NEW Topic - CONTINUED discussion - Fatshark needs to LISTEN to customers

[flisker]

@TmanDW

Indeed. So the stagger-for-damage system has NO INFLUENCE ON DIFFICULTY OR PLAYSTYLE here.

It has, because I’m pushing for defensive purpose not offensive. Like I have big amount of enemies on me and they are all doing the f*ckin running attacks from miles away and turning on me, i have to push them and dodge. It’s not like in this situation I’m pushing them and attacking them. I’m pushing them and attacking different non-pushed mobs for example.

If there is 5 fanatics, I would not push them if there was no dmg bonus. I would just stagger them with attacking and dodge the incoming attacks.

If you got possible 40-70% dmg bonus on staggering/pushing than it absolutely does have big influence.

Also another thing is, that if other people stagger fanatics/marauder for example with let’s say executioner, those guys are getting pushed around and it’s not really possible to headshot them properly which sucks also. Especially if you try to use daggers.

@TmanDW

Do the math: If you open a fight with a push instead of an attack, the damage you lose from the first move not being an attack will not be compensated by the damage bonus from the stagger from your push.

Yea, that is correct.

@TmanDW

This is especially true if you chose specific talents like assassin, smiter, or increased power.

I did some more testing on modded, and there doesn’t seem to be any implicit stagger levels on attacks now, so the talents do make sense. But now we are in the situation where you kinda really have to fire up modded realm, get mods and go spawns mobs and tweak your build if you want to get some proper results.

So in current situation, the system seems to make sense, but it’s still pretty complicated compared to what it was before. Which adds difficulty and some people sure won’t like it.

As for me, I will do more testing and I will adapt.

@TmanDW

Stagger-for-damage as-is also HAS NO NEGATIVE EFFECT ON WEAPON CHOICE . You replied to me before in an earlier post in this thread about how the current meta is narrow anyways? Yes, but that is because of all the other stuff .

What other stuff you have in mind ?

@TmanDW

Exactly. So much has changed. And everybody is staring themselves blind on stagger-for-damage as a culprit for the changed feeling. But is is only helping, and not harming, right now! Forget the first editions of the closed Beta. The difference between then and now is HUGE .

I would not say that another complex global mechanic on top of many other massive changes is ever good idea. Because than you don’t even know what is cause of what. And from 1.6 to 2.0, there was many major changes.

@TmanDW

On Legend: Crit one shot; no (I think?).

Yea on Legend, with some proper build.

@TmanDW

But I believe it could already do that on Witch Hunter Captain with some power vs. Chaos in 1.6 anyways.

Rapier was doing nothing to CW’s in 1.6 , You would need like +500% power

I have to test it today, if it’s really true. But I got the info from pretty good player so I doubt he was talking nonsense.

[Maud]

@flisker

Very good players were running it solo. Normal way, killing stuff, with kinda any weapon on nearly any class.

Welp you are good but i always considered stuff like animation cancelling complete garbo and never used it. I watched the vid but it takes you 1 max 2 swing to kill stuff while i use 7-8. I now understand how people solo Legend but isn’t that kinda boring? I mean it’s pretty much abuses everything that in my opinion should not be in coop game. Like ability to deal with pretty much any elite in 1-2 swings.

Welp every one like to do their own things. Your way of the game is pretty much min/maxing and using the best possible solutions for problem(which may be fun for you) but that kind of things isn’t very fun for me. For example i would prefer assassins being like real assassins with nearly zero chance to dodge or kill them alone. I would like to delete some forms of skill expression and give more ways for teamwork. Now it’s pretty much “Let’s spam more enemies so skilled people would not be able to react and kill it solo”

[flisker]

@Maud

Welp you are good but i always considered stuff like animation cancelling complete garbo and never used it.

I absolutely agree, it needs to go away. But I’m not talking about animation canceling.

@Maud

I watched the vid but it takes you 1 max 2 swing to kill stuff while i use 7-8.

No ? What exactly do you mean ? I sure as hell am not cheating in any of vids, except for some grayzone stuff that is the QQ cancel on 2H hammer, which is very rare.

There is no way, you need 7-8 hits on enemy I can kill in 1 or 2.

Difference between terrrible build and good one, is that on good one you can reach kills on 1 less hit. So maybe you need 3 hits normally, and you take some +power vs skaven and you can kill that mob in 2. That is kinda all as far as min maxing went so far.

Now in 2.0 it’s much more complicated with the stagger mechanic. And the new vids actually have sh*tty builds because I did not have access to modded realm in beta and started testing stuff only yesterday.

[hgjw]

Even with the new stagger i really don’t see min/max builds reaching more than 1 maybe 2 less hits on most enemies. That 7-8 hit range sounds like you are hitting legend with 0 power weapons.

[Maud]

@flisker

There is no way, you need 7-8 hits on enemy I can kill in 1 or 2.

1st i suck at the game.
2nd i may be over-exaggerating but i clearly remember that i could oneshot some Elites with Glaive and it took me 4-5 spear hits to kill the same elite. (Note i pretty much exclusively used spear on WS) I pretty much dont know anything about weapons in general it just was my personal experience in the game(Mb i played when smth were bugged or not buffed to current state idk)

[Viber123]

That is SO right @flisker and hopefully @TmanDW gets it now

[Viber123]

Ok this is a little OT… but…

@Maud, that is one of the reasons I dont use spear in any situation, on any career. When compared, glave is SO much better - well - ALL of her other options imo lol

I can see you may like to use it, but it sure aint a good 1:1 comparison. Those weapons? One is GOOD and one is TRASH - tho still can be FUN, and in the end, this is a game. Have FUN with whatever weapon you LIKE to use! (waits for those spear lovers to cringe at the truth haha)

[akaLuckyEye]

Everyone is allowed to have a opinion but saying that Fatshark has to listen to there customers opinion and your point of view is the truth is very strange. English is not your native language maybe and something got lost in translation but I feel that it’s arrogant and rude to say you have the true opinion.

You have the right to speak you opinion and your opinion is not wrong (or right), a opinion is personal but the way you communicate this can be interpreted as rude. Communicate ones opinion in a less aggressive way creates a better environment to have a discussion in. You don’t feel like you have to put up a wall to defend you stand on the matter.

I personally have no problem with the changes and I do not feel that champion is legendary now and Legendary is Legendary+. I can’t speak for the lower difficulty levels because I don’t play on them.

But I understand your frustration if it takes away from your experience of the game. I like a challenge and like when it is hard but that is not everyone’s view and if some changes can be made to make it more enjoyable for people that want to play on lower difficulties I don’t see the problem with that.

The only thing I have a hard time with is that the Beastmen attacks feels a bit off. The range for the spear attacks and when they do a headbutt is much longer then it looks like it should be.
And I don’t know if this is something that i just need to get use to or a patch is needed.

[Drakonhammer]

@TmanDW

Do the math: If you open a fight with a push instead of an attack, the damage you lose from the first move not being an attack will not be compensated by the damage bonus from the stagger from your push.

You made a lot of good points even if I don’t necessarily agree with all of them, but what I’d like to point out with this one is if your weapon puts them on level 2 on hit one that is in fact a DPS increase vs every other weapon. Likewise a weapon that fails to stagger a specific elite on the first swing loses out on DPS vs one that can.

Even if you take a bypass talent to compensate on the former, the ones that have the CC can instead take a talent that increases their damage even further.

@TmanDW

This is especially true if you take into consideration that your first attack will also cause some stagger, Especially since the last few patches Fatshark made

Yeah, this has definitely helped even things out more - it helped make a lot of weapons that had become bad good vs horde enemies again. They feel better to use once more.

@Maud

2nd i may be over-exaggerating but i clearly remember that i could oneshot some Elites with Glaive and it took me 4-5 spear hits to kill the same elite. (Note i pretty much exclusively used spear on WS) I pretty much dont know anything about weapons in general it just was my personal experience in the game(Mb i played when smth were bugged or not buffed to current state idk)

You’re better off comparing glaive now vs glaive before or spear now vs spear before. Glaive has always been great.

Spear is good too but it’s a precision weapon (keep in mind I haven’t touched it since pre-WoM), you always needed to land HS with it to get full value. Its combos are a little more involved than glaive too, as you weave in a lot of pushes for the cleave with your lights vs dense hordes (eg push → light → push → light, repeat) and vs elites you either do one or two lights then a heavy and repeat. It has great defense and mobility though.

Glaive is much more forgiving (apart from its ass stamina), and its heavies are very easy to use to dish out a ton of AP dmg. On glaive you literally only need to throw out lights vs hordes and maybe the odd push (though with its low defense you only do that rarely at most, unless on HM), meanwhile the heavy is equally straightforward, you upswing for good damage and then quickly downswing the elite for even better damage. Block/dodge. Repeat.

[Bankrotas]

@Drakonhammer

You’re better off comparing glaive now vs glaive before or spear now vs spear before. Glaive has always been great.

Speaking of it. I’ve been doing 100 game helmet runs on Kerillian last few days. Am I wrong remembering glaive not abruptly stopping after 2-3 enemies? Like you hit an elite mixed in with the infantry, but there’s no elite. It honestly is annoying effect.

[Drakonhammer]

@Bankrotas

You’re better off comparing glaive now vs glaive before or spear now vs spear before. Glaive has always been great.

Speaking of it. I’ve been doing 100 game helmet runs on Kerillian last few days. Am I wrong remembering glaive not abruptly stopping after 2-3 enemies? Like you hit an elite mixed in with the infantry, but there’s no elite. It honestly is annoying effect.

Hrm, now that you mention it, I seem to remember encountering a bug of that sort once or twice before. It was evidently either not common enough or not problematic enough for me to think the glaive was bad though, it’s always been my favourite elf weapon personally.

It definitely shouldn’t be happening all the time. Is it the cleave nerf? Or is it getting flat out interrupted midswing? I haven’t used it since the early WoM betas as I’ve mainly been playing around with elf’s other weapons lately.

[Viber123]

@akaLuckyEye

Everyone is allowed to have a opinion but saying that Fatshark has to listen to there customers opinion and your point of view is the truth is very strange. English is not your native language maybe and something got lost in translation but I feel that it’s arrogant and rude to say you have the true opinion.

I hear you. However, I sure hope this isnt how everyone perceives it

I obviously dont mean it literally, and all encompassing, but if you read the thread and my replies in its entirety, you will see that this ISNT what I am saying. I am simply asking why would Fatshark NOT listen to, and implement changes TOWARDS the suggestions of their own beta testers? The FACT that they didnt, or you didnt UNDERSTAND that that is what I was saying, should be cleared up with this response

So THAT ^ isnt an opinion

However, I am SURE there are those that LIKE these 2.0 changes. But, and as harsh as it is to hear… those people are very likely… in the MINORITY. Its being reacted to now, and watch how the storm begins to build. Watch reviews? Steam reviews? Listen to players on this thread? I dont know what will convince you that FS did NOT listen to their player base, but saying they DID is simply not true in this context

EDIT: I should point out here though, that a minority opinion, or one I dont agree with (those are not always the same either) still needs to be voiced. So to that end, I appreciate your input. We all do

[Viber123]

Cleave, balance. It will no doubt change, but yeah I know. Feels like a cleave nerf across the board, not just glaive

[Bankrotas]

Yeah, even with that it fine weapon, just jarring. Feels as if you were swinging a Smiter type weapon like a 1handed axe or hammer just sideways.

@Viber123

Cleave, balance. It will no doubt change, but yeah I know. Feels like a cleave nerf across the board, not just glaive

I have a suspicion that it’s one of key changes that do give people feeling of a week weapon and make the combat unfun for them.

[Viber123]

Yep. A result of stagger resistance being a CORE thing now? Maybe it is just a few changes to the weapon itself as a continued balance effort? I dont know, but you are right. Weapons, that you were previously used to having a certain effect, now just dont perform the way they used to

I believe the result of this is the ‘shields are the new meta’ response. That now, because stagger is the new core mechanic, and enemies just cant be dealt with in the ways you used to be able to deal with them, a shield fills the hole in the meta left by 2.0

I am very glad they buffed shielded weapons dodge though. Just that alone was a step in the right direction, but almost everything else save a few fun talents? Yeah. Feels… off.

EDIT: VERY good point and I totally agree. Perhaps the cleave nerf is having a more negative effect on player experiences than we realize!

@Bankrotas

I have a suspicion that it’s one of key changes that do give people feeling of a week weapon and make the combat unfun for them.

^ Well said.

[SmokerT69]

I use to use the glaive a lot on HM. I pretty much mined WS and HM, as in 8 out of 10 games I played on one of those two classes. The glaive feels really bad, which it shouldn’t. I saw that 15% attack speed buff on HM and thought, " ah man, glaive is gonna be sick now". Equipped it and it plays like garbage compared to before WoM. Meanwhile daggers are absolutely amazing now… I dunno. The weapons really need some tweaks

[Bankrotas]

I think stagger mechanic on shields alone and roll the talents into weapon traits would’ve given more variety rather than what they did currently.

[Maud]

@Drakonhammer

Its combos are a little more involved than glaive too, as you weave in a lot of pushes for the cleave with your lights vs dense hordes (eg push → light → push → light, repeat) and vs elites you either do one or two lights then a heavy and repeat. It has great defense and mobility though.

That’s why i absolutely love spear)

Btw guys how do you feel about number inflation instead new mechanics to up the difficulty? I feel like there is so many ways to make game harder without changing the numbers.

[Bankrotas]

Didn’t fixing terror event scaling alone make it seriously challenging. I mean how often do you finish Convocation of Decay on legend with full book run?

[Viber123]

My GOD are you SO on the MONEY here!!!

One part… check THIS quote. SO true @Maud

@Maud

I feel like there is so many ways to make game harder without changing the numbers.

I am NOT trying to be rude here, but seriously… DUH!!!

You’d think Fatshark would LISTEN and SEE that? Dunno why they chose THIS road, as it seems to have quite a few potholes and in dire need of some pavement! lol