and maybe answer?=^! ? or just explain why ?
It’s hard to disagree with the words from the movie. IMO FS was not well thought out whole project and this is simply beyond their strength.
In one thing I just don’t agree with milkandcookies, I don’t believe in anything the FS will say anymore.
Well he talks without any though about why they did it, outside of lenght of game, why kill lords again? Because they were overhauled and if you want cata prove that you can do it with remade lords. He though about them as bad thing.
Not well received nerf to dodge and thp? For crying out loud gosh ppl you wanted it you got it, and its actually good change, learn and adapt because skill ceiling didnt go sky high, there were like 10% of them valid complain (mostly because bugs or strange mechanics that FS didn’t told us about like stagger treshold). You dont need to focus on stagger bonus damage at all its optional and its not that game changing for most of weapons, it will boost those that had hard time doing anything significant (shields 2hd hammers)
Maybe will watch rest later
I hope you understand that when people refer to the “stagger system” they’re using it as a summary of doubling enemy HP, Increasing stagger resist and reducing cleave right? Nobody’s literally complaining about what staggering is or how it works, they’re complaining because the game adjusted in a manner that makes combat feel like you’re running in to push enemies over before dispatching them, rather than being an additive mechanic in combat and an incentive to use crowd control.
Funny. I just saw that one and thought about posting it here. I agree with almost all of it 100%.
Fatshark seems to have a lot of problems when it comes to listening to the community as opposed to a small group of elite players. Their content releases have been extremely slow, their bugs/glitches/etc… are terrible and when fixed usually come back in the later patch for whatever reason. Imo the programming for VT2 probably has zero use to comments (text that has zero impact on coding - simply to state what is what) and combined with poor organization results in a bogged down game of slow releases and a ton of bugs.
That being said the video does have a lot of things correct.
Weaves game mode is extremely flawed.
1: Game mode no one really wanted.
2: Further splits the player base by a large amount.
3: Crafting system introduce that is extremely limited and grind focused - seasonal resets is stupid.
4: Static maps/enemy spawns offers little replay value. Even less then the base game which has random enemies at least.
5: Zero difficulty scaling with players. You pretty much need 4 player groups to advance.
Beastmen are incomplete and buggy. Only 1 monster, 1 elite, and 1 special and their spawning and sounds are extremely buggy. I just had a game where I turned around having beastmen spawning out of nowhere followed eventually by an ambush sound. Programming for this game is terrible.
Cataclysm only enforces the push attack meta that is currently the thing to do. Sad that Dodge got nerfed and enemy tracking hits buffed which really messes those with latency issues.
Lack of skins for the new weapons and having ravaged art spawn in the level without any ravaged art reward are glaring omissions to a incomplete expansion having only 1 map for Beastmen.
Learn and adapt is such a weak counter statement at this point.
I was back at my 80% winrate in Legend and was about 1 in 9 on a good day in cata depending on the map, which is a good deal more than what most other “git gudders” perform at. But it’s a metric ton less fun and far more buggy than I can reasonably find a point to enjoy. So I stopped. Skilled play is severely hampered when you now pay a damage tax for not playing the game in a single arbitrary way, one-shots are whatever, that’s fine, but losing of vital information is a crapshoot. And there’s nothing fun about having to sit in a location and inch forward 10 meters at a time to actually progress depending on how many flag bois they turn at you. Which is what you do. We’ve gone from multiple, varied ways and methods of approach, from people actually going out of there way to stage rescues and the ability for a person to shine in player expression, to exactly 1 ONE method of correct play. Let me just bunch up, look at this wave, and spam left click while I dodge left and right repeatedly until it’s our turn to start moving forward again, only to get stonewalled by specials, hordes integrating with ledges, locations past PONRs with 0 protection against 360 approach, or just a really crappy combination of spawns.
So now that I stopped playing with a high overall consistent clear rate, what now? Should I find ways to adapt to something that is no longer a problem in difficulty? Play with my friends? They quit! They hate these changes! Go into weaves? So sorry those might as well be solo content for how few people try to QP into them.
When Armored Core for Answer made sweeping balance changes, you know what they did? Had the ability to play on a particular patch with the balance changes you liked the most. Course the population ain’t large enough for that, and you don’t want to leave the 2.0ers with absolutely nothing to do while the beta to current 1kers go back to having fun, so we’re now all stuck in this state that appeals the wannabes and the infamous low clear rate difficulty junkies.
Really shoulda just made a alternative difficulty mode so the goons could pat themselves on the back on a job well failed while people could get back to having another 1.2k hours of fun.
I am sorry but this is such a congnitive bias that I had to reply
Learn to adapt still holds true, the game was released 2 days ago?
You are telling me that you can see and understand the plethora of changes that have been made within 2 days?
Also people should stop posting Win rates as it has nothing to do with the argument of why you are struggling for several reasons.
- We don´t no know the context behind this and several counterarguments apply:
A. You could have been carried through legend
B. You could have been using cheese spots in order to increase your Win Rate
In which case the win rate argument is null and void
As for your statement about skilled play being severely hammpered
No, not at all if anything it increases skilled play which is hard to grasp but there is more to Vermintide then just chaindodge endlessly without enemies being able to reach you and that is exactly what has been changed.
It increases the skill level if anything because the requirements in order to pull of clutches is much higher now than it was before
Secondly, in my experience people seem to exaggerate in most of their arguements.
As for your last sentence, I am one of those ‘‘goons’’ and you sound really salty.
Ïf it is so completely impossible for you to adapt to a few changes or give it sometime to adapt then I suggest you either start reading some tutorials and whatch some high level gameplay or look elsewhere for your satisfaction.
Well, nobody here is saying “milkandcookies said it, therefore it’s the objective truth”.
People are just agreeing with what he said in the video.
Is that wrong?
It’s not uncommon for people to rally behind others that share the same opinion, but holds a larger authority than themselves (this is the foundation of modern politics, at least in represantative democracies), so when a “big boy” like milkandcookies says something, and you agree with that something, surely you’re allowed to share it without being shut down immediately by:
“You’re committing a logical fallacy by sharing it.”
“It’s not something formulated by yourself, therefore you’re intellectually lazy by sharing it.”
That being said, I too do not condone people blindly following others’ words as a gospel just because they are more well known.
However, I wouldn’t say that’s the length people here are taking it to. At least not yet.
And now that it’s based all around the push stagger meta, it’s entirely better and more skilled based, right?
All that really happened was that hordes turned into tedium on Cataclysm.
How about the still buggy Beastmen? I’m sure you’ve just got so much skill at turning around and checking to see if you’re going to be head butted by a stealth Gor pack.
@LordRhinark hit the nail here. While there are certain aspects i don’t fully agree with milkandcookies the general message from the video is still totally something i can get behind with especially when talking about the current dlc policy and the problems with weaves in general.
this isn’t the struggling beginnings of politics or rising from caveman. it’s a game. citing some video on YouTube as your opinion, one not even made by you, and claiming it sorta represents your point of view (then telling us how it doesn’t exactly) - idk - why post it then if not an attempt to cite authority. later confirmed by the ‘hes a big boy’ as if being on YouTube carried any networth in an argument. hint, if an argument influences anyone solely because the person who made it is on YouTube then I’ll show you a lackwit. make an argument, back it up, and then stand by it. but we’ll, I sorta agree with him isn’t impressive or influential.
wjy not just post your own opinion. don’t cite someone else. he’s not a big boy. he bought the same game you did and his opinion is worth about what yours or mine is worth. but if his opinion is going to get tossed in the let him do it instead of you carrying his water.
finally if you disagree with me that’s OK. we can disagree, life’s boring if we all agreed in everything. isn’t it?
but don’t like what I say and so try to get it blocked by the site. that alone tells me tons about the strength of your arguments, so strong the need to censor others. bravo
milkandcookies isn’t noteworthy solely for the fact that he has a YouTube channel alone.
He’s noteworthy because he’s been a content creator for the game ever since it was first announced, and thus has great experience with the game itself.
Yes, he doesn’t have any concrete influence or power over Fatshark, but having a content creator say something about your product carries more weight than just the average shmoe consumer.
Several people have already posted their own opinion on the forums. At some point, what you want to say has already been said countless times already.
It is, dare I say, literally impossible to have an opinion that is 100% your own.
This isn’t about an opinion being “worth” more than someone else’s (which is the root of the logical fallacy you mention), it’s about an opinion Fatshark is more likely to listen to.
Boring is subjective.
I, for one, would much rather prefer a world where everybody could agree on everything.
Sadly, mankind was made with independent thought.
A post, to my knowledge at least, needs flags from several individual users before it is hidden, and it only stays hidden if the staff finds it justified (for example, in case of the post being insulting or harassing in nature, which, be honest, the crassness was fairly misplaced).
See the plethora of changes? There’s not that much to take in. But funny you say that, when people talk about game feel people say it’s the same game, when people say not enough change they say it’s completely different. I really wish people would make up their mind.
On the topic of win rate, what is that supposed to mean:
I get greens though it’s not as if the silly things matter, I win in varied maps, and you’re conflating that to say that a person who consistently can now see victory is only doing so because they’re exploiting “cheese spots or being carried” when there’s only one common denominator?
Me thinks you’re projecting your success rate onto others.
Onto your two off hand comments:
- On the so called chain dodge endlessly:
That’s important now more than it ever was. Beast hordes spearmen and gors in general have access to three attacks amongst the entire horde with next to no windup that will absolutely obliterate you. The punch, the headbut, and the spears spearing you through other beastmen. Hyper stacking and problems with the slot mean that even with two people to a side, you’re not safe. Nothing’s changed here and you’re still circle *dodgechaining *around patrols to eliminate them.
- On the so called increased skill level
Skilled environments promote skilled play.
Firstly, Much like before there are still simply lose conditions, now more than ever based on what map you play. The best way to clutch those is to never let things snowball.
Secondly the environment and the tools require rules to encourage growth on a persona level
If you’re talking glibly about tutorials I suggest you go and read my post about the 4 S’s.
- Spawns that fabricate out of thin air
- Beastmen spawns into thin air. And please feel free to argue with actual footage poste.
- Silent Spawns
- Lack of audio queues
- The return of infinite horde music.
- Stacking rules and the changes to vision based on the changes to durability
- Stuck bosses and point blank bosses
- The return of specials pathing inside each other along the exact same route
- Silent specials silent teleports
- And how in the hell are point blank patrols back?
Are not conducive to skilled play. Games a buggy nightmare again. So you now have to constantly watch your back in case an enemy just pops up out of nowhere. Have to appreciate an entirely different philosophy for even the smallest of beast ambients because their inability to actually be affected by the slot system make them relatively dangerous to fight. Differences to horde mechanics, the introduction of stagger, and the simplification of approach philosophies are also not conducive to skilled play.
Just because you’re a great player doesn’t mean your allies are going to be, you have to stick on them now more than ever because the “carry” is harder, because specials are more dangerous relatively, you need them, in my case, to kill them. The changes to special engagement range (rattling gunners, gasrats) on top of a harder overall method of dispatch (changes to slot and durability for clarity) makes it absolutely imperative that your total ammo count remains high enough. Surrounds happen more frequently due to more meat simply being thrown at the player which makes meat walls.
Ledges are ironically the most dangerous crap in this game again. If a drop happens either from out of sight ambients and you don’t notice it because they’re engagement trigger is still delayed of sometimes upwards to an entire minute again your movement is now obstructed by more hyperstacked meat.
The above is followed and amplified. Some finales have entire quarters of it devoid of ammo which runs up problems in a never ending stream of specials. The only skilled counter are options that provide inbuilt ammo refresh which depending on the roll of the dice may or may not be enough. Were I still inclined to run to prove this chip on my shoulder I have no doubt that I’d see a very marginal change in success rate going into pugs.
Even insinuating the factors above lead to more individual expression, methods of approach, and skilled exploration is… misguided at best. And goon was a general statement. This one is more targeted. Don’t project your apparently low success rate on me.
And finally the real capstone of your counterpoint:
Given that we’re at “mixed” reception in reviews, the community is divided, and other various nuances, with some players much like myself who have supported this game and spread it’s community through other mediums like twitch and youtube across thousand(s) of hours the statement “hey the game you liked isn’t for you now, go play something else” is. Well frankly it’s silly. Should we lose another half the next time something happens that you now don’t like as they changed the game up completely a third time?
Well frankly I have no qualms with the WoW approach. That is sarcasm. What utter rubbish.
And as an edited postword:
I’m sure I’m a bit (see a lot) negatively biased. All but 2 people on my list and in my group are not on about the changes, one of them left a scathing (albeit misguided) negative review. Personally I think that’s silly. We’ve seen the game go through multiple sweeping changes. A month from now the bugs will likely be all fixed up and the conversation will have changed. However my environment is thus now negative which made my streams negative so I have a negative taste in my mouth. Which now results in negative interaction. The game I’ve supported for thousands of hours ain’t that feeling all that fresh in the wake of these factors. So a bit obscured in my judgement? I also accept to be true. I’ll try to ese up in the future.
But goons saying “hey go play something else” Well that’s just silly. I won’t accept that.
Exactly. Sometimes it just does not make sense to repeat exactly the same point of view as presented by several other people.
That’s why sometimes it’s enough to say “Hey, I agree with this”.
You insinuated I had a low win rate. What did that have to do with anything? Don’t get your feathers ruffled when somebody throws things back at you. Else treat people how you want to be treated.
Most of my statements in my post are about bugs that are currently plaguing the game that aren’t adaptable really and hamper skilled play. Well whatever.
I am assuming at this point that you are not able to read properly because why else would you get salty about something I didn´t even say.
I said your WIN rate has nothing to do with the argument of the mechanical changes what so ever.
This is the last I am gonna say, doesn´t seem like look like you are willing to decrease your saltlevel at this point.
You are lashing out to whoever dares to counter argue and missdirect your anger when it all comes down to each and indivuals willingness to invest time into the game, of which apparently you don´t have enough.
Doesn´t seem logical to argue any further
Enemy hp wasn’t doubled, only slave rats got bigger hp boost rest got 10%, and players got 50 more power some weapons got massive buff other nerf etc thats normal.
And no game don’t feel like running in to push enemies, you still can dodge dance around them like before but you can’t be so close to them especially to beastmen.
@Rumeht (not sure how to tag multiple replies)
I find game way more fun right now because its actually challenge and you can’t run like idiots into enemy, Yeah beastmen need some fine tuning (stacking like crazy and hits for 60 when stacked, kinda strange like that mechanic for stacked enemies dont work for them)
And you still can breeze through most of levels, level end events are right now beast to fight and that great alteast something that you dread to fight not slog through it from boredom (fort and horn of magnus was boring as hell, now its actually adrenaline rush)
And if you stacking horde thats your problem that you stop in place. People don’t know that you can go with them to your preferable place of fight instead stand ground on wahtever place they found you out.
Problem lies in that champion and legend have waaay to big gap of hardness, and you can be bored on champion but fail spectacularly on legend.
I prefer fun ratio instead of win ratio and games fell right now great, for one I loved engines of war because how hardcore that event with barrels can be, it make you dread and look forward to it.
Game need finetuning but we getting it with time, its no place to ragequit because you didn’t get instantly super perfected balance with big change into game.
This is such a disingenuous dismissal. Citing an authority figure and claiming they’re right because they’re an authority figure is a logical fallacy yes, but that isn’t the point of this thread.
milkandcookies formulated and put to words concerns that a lot of people have (as evidenced in comments etc), it’s not about ‘authority,’ it’s about representing their concerns/arguments well, so that people understand what they don’t like, which he does.
Also, they don’t have to concur with his every point to concur with his overall message.
You misunderstand, all finale events being buffed is a good thing. They were jokes and depending on the map the absolute worst part of the entire thing.
And man oh man is this about to get extremely friggin wordy.
The game was too easy, too much player power existed, and with how thp was after the change it was even easier to just ride the high of either a wave or kills and stay healthy forever. It wasn’t so much so that you didn’t take damage, you did, it was simply far too easy to be immortal no matter who you were playing with. People who ape on other people’s opinion about “dodge spamming” are misguided at best. t.HP gen was simply out of the world imbalanced. All risk assessment ignored when you knew you could start farming off of entire chaos patrols DURING a horde. And depending on who you’re playing as, it still is There needed to be a change. And make no mistake despite my misgivings I’m glad there was. Even if I’m not glad that allegedly feedback from beta ultimately wasn’t taken to heart unlike the second big balance beta.
- My actual expectations of cataclysm ain’t far off from what it is now. Sure like 3 finales need to be scrubbed clean with balance soap and the people in charge of balancing them beaten, scorned, shunned, and obliterated, (i kid obviously) but it’s alright. Or rather, a lot of the changes would have been alright if they didn’t completely change too much crap all at the same time, reintroduce bugs squashed as far as the 1.2’s, and make crap stacking and slot just walls of meat now.
- Just because I like some changes doesn’t mean I’m going to hold all of them, and indeed I don’t and won’t. And in another life I would have a lot of words, at length, about damage taken in downed states. As it is right now pugs are being discouraged from even attempting to raise somebody. 30% block cost don’t mean jack all in a horde, there are specials spawning, and you have maybe 2 seconds to pick somebody up before they die. That’s probably not what they were wanting when it comes to teamplay.
Finally, finally(?) It’s not about winning or losing. I mean I play rougelikes and was basically weaned on anything from nethack to Shiren. It’s about control.
Lemme explain some gamefeel and improvement loops:
I’ve made posts before and it still stands that I have my most fun when situations are the most dire. They’ve certainly created methods to cause that to happen, but in the wrong way in my personal opinion.
So from anything to fighting games down to aforementioned roguelikes, sure the unexpected can happen, bad rolls, unlucky, wrong moves, but at the end you can take a reflective analysis and make plans to improve your gameplan.
This loop of self improvement leads to skilled growth and eventually to creative expression.
You’ll have to forgive the archaic X and Y’s. I wouldn’t want to have to start hapring about another game at you
- Oh yeah I could just do X and I wouldn’t have had Y happen to me when I got to Z
- X is pretty efficient but Y takes less time
- I did something and X happened, if I take precautions to deal with X I can let it happen and still recover
- X happened and I have nothing. While I am dead it teaches me to either carry Y or find better ways to handle X the next time it happens*
Identification, assessment, risks and precautions, implementations, and observation of the finished result. Take each death as a point to focus improvement on. Create an environment that enables fun, and ultimately act that out.
The problem ultimately occurs when an activity happens that feel like there is only one feasible (given my weapon loadout, the only way to handle risk adequately is to fight at this one particular spot) solution or worse, no solution (caused by bugs or just encounter design).
e.g; An enemy appeared out of thin air and tagged my back.
In beta this was fine because it was typically a dinky rat. Now it’s not because you could essentially be downed with no reaction time. This sours a lot of moods I’d imagine.
Some more track of difficulty I just found
For people who want an overall difficulty increase I’m sure the game is what they wanted now. But as with any game, the more you improve the more you push back. And in cases like this either the game or the player breaks.
- people basically soloing Legend and some deeds while dragging the rest of their now unwilling teammates behind them who aren’t having fun with the lack of interaction
- people getting frustrated and feel like deaths they take are a combination of attributes outside of their control or that the dangers of having fun outweigh the risk of completion.
Hey this way to play to minimize risk isn’t very fun but the alternatives induce a unacceptable level of risk and requires control of factors that can’t be controlled (special combinations) so what do I do
I’m not a heartless monster. I’d never force my pace and preferred playstyle on a group of randoms who maybe just want to clear. Not really fair to them.
An example is that if a horde spawns you should tighten up now.
In l4D (and l4D2) on expert people did this (excluding finales and some events) in a multitude of ways. Either pull in or push forward with the ability to split and seek objectives. Safe in the factors available that should worse come to worse you still have the tools necessary to handle the unexpected with proper implementation. There’s tons of environmental chokes, weapons and items necessary to cover distance or create some for lengthy periods of time, so on and so forth. These unexpected actions being things that inherently remove control like getting boomed up, somebody getting charged, pounced at the most inopportune moment, or even dying.
Live currently does not have that. If you’re 2/2 on a side in cata and somebody goes down and their body gets gassed from a globadier throwing out of line-of-sight, depending on what you even have available and what event you’re doing, they’re simply dead. If you push forward and you’re currently getting flag after flag you’re not going anywhere anytime soon. (And as a side note, if breaking a flag induced heavy stagger to everybody BUT the flag bearer they would be a hell of a lot more fun to engage in)
Harder? Well it certainly is. Bravo zulu for actually achieving that. But I’d like to think that people aren’t actually adverse to difficulty and are more advertise to situations occurring that they feel they can’t manage as well as only being able to play in a certain way per career to maximize their chances of actually seeing things to completion.
Naturally, bugs aside, this is just my two cents. Disagreements are as expected as they are inevitable. But I hold what some may consider an unrealistic expectation that it’s possible to increase difficulty while still allowing for control as other games and genres have done.
It’s possible and encouraged to strive for things to remain more engaging and it’s undeniable that the game was becoming easy for people with our amount of hours in it. But we have an example of changing too much with too little feedback. And what some feel is dubious balancing at best.