Well it sure is a better idea than the all encompassing, game wide, core DAMAGE mechanic that WAS implemented instead
But, if it were ME? Id drop ANY changes to stagger/stagger resistance and make the new DLC fit the game, not the GAME fit the DLC. Maybe add something like was suggested earlier. A new trait only shields could get, not just ‘Off Balance’, but something new and interesting related to a PUSH rather than a BLOCK
True. But weapons WILL get a balancing. Its just the thing that happens. Thats a guarantee. How long though? Shoot, could be ages lol
Gave it a go now, I think it’s the cleave nerfs that have made it lose its earlier, more satisfying feel.
On the bright side, maxing crit chance + AS and taking the AS talent + crit chance on ult on HM is hilarious with the glaive’s heavies, you can solo delete a CW patrol (on Legend at least).
But I think it could use more cleave on lights, I’m not enjoying it otherwise anymore, it hits maybe two enemies tops like an axe like you said, when before it could do three or so at least.
Also the running attacks by Sigmar, they’ve been bad before but I feel like I’m watching the heretic reenactment of swan lake at times again… Had a mauler powerslide a good ten meters to break my block, as host.
Ah, misunderstood then.
Agree 110%. I’d like to face more enemy variants and new moves from existing enemies instead of just buffing their stats like the later weaves especially are guilty of.
“Legend isnt legend, its Legend+
Champion isnt Champion, its Legend
Veteran isnt Veteran, its Champion
Recruit is still silly easy, but thats the point”
This made me laugh it just isnt true.
Legend got easier not harder and the fact you’re calling it legend+ is hilarious.
I can’t help but imagine you talking in real life the same way you type, shouting every other word. lol
He’s a drill sergeant irl 
Then I apologize I must have misunderstood!
I like how it is now but if they should change it back I would not mind it.
Np - we all misunderstand the topic or what people mean sometimes
Yep, I think I feel like it would be ‘better’ to go back, but as it is, it may just take some time (maybe more than I even want to admit) to rebalance the game
LOL
I have a fear of being… misunderstood
But you are right, I have NO problem speaking my mind 
I realize this is bait… but Im still gonna bite! lol
Well, not for SURE, because I am sure there are those that actually think it IS easier!
The thing you say here that is ‘untrue’ is this:
^ THAT is untrue
If you believe it is EASIER then I’d hazard a guess you are either just trolling (hence the bite), or you really believe it IS. And if you DO believe it is easier, then you represent a VERY low percentage of the Vermintide 2 community since patch 2.0 (and there is NOTHING wrong with that) – and SAYING Im wrong about that dosent make it so – I believe that is a FACT
Pre 2.0, legend pubs would win missions on average 80-90% of the time? At least in my experience. And with respect to difficulty, thats the angle I am coming from here. And since? 20-30%? I am guessing obviously, but you get my point
So what has changed?
2.0 landed… with a big THUD!
The fact remains it HAS become harder to complete missions with respect to the 1.7 to 2.0 jump. You may feel as though it has gotten EASIER, and thats fine, but most complaints I hear about 2.0 are related to the INCREASED difficulty
They wouldnt have anything to complain about if it… wasnt harder… right?
winkity wink
Viber123 If thats your response then you never played anything but legend public games with public players. I genuinely feel sorry for you as you will never experience the real game and get better at it.
For massive amounts of players, QP legend with public players is the experience people are having and it wasn’t all bad by a long chalk. To call a pre-made group playing legend as the “real game” is completely egocentric.
I might suggest that QP legend should be the target for any of FS development goals as this is the most likely place to find players who are quite competent and engaged customers but haven’t got a dedicated cadre to play with.
LOL
Arrogance surrounds you like a cloud of lies! Uh… FLIES I meant to say FLIES! ahem
Yes! You are RIGHT! I will never get better at this game!
Yes! You are RIGHT! I have never experienced the REAL GAME!
giggity giggity
LOL - it was very entertaining - thank you
–=--
But if you want to be taken seriously, you have to say something… serious. And this thread is all about that. This thread is NOT, however, for people to self-massage, as you seem to be doing. No one cares about whether you are ‘experiencing the real game’ or not…
So, to be clear, this thread is NOT about silly trollishness (my new word for the day as now I can identify TWO in the thread), or a study into the ego-centric talk of fools
WAKE UP!
This game has taken a HARD hit to the GUTS and we need to INFORM Fatshark on what we think about it. I hear views that literally make me wonder WTH people are THINKING! But? I dont have to agree with anyone. Fatshark just has to hear it! This is the game you all love, and its this kind of discourse that can have a POSITIVE effect. So speak your mind about things that matter!
I realize some people think this is unimportant, and this is just a game. But I LOVE this game. I WANT it to succeed. We all have different opinions, and yes, some are more obtuse than others, but we should hear them ALL
Even THAT guys! ALL of us
What is your experience with the changes in 2.0? What did you think of the feedback given here? In beta? and as pointed out earlier, how Fatsharks feedback to action loop is working? and, what you think of the stagger-to-damage model introduced in 2.0?
As much as I enjoy reading all of the posts in this thread you people do realize it’s to late right? It’s way to late. Fatshark screwed up bigtime. They cannot repair this dmg. They had the feedback for months and choose to ignore it. Now they reap the rewards. Best thing they could do is to just MAN UP, Apologize for this unsatisfactory result and go from there.
No amount of “new experimental betas” is going to fix WOM however. Listening to a small group of people instead of it’s largest most faithful fanbase was what birdperson would consider “A **** move”. It was a catastrophic failure
I’ve played around 100 hours of the closed extended and open beta for WOM. I left alot of feedback and criticism on many different things. I also reported as many bugs as I could find while playing.
I mainly tested Cataclysm since that was the only thing that interested me and I could finish those runs with some effort put into it. I am one of those people who where heavily against STAGGER in any interation they could think of because I KNEW it would affect combat and make it clunky and slow and tedious which would ruin the core feel of the game. It’s almost like they didn’t care.
In the main game I have over 1100 hours played, mostly on legend/deeds or just for shenanigans since I CBA doing anything on modded realm.
That’s my background.
Now to get real.
Winds of Magic is a cluster **** if anything. I KNEW THAT WEAVES WOULD BE POINTLESS. I KNEW THE STAGGER CHANGES WOULD NEGATIVELY INPACT THE GAME.
And lo and behold, Winds of Magic at 36% on Steam Reviews. MOSTLY NEGATIVE. That’s not good. That’s freaking horrendous. I’m happy I didn’t waste my money into it. And I never will. It’s not worth it. Just to be clear, it’s not about the money. I could easily afford it even with it’s asking price of 16,79€. It’s about sending the message.
So what did they mess up with this game?
Version 2.0 for Vermintide 2 is what truly started it all. The changes to combat, the stagger changes along side talent changes turned the game into something completely new. And I’ve heard some people honestly saying “but this is just abit more like Vermintide 1!” NO! IT IS NOT! I’ve played that to much to know that as the game stands now Vermintide 1 is a much better game than Vermintide 2.
Then came Winds of Magic. Let’s adress it’s core features and reason around them.
The Beastmen - At first glance this is actually a welcome addition. It’s fun when they put more enemies in and not only that an entire faction. That’s great! And that’s where the fun ends.
With this games hyperdensity, which got alot worse with the Beastmen, came a new breed of annoyance. The Beastmen in combination with the Stagger changes, hyperdensity, lag (To some, I was not affected by lag at all). dodge changes, long range near unavoidable charges from enemies. Fighting them became so tedious it just didn’t feel good. Not to mention they where clearly unbalanced in comparison with the Skaven and the Norsca Chaos. (In the lore I believe that Norsca Chaos should be more powerful than the beastmen since they carry Nurgles blessing but I could be wrong about that). Preferably I would have seen Chaos as the heaviest to fight against and the Beastmen a middleground. However, I still liked the Beastmen as a whole. I didn’t like them to 100%, But maybe 55-60% which is still better than half.
Beastmen are simply put: Acceptable
Cataclysm - Why this is behind a paywall within the expansion is beyond me. I could be wrong about that aswell since I havn’t been playing this game at all and uninstalled it out of spite for what they did. So if I am please correct me. But from what I understand I need to buy Winds of Magic to be able to play Cataclysm and if that’s the case it’s a massive middle finger from Fatshark in my face. So I have to pay for a bunch of stuff I don’t want just to access this one thing? No thanks.
Cataclysm from a balance POV felt ok. During the beta it was abit overtuned during certain betas and really enjoyable during others. Another problem with Cataclysm was the fact that someone at Fatshark seriously thought “Oh there’s no special reward, it’s the same as Legend. But do it for the challenge”. Then there’s not point in running 3 Tome/2 grim runs on Cata? Why do that when I can simply do that on legend if I need vaults? Such a blatantly stupid idea from Fatshark. No reward, do it for challenge. That’s not motivation enough sorry. I need to actually see that my effort was rewarded. That being said, Cataclysm is still a great addition to the game, if I didn’t have to PAY FOR IT. This seriously should have been with the 2.0 patch and not Winds of Magic. It should have been added for free to the base game.
Cataclysm is simply put: A shame…
Raised leve cap - Yup, we all got that. Thanks. Still slightly annoyed by the fact that my lvl 500+ Sienna suddenly cannot spare a few of her overlevels to instantly go to 35. But sure I can live with that. It doesn’t make any sense but I can live with it. No big deal here really.
The New Progression System - OH BOY. Grab the popcorn and saddle down kids because we are about to dive deep into the main poopstorm that is WEAVES aka the badly scripted Greater Rift clone from Diablo 3 with a leaderboard that only the top 1% care about. Or as I like to call it, a huge waste of potential.
First of all I honestly do not CARE at all about leaderboards just to get that out of the way. Do I get anything from playing weaves to the main game? Oh, I get a frame, Yeah not interested. Not worth my time. Not to mention the weaves are such a massive grind it’s tedious. I’d rather grind in a more fun game like Deep Rock Galactic. Grinding there is actually fun. Wait there will be seasons so I have to grind AGAIN!? Why don’t you just spit on me while you’re at it Fatshark… The audacity to even consider such a thing. Just drop the idea. The Weaves where a complete and utter failure.
And to add insult to injury. I quite LIKED the new crafting system that came with the Weaves. ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT IT’S EXCLUSIVE TO THE DAMN WEAVES. Why did you waste this potential Fatshark? Oh and honestly I quite liked some of the skins on the weave weapons too. Do we get those in the main game? No? Well thx for nothing I guess.
Weaves are such a waste of potential and a massive waste of time IMO that I would never EVER put any time into it. And this was Winds of Magic main selling point. I’m not paying for that.
Imagine if we have had a reworked Deed system or Versus mode instead of weaves. How happy that would have made people in general. Fatshark sure has some wierd priority with their development.
Weaves are simply put: A Complete and utter DISTASTER
New weapons - As far as I am concered only one weapon actually stood out and felt good to use. It’s pretty obvious it’s the throwing axe that Bardin got. I didn’t like any of the other weapons at all for various reasons. They felt bad, had wierd attack patterns and/or low to weak performance.
New weapons are simply put: A Shame… EXCEPT YOU THROWING AXE! YOU ROCK!
New level - Havn’t played it. I don’t have the expansion so I cannot say anything about it. What I am going to say however is that only 1 level for the asking price for WOM is a disgrace. You should have added ATLEAST 3 new maps. At the very least 3 new maps designed for the beastmen in mind and with some lore to it. Guess that time went into weaves instead.
Dark Omen is simply put: I dunno, but only one level is not acceptable for the price of this expansion.
Winds of magic - See point 4.
Now for the last point. The biggest change of them all that ruined the game.
STAGGER
I knew the moment they implemented it and from the first time I hit a rat in the face that this would not do well. It turned everything into sponges and with the hyperdensity and intensity of Cataclysm the hordes where the main threat. Not the massive amount of specials or elites, No, the hordes where the real threat because of how much they stacked on one another and the fact that they could take such a massive beating.
Also here’s the biggest flaw with Stagger. Why would I want to go up to an enemy and push him then hit them when I can simply MACE TO THE FACE!? What feels more satisfactory for you as a player? You don’t have to guess do you? I alongside many others who played the beta did point this out and the issues with the changes to Stagger. Turning a optional Crowd Control ability into a mandatory debuff. Just as I predicted it slowed the game down by a huge margin. It became boring to play. My teams 10-12 minute runs on certain maps suddenly turned to +30 minute runs. It became tedious. Nobody had time for that. I even left a suggestion that to keep stagger and make it viable only apply it to Elites as to make them more ELITE and remove it from the “trash” mobs as to keep them “trash”. And Fatshark KNEW what they where doing. They just choose not to listen to the many concerns that came up during the beta. And there we’re MANY concerns. They had this information, This feedback for several months before the release and they still managed to mess this up is nothing less than staggering.
All of this suddenly came to fruition with Patch 2.0 to the base game. People started to change their review to negative on the base game because they changed the game to much and in to short of a time span. Me included, I changed to negative because I didn’t like that Fatshark did to one of my favorite games.
Not only that. The moment Winds of Magic turned official and review started to roll in Fatshark quickly realized how massivly they has ****ed this one up.
This can most clearly be seen due to their reaction in the Patch notes quoted below:
That’s right, They changed the stagger changes to such a degree that they nearly reverted them. They realized that “maybe going against the majority of our fanbase was not really such a great idea”
Sadly they realized this way to late. Fatshark had every opportunity to listen and take in the feedback that was provided during the closed extended beta. And they choose to ignore it. They brought the game to the brink of destruction. They did this believing this is what the community wanted. But in the circumstances they created. It wasn’t. And in the process of doing this they ruined a perfecly good game and tarnished their reputation with it.
I will never ever again help Fatshark with any beta of any kind since I know for a fact. They don’t want your feedback. They will do whatever they want to anyway and it’s evident based on the results of Winds of Magic and Patch 2.0. And I feel strongly even giving them another chance at this point. That would be a massive stretch from my part.
Vermintide 2 was a great game. Maybe they have repaired it with the lastest patch but honestly it’s to late. You knew Fatshark, YOU KNEW. All I feel that is left to say about this once wonderful game is this:
Vermintide 2
1100 hours player signing off
God damn…
EVERYONE should read that ^^^
NOW!
Thank you @Silvah SO much for your detailed and passionate response!
Two quotes:
Honestly? I mean, with respect, I FULLY believe you, but… are you SURE this isnt coming ONLY from a feeling of disappointment? I can hear the passion in your words, and I thank you VERY much for the time you took to respond so bluntly to the topic but… again… Is this REALLY true?
And…
^ Was. The WAS part. Damn
EDIT: Oh and your post was so compelling and raw, that I forgot to say what I wanted to say
You started off by saying its too late. I think I know the context you said it in, and yes, sadly it is. 2.0, WoM and the mess it brought, has ALREADY landed in our laps and there is no going back
But… here is a pessimist being optimistic…
They can LEARN from it – if they choose
They can LISTEN to customers in the future – if they choose
They can CLEAN UP the mess they made – if they choose
and I hope…
it will BE their choice
Given how much feedback was provided regarding Stagger in particular. Yes, They don’t want your feedback. Otherwise the logical thing to do would have been to seek a middle ground. Which they didn’t. Until after the reviews started coming in full negative force.
This is how I personally feel regarding feedback to Fatshark. They seem to mainly care about anything that agrees and pats them on the back telling them what a good job they did.
See it this way. If I where to write a book. And I wanted feedback on the book? Would I ask my family members to give me that feedback? No, They would be biased. The same could be said for any fanboy of Vermintide 2. They will most probably agree with anything they do.
I used to be a fanboy aswell back in the day. But with age comes a certain degree of self criticism. And the fact that I loved this game and gained so much enjoyment from it allowed me to truly point out it’s flaws and errors.
But as you can expect. It was to no point at all.
Which is also the reason why I stated in my first wall of text that the best thing Fatshark can do right now. Is to man up, apologize for this unsatisfactory result and simply move on to the next thing. Don’t put anymore effort into the Winds of Magic. It’s already done for.
Oh I should say I have NOT bought the expansion, and I cant see myself buying it. Not for the same reasons, but because I am disgusted by the fact that they want MORE money for an expansion that was developed while ignoring customer feedback
<— fan of the game yes, but sure have my limits, and WoM was it
Ok I hear you loud and clear
Thanks again @Silvah for posting here your obviously passionate views and honest experiences
I’m just one of many who share this opinion. All of my friends who played Vermintide 2 have quit the game and changed their review to negative on the base game. None of them seems to have any intention of returning for now.
Winds of Magic is now at 34% MOSTLY NEGATIVE on Steam. It just keep dropping with everyday that goes by. And it seems to not have any inclination of turning the trend.
Who knows, maybe in a distant future when they release the versus mode I might come back and give it a try. But if the stagger system is still in the game by then… Then Fatshark will become a closed chapter for me. Permanently.
We have two problems here:
Call it arrogance, call it stubbornness, call it whatever you like, the results are painfully visible.