Non-"toxic" scoreboard solution

[tinybike]

@Zoralink

That might lead to some conclusions but on the flip side it’s generally accepted that in my group if I go down first there’s a much higher chance of our group wiping. I also generally have the big ole green circles.

Right, I think you’d want to include a control group for carries (i.e., groups where one player is notably better than the others). So the actual comparison would use the “carry” control group’s %-of-the-time-that-green-circle-getter-dies-first as the baseline, rather than just a naive 25%.

@Zoralink

You could attempt to establish rough correlations but ultimately actually establishing A) If they’re actually being toxic towards the team and B) Chicken or the egg? Did the team wipe because they went down first and were carrying the team or did the team wipe because they were chasing kills?

Without actively watching every match you can’t really establish anything, and even then without knowing someone’s motivation there’s no way to know why they’re acting the way they are.

I don’t think you could establish anything definitive about a particular match, but I think it’s possible to draw inferences about matches in general. I agree that if you actually wanted to do this, you’d want to include some kind of control for ordinary carries. And of course, as you say, it’s just finding correlations (you could certainly set up an experiment to actually get at causation, but I can’t imagine FS did anything so elaborate). But, if you’re a game company trying to decide on whether to add a feature to your game or not, a rough correlation of the “this thing seems to correlate a bit with selfish/anti-teamwork behavior” variety could very well be the thing that makes them shrug their shoulders and think, “well alright, let’s just leave it out then”.

Having observed green-circle-chasing behavior myself anecdotally in VT2 – and also having watched players chase K/D ratios in other games, to the detriment of their teams – I do think that their explanation re: “toxicity” is a plausible one. But who knows, really – they could have just left it out for the same mystifying reasons they left out a lot of stuff from VT2, and all this stuff about toxicity is just some kind of post-hoc rationalization. FS works in mysterious ways.

[Naqara]

luv me scoreboard, luv me green circles, even if said circles arent on me : ) simple as.

[jaif]

The problem here is that most of you want kill totals, which is meaningless blather when it comes to improving your game. Lets get some real number:

• Number of ammo packs taken
• Number of times disabled
• Number of times hit by a sniper
• Number of times downed
• Number of medicae charges used.

That should give people good feedback for their builds.

[Dags]

Well, that’s poor design on penances by Fatshark. The rest of the game is impossible to play like that without dying quickly. Those players will learn quickly.

[ComradeHX]

total kills absolutely matters.

For example:
lots of ammo taken → few kills compared to rest of team(see this is why stats of other players are needed) → bad.
lots of ammo taken → top kills by far → okay.
not much ammo taken → top kills by far → epic.

[Rainman]

I had a discussion about how to make the scoreboard “less toxic” while playing the other day, and came up with a possible solution. The scoreboard could publicly display teamwork stats, but personally display combat stats, that way you can compare your own performance, but not to other’s. It would be also be nice to have a history saved, per run, with things like weapon-specific performance stats (like in LoL), like how much cleave and cleave damage you did, how much single target, how much damage with specials activated, etc. Could also have an option to toggle combat stats to be seen to others who also have it toggled on, so if you play with friends everybody can compare if they choose to.

[ComradeHX]

nah, your own combat performance must be judged relative to the team’s.

Because if someone else is hogging all the ammo and spamming ranged weapon at everything, it’s only logical that melee classes would have fewer kills.

[Wyck]

All that modern fear of toxicity is hilarious, someone precious feelings get hurt… how pathetically childish. We adult people are we not?
There are always should be a healthy dose of it just to keep everyone on their toes., to remember what it is and how to deal with it. Some amount of a-holes will always be around to ruins someone else day. And if Fatshark really cared about dealing with toxicity , and not just pretended that it does - there will be a Report Player option in game, not clunky and slow tickets on their site.

Secondly a scoreboard itself - great tool for self evaluation. And to berate someone (or much better - give unasked for advice how to improve - that usually drive people into frenzy) for playing badly you don’t need it at all - you can clearly see when someone not contributing and playing poorly. Though best treatment is just not to waste energy and words and simply say nothing, not even GG.

[Padds]

@Mike_Rotch

Make the scoreboard accessible after the match. People still can check their stats, compare and keep track of their performance, whilst there’s no place for text/voice chat abuse

Have to mention the toxicity thing is from one mention of one FS post on the subject. those of us on the forum that have been resisting the scoreboard have a lot of other issues.

1. it doesnt work , its useless for the purposes of seeing who did well how your build performed on any other type of comparative analytical metric. not going into the maths here but theres simply too much variance between runs and things have disproportianate affects, Movement speed greatly improves kills not because it makes you better your just stopping others getting thier chances.

2. it causes terrible behaviour from green circle chasing, ammo hoarding , stat padding, leaving team mates behind , not helping them up all the way down to subtle stuff like changing the fundamental point of the game.
   DT should be a co operative experience where the AI is the enemy to a competitive game where your team are the enemy and the AI are the resource your competing over.

a scoreboard does provide one thing that DT is missing and thats the “roar of the crowd” reward for finishing, there is no " F yeah!" moment for winning in DT , those who played L4d1 will get what i mean here, the panaromic shots, the music crescendos etc . But while ill accept a scoreboard helps to deliver this i dont think its a good or by any means the best option here.

[vasilisfouk]

Personally, I don’t care at all about ‘toxicity’. The scoreboard can be helpful but if the stats tracked are the exact same stats that make people forget they aren’t playing Call of Duty then I prefer to do without it.

If a scoreboard needs to be added, any stat that rewards co-op play should be shown and any stats that just makes people think they are the best player ever should be hidden.

I really don’t want to see people trying to do as much DPS as possible, ignoring coherency, ammo management, reviving allies etc. because the game tracks it.

Add revives, teammates saved from stunlocks, ammo/health packs dropped, damage absorbed, damage blocked, enemies tagged, coherency time, carrying grims, all the co-op things that everyone should be trying to do.

Do not add damage dealt, kills, special kills, headshots and things that everyone is doing anyway but aren’t necessarily making you a better co-op player.

Reward proper co-op behavior with the scoreboard.

In other words, don’t create more suicidal Kerillians in Darktide please. We can do without idiots trying to maximize a stats by losing everyone the mission.

Thank you

[brosgw]

Only issue is the RNG in trying to actually change the gear effectively, or worse, try and replicate what someone else did.

[Manacraft]

I tend to think that Fatshark was probably wise not to include a scoreboard in Darktide. People do end up playing for stats instead of teamwork and TBH I’m glad it’s not the case here. Toxicity or lack thereof is not really the issue for me.

If a game like Darktide was to have a scoreboard, my ideal version of it would be one that you can opt into/out of. In a co-op game, I don’t necessarily think that other players owe you a look at their stats.

But what I’d really like to see is some moments from the mission displayed at the end of it. Something like a player pulling off a clutch res, the team taking down a monstrosity, etc. Show the important make-or-break moments and give us something to rally around.

[HeIlsing]

I have in over 450h of V2 NEVER seen any toxic behavior due to the scoreboard. I dont get it how seeing how much damage you dealt or X killed with a nice little green circle makes a scoreboard toxic.
If a player wants to be an assshole he doesnt need any of this to be one but scrapping stuff because assshole exists means people can never ever have anything because you can find someone abusing anything to be toxic.

[Wyck]

Yes! The Most Toxic people are those who see toxicity in everything (and usually scared of everything and offended by everything). Pandering to them is bad for business… But you know how things work.

[Mezmorki]

@HeIlsing

have in over 450h of V2 NEVER seen any toxic behavior due to the scoreboard. I dont get it how seeing how much damage you dealt or X killed with a nice little green circle makes a scoreboard toxic.
If a player wants to be an assshole he doesnt need any of this to be one but scrapping stuff because assshole exists means people can never ever have anything because you can find someone abusing anything to be toxic.

100%

More to the point, I’d rather deal with a-holes being toxic (a situation I’ve barely even noticed in over 700 hours of vermintide and 200 in DT mind you) rather than listening to anti-score board players make inane arguments about non-issues for why they don’t want a scoreboard. It’s ridiculous.

The anti-score board arguments also don’t seem to explain that while presently in darktide there is no official scoreboard, you still have people running off “circle chasing” or being stupid and not playing like a teammate. In short, bad players are going to be bad with or without a scoreboard. For anyone with a level head, the scoreboard is a nice tool for self-improvement, validation, and a fun way to close out the match.

Thank god for the scoreboard mod BTW, it’s really nice overall.

[Ralendil]

@Rieven

If you did well you know you where mvp that round with or without a scoreboard maybe they could add private stack tracking that only you see after the team has split but before you come back to the mourning star?

I agree with your post. But I wanted to react on what I quoted.
Well, the problem that has FS is that a scoreboard already exists and that it is displayed at the end of the mission.
They really need to give us something better.

Tbh, I don’t think it is hard as the scoreboard… well it is bad the idea to give score to what you did.
However there are so many datas I would like to know, and even without having a comparison with others:

• Numbers of fall / death
• Number of members revived / liberated
• Number of teammates saved from dog / trapper
• DPS for melee / ranged (based on ammo used or melee weapon hit, missed or not)
• Damages on monstruosity
• My melee damages / my ranged damages
• Staggered enemies by melee weapon / ranged weapon
• Weak spot hit for melee weapon / ranged weapon
• Dodges successful / Blocks successful
• My accuracy with ranged weapons
• Number of horde enemies / disablers / elite / special I killed
• Damages taken (toughness + health) / Health loss
• Plasteel collected / Plasteel collected by the team
• Diamantine collected / Diamantine collected by the team

What I use actually is really far from perfect… this is a modified version of the scoreboard…
Take note that:

• Aenea is my zealot, and now I have a char with same name that is a veteran low level
• This is the template that use the shotgun ;P… no flamer, nor boltgun

[VikingsDood]

This is 100% correct. This “problem” reflects an already toxic highly vocal minority of the player base. The fact that FS is treating this like a real problem speaks volumes about their priorities.

[Alik]

@Manacraft

People do end up playing for stats instead of teamwork

What is “teamwork”? And how do “stats” get in the way of doing “teamwork”?

It feels like for everyone, teamwork in this game is: pick someone up off the floor, throw the dog off them, and help/get the damn battery. That’s it.

However, it’s not that simple.

The trick is, if you have GREAT stats by the end of the game, then your teamwork is great because YOU are a KILLING MACHINE. You just kill everything that pokes its nose around the corner, you don’t miss a single bastard, you are the weapon of the Emperor.
And that fact alone already makes you a great teammate, because you do almost all the work for your team, i.e. killing enemies.
And yes, good players understand one subtlety, the rest of the team can always/almost/sometimes cover/raise/give medpack, so they (good players) will get rid of your dog, cover, raise only so that YOU at least sometimes, but can cover them. Roughly speaking, to have good stats, you need partners as a safety cushion, otherwise 1 mistake and… MISSION FAILED, THE EMPEROR IS NOT HAPPY WITH YOU.

So, those dudes you think of supposedly “playing for stats”, running ahead, 1k away from the team and blah blah blah - won’t be at the top, rather they die. And they’re doing just fine without a spreadsheet with numbers.

In conclusion, I just want to say that the scoreboard at the end of the match has many more pluses than “toxic minuses”! pfft, “minuses”, what nonsense.

Good luck to you all and to the enemies of the scoreboard, meh

[anon93671839]

entire premise is flawed, scoreboards are not toxic at all, neither is this community.

The entire talking point of toxicity in this game is a lie, and ironically a toxic attack against a good community.

A small minority of players who have the following traits are pushing this agenda, and some of the people at fat shark too:

1. they are toxic.
2. they can not appreciate other players doing a good job.
3. they can not play to the level they feel they are at and scoreboards break the illusion.
4. they have narcissistic grandiosity and take it as a personal attack that they were not first on the score board.
5. they have a covert brand of narcissism, so they pretend to be the good guy, and say that everyone who likes scoreboards is evil, and they are just the victim. Victims have the moral high ground, so this plays into the illusion of grandiosity.
6. they enjoy virtue signaling: “hey guys look at how moral i am because I don’t like evil scoreboards, and i’m a good person for saying you are all toxic.”

this really is a case of people with actual mental illness that makes them hate people who are good at the video game, or at least score better then they do, and its very confusing how they can get away with calling one of the nicest communities in the game “toxic.”

There is zero evidence that this community is toxic. this community has thousands of examples of evidence that it is not toxic: helping new players, building community tournaments, streamers, you tube guides, forums, discords all devoted to helping build a safe and fun community for everyone.

Our community is diverse and strong and brave, and very inclusive… if you call us toxic you hate all of that, you are a nazi and a bigot.

period. there is no place for hate here, you need to leave, and let us have our scoreboards in peace.