words in my mouth. It does not align with a number of outcomes that many players want, I’m not denying that, but it has done a lot of what I wanted from it.
I do some theorycrafting to try and find better builds – the system is ill-suited to that, I’m not disagreeing – but having some off-the-wall things to try is fun for me; if I have to make the choice myself, it’s really easy to simply gravitate towards the tried-and-tested stuff. If the game makes the decision, then I usually need to get a bit more creative. I find that fun.
Now all I need is new blessings and weapons. They’ll appear any day now, right? 
I don’t think it’s all that slow in the grand scheme of things, but I try not to just scoop up everything in the chest the instant it’s open because I’d rather not take a big ammo bag from someone who needs it
I could open, spam ping to see what it is, trust that the item I’m pinging and the item under my crosshair are the same (sometimes they aren’t when you’re up close 
), but I prefer not to accidentally snag something that is more useful to someone else, even if that does mean I have to be patient with a crate.
shrug
Probably.
Of course you also just described a LARGE portion of the regulars and not-so-regulars here who jump to defend the bad decisions FS makes (patch 13 veteran tree for example) or staff member they like when someone calls them out for a lapse or just plain stupidity. Including some of the ones reaming Jakal right now. Gamer “logic” can be summed up as “if I like it or think it gives me status its good, if it hurts me its bad”. Truly hypocrisy at its finest. Sadly it tends to also be paired with frightening levels of egomania and a “us vs everyone else” tribal mentality that must have the local demagouge positively drooling at the thought of all these followers.
Fankly I’m not surprised studios are so blatant in exploiting and outright stealing from their customers. Gamers are so hellbent on eviscerating each other over status and anyone who so much as glances at their particular sacred cows that no one has any time or energy left for the sort of measures that get through the filters, spin doctors, and group-think echo chambers well enough to get someone in power asking questions. Even if some of collection action does get started the studio just has to throw a few shinies out and make some vague promises that never get met and the players will happily turn on eachother like a starving sounder of feral hogs.
Very sad. Computer technology has advanced so far but the humans who use it have regressed just as much.
Apparently you’ve misunderstood my reply…
Acceptance of what IS does not mean that you AGREE with it… We’ve effectively stated the same thing, I don’t know what words I’m “putting in your mouth.”
Seriously, it’s slow.
I haven’t measured it yet, but I will.
If it was one crate now and then, it would be okay, but most of the time I have to open all of them, it adds up, and the time waiting for the chest lid to move so I can see what’s in the chest is time I’m not looking around me. With the way Tide spawns enemies that’s a problem.
Time to open crate, to look in it, take what’s useful and not what isn’t, see if it’s empty, add in time to get to it, return to main track, catch up to the team which doesn’t care about the plasteel… and it’s an issue. If I take a heavy load out I can’t open crates at all because I’ll never catch up.
Darktide is very fast paced compared to Verm, and that’s good, but it needs to balance the pacing between character types, tasks required, gear loadout, and so on, with the speed of characters and the layout of drops, and right now it’s a problem.
To be fair, I don’t think this is a “gamer” phenomenon. This is a human thing. Altruism is a psychological impossibility. People have biological imperatives to be selfish. For pretty much any debate if someone has “skin in the game” or something to benefit bias will follow. Look at politics of left vs right. It’s no wonder there’s obvious demographic differences and why impoverished people vote for more taxes
going to social programs and taxing the rich, and rich people vote the opposite.
But, and not to be a braggart, this is why (and others) who do have decent gear STILL argue for a better system. The benefits to us are minor compared to others. And emotionally I don’t derive any pleasure in lording my gear over others. And I know other are the same.
This crafting system makes everyone lose. Just to varying extents.
In this scenario, since free will is an illusion, it’s more what psychological causality, assuming we all agree crafting sucks, would cause someone to defend it so or put them in a position to like it.
Of which you see maybe 10k still playing the game on PC. 500 of those people actually bothered to register here and express that opinion. I challenge you to find a different topic you will find that much persistent agreement.
Counting heads aside, Tide crafting is objectively terrible from the player experience perspective, especially if you enjoy crafting and exploring the avaiable build options, meagre as they are. It’s a matter of probability. I’m not even asking for “perfect” weapons, I ask for ability to combine perks and blessings to take advantage of some apparent synergies.
Also “You can finish auric games with greys” isn’t an argument you think it is. We really don’t need more reasons why the present itemisation and crafting are just a pointless facade.
First I would argue that altruism actually does exist. Otherwise we wouldn’t have accounts of people trading their own lives for that of strangers. Not exactly common but not impossible either.
And yes stupidly self-centered greed is most definetly not just a gamer thing. However, at least to a point, the real world puts a cap on how far most people will push things due to fear of consequences. Even if its just the fear of being outed as a completely amoral idiot and getting ignored. Gamers though, we practically live online where consequeces either non-existent or the whim of the powers-that-be and/or the raging mob. Hence we are free to take these things and ramp them up to positively insane levels over absolutely stupid things.
As for changing the crafting systems, good luck but I wouldn’t be taking any bets in your favor. Too many idiots at all levels and far too few players willing to set aside immediate personal gain for longer-term benefits.
I have to disagree with you on people being inherently selfish, currently that is the norm, but as people find themselves less stressed about their immediate needs Altruism increases.
Unfortunately altruism doesn’t exist if you believe in science.
Look at Richard Dawkins Selfish gene.
The issue with Altruism is thus.
Definition: To behave in such a way that you benefit someone else with ZERO rewards to yourself.
Premise 1: People don’t have free will (important to have this as a basis). Every action someone takes is due to some precedent cause.
Premise 2: People are motivated to perform actions by a mixture of external stimuli and neurological mechanisms and chemicals including past memories.
Premise 3: Humans, and all life, are inherently wired that they will not perform actions unless there is a conscious or instinctual perceived benefit.
Premise 4: Humans evolved to be social creatures where solitude would usually end in our demise and thus evolved in a way to maximize our survival within a tribe that involves working together.
Examples: If you decide to help an elderly individual cross the street it is because you either have some perceived social value in doing so, feel good about yourself, perhaps morally superior, etc. there is some neurological chemical release of feel good neuro transmitters. If you ever do an action, even at the cost of time and finances, it is not altruistic. The paradox is, if you are motivated to perform the action, then it’s selfish of you to pursue it because there would be some inherent cause behind the want to pursue it in the first place. Whether that’s wanting to go to heaven, to avoid cognitive dissonance, to not feel guilty, to feel good, to make a new social ally, to adhere to some value you put personal and emotional worth in, the vicarious experience of seeing someone else be grateful, etc.
Conclusion: It is an impossibility for something to be altruistic. If you ever feel good at all in anyway, you’ve already lost. It no longer meets the criteria for altruism. And yet, altruism requires intention and awareness, you cannot accidentally be altruistic (people wouldn’t condone you for accidentally donating money you wouldn’t have intentionally). And yet intention and causation requires perceived emotional satisfaction. Psychologists have known for a long time altruism is an impossibility. Self sacrifice for relatives is explained through genetics and how we are nothing more than agents for our genes rather than ourselves.
For why you think gamers are worse due to being online… I wouldn’t say so. Political difference happens online too. Flame wars and vitriol. In the United States polarization and radicalization is at an all time high. In person and online.
I agree online makes it worse. Kurzgesagt did a great video on it (it’s not echo chambers):
I just think it could be almost anything. Gamers are just a wide group. Look at the football war. Countries went to war over soccer. Religion is obviously another one that hasn’t been stable even before online.
I think a lot of people have banded together for the crafting system overhaul. It’s just whether the devs will listen or not. And I think it’s in their best interest to listen.
Gotta be honest with you I think that’s needlessly academic. We don’t live in a system of social capital, doing something for social recognition or self esteem isn’t equal to doing something for material gain. Spending time on things for which there is no material gain in this system assumes a certain level of privilege. If one’s basic needs are not met then material motivators are of course going to take top priority over other needs, that’s basic hierarchy of needs stuff. If, as @MeatVegetable says, those more basic needs are addressed then you’ll have more people able to spend their efforts, however selfishly, on the social needs of others. Whether or not it rises to level of altruism is moot.
That’s just Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs (as I read it) Which is different.
Important to use words with the proper denotative meanings at times. It’s an important note that all psychological actions require some degree of self interest and motivation, and that “true” altruism is a fairy tale. It’s a nice idea, but not one any hypothetical being could truly perform in any hypothetical universe under any hypothetical laws of physics. I think that fact can help humble our expectations and goals and what to expect of others and ourselves, as well better understanding behind motivations in ourselves and others.
For psychology material or social gain are the same. Their difference, irrelevant (when discussing the capability of altruism)
Certainly some actions can be more or less selfish or more inconsiderate or less empathetic. But we shouldn’t use altruism as the bar to compare things to, or the summit to scale.
I can let @Eviltreerat and @MeatVegetable speak for themselves but I’m not sure they’re if that’s what they’re doing here. Might try swapping altruism with solidarity.