Well, that’s one way to prove my point. Cheers!
Also, that 
made me giggle. Thanks again!
3 Likes
Which point? Because it’s been a while now since I first asked for ONE example of an actually-perfect 380 weapon hitting a breakpoint a 360+ can’t hit, and so far not a single one has been mentioned by anyone. So then spending ~10 missions to craft each new 360+ weapon seems quite reasonable.
(Because Ordos are the biggest part of the grind, you could even shave this down 30% with +Ordo curios, though I still don’t really feel those are quite worth it. Still, on classes with lots of weapon types taking it down to 7-8 missions per weapon would be quite a lot of missions saved overall.)
Well I guess the lack of substance to those arguing against the current system is funny to some degree. (But it’s sad in other ways, because these people have stopped approaching the topic rationally, so their position is one of pure delusion.) The fact remains that the current system rewards good choices and penalizes bad ones, and that’s what skill in games is.
Well, ok, here goes. Just FYI, this is the final time I humor you. What follows is the story about how Freqlectic and Axehilt formed an eternal friendship in the most unusual way.
- Freqlectic: Cries about the game becoming an inventory management and how he thought he bought a game from a different genre.
- Axehilt: It’s your fault if you spend time in menus. Your choice!
- brosgw: Call’s Axehilt disingenious (by saying it’s my choice) because it (inventoy managemenet) is the bulk of the progression.
- F: (replies to Axehilt) I don’t think you get my point. Also, I don’t play right now because I don’t enjoy it.
- alozara: Call’s F’s statement hyperbolic in a reply to brosgw. Also makes a low (in my opinion) estimate of time spent on “progression” in the Mourningstar.
interlude with brosgw and alozara arguing about how much time is spent
- F: Decides to exemplify, since the discussion stemmed from his post. One example is (clearly stated) hypothetical but serves well enough to convey the point. The second example is very realistic but with a made up breakpoint. He also clarifies that it’s not about chasing god rolls (Oh, I wonder why he felt the need to clarify that) and states that he believes that Axe and alozara may be right in their estimates, but that 1) it’s a low estimate and 2) that you may well have to spend an unreasonable amount of time in the inventory if you want to roll for something specific (lo and behold, that’s what the examples were for).
- Alo: I think your original number, for time spent in inventory, was too high, but fair enough.
- Axe: I don’t think you udnerstand the system. I don’t think it’s hones to ignore that you have to grind for resources (Did I mention that the example was a hypothetical? Most of the remaining points weren’t really that relevant to F’s post that triggered the reply, but here are some. Why are they not important? Because they assume you just want to try a random weapon and fully ignore the point of F’s post.). The RNG shop should be used for grey 360+ items and the drop rate of those is (relative value of) high. “With the shop-checker app, this takes very little time.” (I later learned that the statement obviously meant that you didn’t need to use the shop-checker.) The perk system is the only system that can take plenty of time.
- F: (replies to Alozara) The percentage can be ignored if it’s standing in the way of the main point, as a percentage isn’t necessary to make the point. (replies to Axe) Adressess a point that wasn’t really relevant to the original point. Tries to tie Axe’s response to the examples (in order to not derail). Challenges the statement that it takes no time to get what you want. Provides another example to try and clarify the example for Axe. Re-iterates that it is possible that it takes close to what Axe suggest, but that it’s also possible that it takes an amount of time that F believes is unreasonable. Re-iterates that the point is about the time that you could be forced to spent (ties in to gambling/RNG mechanics and forced inventory management, if you roll for something specific).
- Axe: (after mostly missing the point in his previous reply) Claims that F isn’t even replying to his post (despite the quotes, mind you). Re-iterates (very subjective) points about how 360+ items are to get (once again forgetting the 3-4 specific scenarios that he’s replying to). Re-iterates the claim that hypothetical examples can’t be used. Throws around a few insults for good measure.
interlude with mostly brosgw and Axehilt, the later claiming that people are obsessed with perfectly rolled items (because that must be what the other people actually meant by their replies, despite saying that wasn’t the case!). Axehilt for the most-part seems to be missing the point and putting words in brosgw’s mouth (but that’s just interpretation as the idle reader)
As part of the interlude we take the first step on a path that will lead deep into unknown and confusing territory. Axe asks for an example of a weapon breakpoint for the first time. In a reply to brosgw he exlaims!
- brosgw: provides three examples of breakpoints from the top of a bro’s head. (they are not very specific, but that’s likely because, you know, they are from the top of his head).
- Axe: You are obsessing about “Exactly-380” gear. I NOW DEMAND that you give me a breakpoint for gear that is dependent on the modifier points differing between a 360 weapon and a 380 weapon! insert evil laugh (As a reader I’m not sure why he’s after that specific breakpoint or why he thinks it’s someone else’s job to disprove his statements…the plot thickens!)
- brosgw: Brosgw starts to feel overwhelmed by Axe’s impeccable arguments and starts to feel confused. In his confusion he accidently explains why he’s confused, amazing!
- Axe: Well you guys suck because you can’t give me a MORE SPECIFIC breakpoint from the top of your head. Why don’t you provide me with the breakpoint I asked for!? (Axe is failing to realize that brosgw already provided him with 3 specific examples, from the top of a bro’s head, just as he asked for. Is it really fair of Axe to change the criteria of those examples? Could Axe have googled the examples to satisfy his curiosity? Nobody knows.)
- CommanderJ: chimes in with a breakpoint calculator (Now that Axe can finally sate his curiosity the day must be saved, right? Maybe now he can finally understand the core of the issue that his debate team friends are trying to explain to him.)
- F: (response to Axe) Reiterates a few previous points thinking that maybe they’ll hit home. Nothing new, really.
- Axe: (responds to CommanderJ) Why don’t YOU give me a breakpoint that requires 380!? If you don’t, you’re actually proving MY point! (nobody knows how he reached the conclusion and it’s likely that nobody ever will). (response to F) I DO use a low estimate in my example, I just don’t want to admit that a higher estimate is possible when discussing this. There’s also a few more insults baked into the post.
interlude with mostly same old and nothing new
- A: (repsonse to F) It’s a strawman when you’re saying that you’re glad I’m enjoying the game. Also, don’t claim I 'm fine with everything in the game! (The first part is utterly confusing, the second part is Axe claiming that F claimed something that F never claimed. Is that making Axe the bad man by his own definition? Again, nobody knows).
- castkeyboard: Here’s a very specific example of when a breakpoint would make the difference between X and Y. (no, it’s not a 380 breakpoint, but then again the 380 was never a part of any of the original examples. Why not, you may ask. Well, simply because it would be an unreasonable example and would put the focus on “god rolls” etcetera. Why is Axe focusing on it? Nobody knows…)
- Axe: ignoring caskeyboard’s post (reposne to F) What, did YOU have a point? MY POINT is that you guys can’t give me one example of a 380 breakpoint!
Why would I keep repeating myself? Nobody owes you anything in terms of examples. You’re arguing a point that’s besides the point. You’re asking me for breakpoint examples for 380 weapons because what? The only reason I can see is that you entirely forgot the original points made, but then again, I’m not sure that you ever did get that point.
Anyway, this post is the last hand-holding you’ll get from me buddy (not meant as an insult, believe it or not). If you want to try and understand why there is miscommunication, then my recommendation is to take a step back from the discussion and try to look at it with fresh eyes. It’s usually an eye-opener. If you still see it the same way, well, then at least you did your part and tried. If that’s the case however, there isn’t much point for any further discussions. If you respond with “Where is my 380 breakpoint example!?” I’ll probably giggle and shake my head a bit, but I won’t spend any time responding to it (I hope this posts make clear why that is, I truly do). I’m still glad your enjoying parts(!) of the game. It’s good someone is, especially as so many people are feeling cheated by it, both when looking at the full product and when looking at the parts that make it up.
6 Likes
-
None of that indicates you spend a huge portion of time crafting. So are you dropping that particular point? Because we’ve seen it’s about 10 missions per crafted item, and we’ve seen how long it takes to do that crafting. So we know you don’t spend excessive time crafting.
-
The post you mentioned downplayed the value of the RNG. I pointed out “RNG shop is mostly bad nowadays” (but outlined the one function it does have), and that if you want a specific item you just generate 5-15 of that item.
-
Brosgw’s “three examples” didn’t require perfection. Each of them was possible without a perfect 380 roll. In fact it was great that the breakpoint calculator was provided, because part of the point of my demanding evidence of one weapon that couldn’t hit all important breakpoints with 360 rolls was to get people looking at those breakpoints really hard to realize I’m right! So anyone who actually mucked around in that calculator trying to find an example to prove me wrong has a deep understanding I’m right: because they searched hard and came up with nothing but example after example of 360 items (with T3/T4 blessings/perks; the kind easy to craft) hitting all important breakpoints.
You shouldn’t. Bad arguments which are shown to be wrong shouldn’t be repeated at all. But if you agree it’s bad (because you don’t have good data to support that it’s a good argument) then why bother vaguely disagreeing? Why not simply change sides to agree with the facts?
After latest patch, have spent more time crashing then ever. Even has rebooted my computer twice at different times during two different missions. Just played Excise vault and crashed at least 5 times, twice just loading into the mission.
I know there are people saying it’s really easy to get t4 blessings now, and good weapons, but I’ve also noticed people that are posting weapons from very small blessing pools (tac axes specifically). When you have the force sword, which has 11 blessings at t3/t4, and 9 blessings at t1/t2, its far more difficult to get the blessings you want crafting up blues. In fact I’ve crafted about 50 blue force swords (and a bunch of yellows) and have yet to see a single t4 blessing for them:
5 Likes
Oh but don’t you know, Axe has ‘established’ that it’s only 10 missions worth of crafting mats to get whatever you want. I mean, it’s pulled out of his ass and no one has agreed with him, but seemingly that’s established now.
Clearly you’re just doing RNG wrong. Get better at rolling dice, I suppose? The problem is you, you see, not the game and it’s horrible systems.
4 Likes
In case you didn’t notice, slmost the ebtire pist was a summary, not an argument.
Still a summary. Also not sure why that would be a point. My examples are based on Brunt, which should be self-evident.
Did anyone say otherwise? I haven’t checked personally. Either way, why ate you stuck on perfection. I have re-iterated that I used a hypothetical weapon breakpoint that requires far from perfect anything, mostly to avoid an argument based on how (supposedly) everyone want perfect rolls.
That’s the thing. I’m not arguing from any side (I don’t see it as two sides, far from it). Im arguing from what I see and, in this case, why engaging with such a system is a bad experience for me.
I know I’ve suggested it before, but I really think you’d benefit from taking a step back from ‘your side’ to try understand other viewpoints. But then again, it might just shatter your world.
That’s really weird because that’s just not how the system should work. Are you sure you’re not doing it wrong? I have a guide for you that will tell you to upgrade smarter, you know, to do exactly what you did.
Also, I think the actual limit is about 30 grey weapons in order to get something decent with at least one rad t4 blessing. Maybe your game broke. Did you lie about those numbers!?
I know text doesn’t translate tone well, so please read the above in a sarcastic voice.
Also, seems Commaner beat me to it 
2 Likes
Sure, but the way to do that is to ask them to actually make their point with evidence (facts; reality).
Well when we examine the facts we see things like:
- you don’t spend too much time crafting vs. in missions
- you don’t need ultra-rare “casino” rolls on weapons to have an effectively-perfect weapon
Because obviously if someone laid out the facts showing crafting requires dramatically more time than my account of it earlier, then assuming their numbers were accurate of course that’d change my mind and get me to see their point. If someone presented breakpoints of tons of weapons that absolutely need 380 attributes to hit breakpoints, of course that’s convince me!
The entire problem is people are making criticisms that reality doesn’t prove out. That’s why those other posters are hitting this wall. It’s not me: it’s reality. Reality doesn’t magically reshape itself just because we have a harsh opinion of it.
While you were being sarcastic, ironically you were almost entirely correct:
- the system isn’t supposed to work that way. Are T4 blessings even possible on crafting upgrade? If so it’s incredibly rare. So clearly upgrading isn’t supposed to be a major source of them, if it’s a source of them at all.
- the “guide” being: you get T4 blessings from Melk items, which you hand over to Hadron, and now all your crafted weapons have T4 blessings!
Not really. You don’t need anything to take a step back. Correction, you don’t need anuthibg except the will to try. And no, you don’t need aby evidence what so ever to try and see someone else’s point of view.
You know, your reply is the perfect example of why I’m suggesting that you take a step back etc. It has to be your choice though, as noone can do it for you.
I know that words have different meaning to us. Your fist point is subjective by definition. It can’t be considered a fact unless you agree to specific metrics (no, there hasn’t been any specific metrics). Again, if your ‘fact’ consist of worss like ultra-rare, and effextively-perfect I just don’t know what to believe. Did we decide on any consistent metrics (nope), is ultra-rare some kind of definition in it’s own right (nope), and what is effectively-perfect supoosed to be?
If you left your bubble you’d see how crazy your way of arguing is. Take a step back, or don’t and keep living the bubble life (it’s probably safer).
What his post is suggesting is that he didnt get a single T4 from 30-40 crafting rolls.
We have plenty of other posts with lack of e.g. 360+ modifier scores after a large number of brunt rolls. But then again, if we are looking at the ‘facts’ there is certainly a good explanation, because the ‘facts’ state that you are guaranteed an effectively-perfect weapon after a reasonable amount of rolls.
3 Likes
I’m going to go out on a limb here, but the back and forth regarding people’s differing perspectives on the Shrine of the Omnissiah is unlikely to change either perspectives stance or opinions on the system. But it is slowly devolving in to attacks on those with contra-view points, and that’s no fun for them, us, or other folks stopping by to check out the discussions.
At some point it’s healthier to agree to disagree.
6 Likes
oh it’s always been much harder to get one full stop. compared to a taxe muuuuuch harder, at least a magnitude probably magnitudes harder now i would eyeball. you underestimate the advantages taxes have here, specifically:
-
they roll on 3/4 classes
-
they have 3 variants on all three of the classes they roll on which can share blessings
god i would love to visualize this, i think it really would be eye opening. if a player spends every hour playing psyker, the odds of getting a good force sword blessing compared to a taxe one is atrocious. even before considering the pool size you would expect a psyker only player to have 3x more chances to see T4 blessings. anyone who plays any combination of classes it’s much stronger.
It has reached this point obviously…
1 Like
I know their points of view.
The problem is the disconnect between (A) reality and (B) their opinion.
If A and B aren’t the same thing, then whatever opinion they have (“grass is pink”) is wrong.
Well if they value truth you can explain this to them and they’ll change their opinion.
If they don’t value truth, then you can just watch as they pridefully stick to the same position despite all of reality clearly indicating they’re wrong. (And to do that requires knowing what reality “looks like”, which is why I presented evidence walking them through crafting.)
Almost every time I call something effectively perfect I frame it as a 360+ item with T3/T4 perks/blessings, and the reason it’s being called effectively perfect is items like that hit every meaningful breakpoint (or at least that’s what we in the thread know so far, with ZERO people having posted breakpoints a 380 could hit but a 360 can’t).
Friend, my “bubble” is truth. Either:
A. the other person can show that their criticism is truth (by pointing to facts of reality justifying the opinion), OR
B. they have a garbage opinion.
This isn’t unreasonable: if truth is too high a requirement for someone to meet, then it’s not my opinion which needs changing; it’s theirs.
Sure, and he couldn’t hit a “micronuke” button to destroy every enemy on screen. There are facts like that (no micronukes) and there are arguments for how the game should be, and they’re two different things.
If T4 aren’t easily available from upgrading, that’s fine, because the inputs to that side of the system can come from later sources (or current sources in the case of Melk).
I think it reached this point like 200 posts ago. It would actually at this point be more productive to find something that both sides at least agree on.
Like here, is anyone actually happy that level 30 player can get under 300 rolls from brunt? Is everyone against the idea of spending resources to unlock both perk/blessing slots? Could there be more systems like upgrading base stats with costs? Maybe diamantine to plasteel conversion?
Because we are literally not getting anywhere with this sort of discussion.
2 Likes
Tbh this forum is becoming painful to read because so many threads devolve into this sort of argumentative pedantic nonsense. At some point these “well ackshully my opinion is a Fact, deal with it” discussions are indistinguishable from trolling and imo the CMs should treat them that way.
1 Like
I think Psyker is the most awful when it comes to the gear grind tbh.
Often times the only way you can really get Staff blessings in particular is just leveling from gray onward because the Psyker’s store looks like it belongs to the vet or sharpshooter most days. On top of that every staff is considered having unique blessings that have no cross blessings so it just makes it even worse.
Ogryn funny enough doesn’t have anywhere near as bad of a time imo but it gets nothing but unique weapons vs the Psyker pool which is super diluted.
3 Likes
6 of 13 Ogryn weapons are part of the fluffed model system. Psyker only has Duelling Swords to share blessings across and most of the blessings on DS are not game changing. Just get Rampage.
oh yes definitely. unless you wanna run gun psyker i guess - i don’t say this like “ha ha i knew better” or whatever but it’s non-figuratively the reason i’ve never rolled a psyker. i took one look at the drop tables, knew i’d need to do the curio grind again at the same time i was chasing a remotely decent weapon and said f dat.
2 Likes