Unless I’m wrong I think he means split them up enough to keep them from super stacking inside of each other.
1 Like
Awesome! Thanks!
So now I can reply! I wouldnt before because I couldnt make an important DISTINCTION without your clarification. I dont like being misunderstood, but ironically, I do it all the time lol
The is the distinction is simply that you equate the ‘problem with 2.0’ to be to ‘killing faster’ or ‘killing slower’. Since, problem = stagger-to-damage - a correct assumption, as I believe this IS a problem
The question assumes that because I dont like stagger-to-damage, it MUST be related to the ‘problem’ of kill speed? Explanations forthcoming…
It seems your problem with stagger-to-damage may be different than mine, yours seem to relate to kill speed and honestly I couldnt care less lol
MY problem with stagger-to-damage as a core mechanic isnt related to how quickly I kill something, but with negative immersion effects and the waste of a talent tree section that could have been used for GOOD and not something that required a MAJOR overhaul to the point that the game feels in BETA again… and to TOP it ALL OFF!!! AGAINST THE TESTERS WISHES!!! — calms down — lol
Sorry, its not you. Its this mechanic that everyone HAS to work with now… anyway…
So… to reiterate myself. I dont give a flyin you know what how much stagger affects time to kill (and yes, it does) because time to kill dosent matter to me. Thats not my goal. Speed. Pace a little slower? Thats ok. (faster in some situations) Forcing a little more teamwork? Thats actually an awesome side effect!
So as you can see. Watching a video that shows me that something dies quicker, or dies slower matters not
But, as I have ALSO been talking about, that you may consider in the same sphere as ttk – difficulty.
And YES, difficulty is DIRECTLY affected by the stagger-to-damage model. And TTK is a good way to expose it. And as someone pointed out earlier, using such an old version of the game to compare to the 2.0 changes with respect to TTK isnt optimal. Maybe 1.7? to 2.0? I dont know, but it dosent really matter. TTK is NOT what I am interested in, or imo, what matters with respect to the negative feeling surrounding the game experience right now. Though, I admit, it is definately THE reason for some who have already listed their concerns on here
I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts though. You arent the only one that has felt the difficulty hike since 2.0, but I am more interested in how it ‘feels’ to you. I dont care that it takes 1.644 seconds longer or shorter to kill whatever. I also dont care what the exact numbers are with respect to enemy health anymore as a breakpoint builds are impossible to guarantee (yes, including that assassin talent choice). What I DO care about, is how 2.0 has changed your game experience. I hope that you say it here, and I hope that Fatshark listens
So, you started asking me a question relating my issues to yours, which are not the same. Do you understand?
I didnt need a link!
Was just a blunt WTF are you TALKING about kinda thing - Im sure most ppl were thinking what I typed
I think a rollback would probably be the smartest thing they could do right now, if not for the DLC stuff. This is a huge reason they probably shouldn’t pair enormous, game-changing patches with DLC, honestly. At least some of the stuff not related to stagger is actually good, like the tweaking of enemy animations, though who knows what caused the unexpected stuff we see. I seriously wonder how the same old bugs keep returning. Are they just slapping band-aids on that fall off when things gets jostled?
4 Likes
I’ve close to 1000h played, I love this game, I want Fatshark to do it right. We’ve already seen what happens when they don’t listen to the community, Winds of Magic is currently at “39% Mostly Negative” on steam.
Listen, I want us to get more awesome things to do, sorry to say this, Weaves are not that.
The combat changes was unfounded and not thought through. They changed things in the game that nobody asked for and this pissed of almost everyone.
I can live with combat changes that makes sense, stagger does not.
You added a new difficulty for the players who wanted that, that should have been enough to combat people not playing the game because it feels too easy.
HOWEVER!
Adding 1 new map.
Adding Weaves, a boring, grindy system with the instentive of borders and leaderboards. Nobody asked for this.
Adding beastmen. Ok, this is good, I didn’t expect this at all so I like this. But! We didn’t get enough maps to build the lore! We didn’t get new specials (there should have been at least 2 new specials tbh).
What did fatshark do well?
The Crafting system for weaves are good tbh. But they are locked to Weaves which is just insane! They should have reworked the crafting system and made it more interesting, this is something people have asked for since the start! We are many players that have 1-4000 materials that we have no use for. This needs to be changed! This is something players want. I like how the weave weapons work but since it’s only usable in weaves I won’t touch it.
Deeds, again, rework deeds, make it more interesting, increase the rewards, give us a reason to do deeds. Allow us to craft deeds, give us the ability to add bonuses to a deed but it also adds downsides. For instance, add 4 extra stamina, but dodge distance is reduced 25%. Things like that. And give us either special boxes, cosmetics or something to work for.
Give us maps for beastmen, there should have been atleast 4 maps, 3 normal maps and one boss map to build the lore of beastmen.
Give us a new reward for cataclysm! Come on man! What were you thinking when not doing this? This must be what I’m the most baffled about, what made you think that people want to play an extra hard mode with ZERO reward!
Leaderboards for normal runs. How about that huh? Have a speedrun leaderboard where your time gives you points, tomes give you a 30% bonus and grims gives you a 40% bonus. This would have been easy to implement and I think a lot of people would love that, I could be wrong however.
People want characters, well, I don’t I think it’s good enough with the 5 we have. But, give them new jobs. There are a lot you can do there, add 1 new job for everyone.
Add daily quests or even expiditions for maps to look for something in the levels. Have more NPC:s in the keep, people want a Vampire character, add one as a NPC that gives your group challanges, or even combine them with new maps.
The biggest issue atm is that the DLC was not even close to worth it, this should just have been a content patch or sold for €5.
2 Likes
A rollback WOULD be an upgrade imo… but you actually think they would DO it?
I wish is my answer…
They are literally gonna LOSE popularity, money and reputation if they dont. Well, at least initially
1 Like
To summarize my feelings on the matter, I have just been trying to understand why people have an issue specifically with the stagger system. Because, IMO 2.0 has gotten a lot harder solely because of more intense events, specials and beastmen, but the stagger system hasn’t seemed to affect the difficulty hardly at all (made it easier if anything). Dodge changes hasn’t affected my play style either, but I can understand how that would make it more difficult for the dance troupe.
2 Likes
Could EVERYBODY please do this!?
Thank for the reply @brandter - some NICE content there
So you think the lack of WoM CONTENT is the main problem?
I mean I can see that you reference steam reviews…
Even the most bone-idle dolt could’ve written in crayon what to do to engage the community and had a better guess than Winds of Magic.
- Rework Deeds - solves problem of higher difficulty
- Rework crafting - EXACTLY AS SHOWN IN THE ANATHOR. Solves rerolling stats problem
- Rework Loot - Use ESSENCE to unlock shiny skins rather than RNG hell. CATA gives more essence per run so top players get their shiny skins faster.
- Give 3 maps, or allow QP into Weave style maps. OR just let us play the maps backwards, or in the dark(halloween).
- Add weapons
- Balance changes to 1.6 = Alter Dodge, some weapons buffed/nerfed, little talent changes
- Stuff some football socks in Kerillians Mouth
- Promote Kruber to Elector Count and give him a runefang.
= Dive into a swimming pool of money.
7 Likes
I understand. You dont get why ppl have an issue with the stagger-to-damage model because
Well, I respectfully, am about to list some ways it sure DOES
Stagger-to-damage DIRECTLY affects:
Breakpoints. Gone, as you can NOT build for them anymore because of this change. <— difficulty related? Yes. Level of impact? Subjective. Your weight may be ‘hardly at all’
Killing a boss like a chaos spawn within a few seconds (as though you had taken along a v1.7 dual dagger shade + perfect shot huntsman along with you) <— difficulty related? Yes. Level of impact? Directly Calculable (dont you DARE ask lol). Your weight may be ‘hardly at all’
Anything else I list may also be ‘hardly at all’
You have a PoV. We all do. You get to decide whats important with respect to ‘difficulty’. Not me. I only get to decide what is important to ME with respect to difficulty
Wanna know my list with respect to DIFFICULTY? Not stagger-to-damage, as they are DIFFERENT and I explained that last post in detail
Dodge. Those changes? Maaaaan. I was never a dodge dancer, but sheesh, when I need to dodge I need to DODGE! It feels… off. I dont know how, or why, or what specifically to say. Just that its sick and needs to be more reliable
Enemy resistance to stagger. Remember when a cleave would umm… cleave? Well not so much anymore. Attacks that would stagger or even KILL the enemy in ONE hit now suddenly are brushed off which changes the meta completely. At one point when stagger resistance was REALLY overtuned to 2.75 on legend, the meta almost HAD to be a shield. You had no cleave, you had nothing but your stamina bar to PUSH to stagger. And even then, some staggers seem to be SHORTER in DURATION as well! I dont understand WHY thats a thing… but it is
Beastmen. I dont own the expansion, so thank god when I host my friends dont get them as hordes in quickplay unless that damn Dark Omens comes up. Because if we DO, we have to deal with a spearboy with the REACH of a GOD, the stagger resistance whos who of stagger resistance, and that COOL LOOKING, but NASTY as HELL Minotaur (pronounced MIN OH TOUR - not MINE OH TOUR lol sorry couldnt resist)
^ ALL difficulty related… and I could easily go on… but my fingers ill hurt lol
See any stagger-to-damage in there? See any times where I complain about heart pounding feeling you get after just clearing a horde, only to find out that you have a CHAOS SPAWN here to what? Calm you DOWN? I could go AFK during those moments. Think thats stagger-to-damage related?
1 Like
lol
I loved the ending. Made me laugh 
I specifically stated I wanted to understand people’s issues with the stagger system. I already agreed the other things were more difficult. You only stated 2 issues with stagger, breakpoints and bosses.
You say breakpoints are gone, why? Just because we don’t know what the breakpoints are anymore doesn’t mean that we can’t achieve them. I still get tons of breakpoints with my BH. Speaking of which, HURRY UP NUMBER CRUNCHERS! lol
As for bosses, I was never too concerned with being able to insta kill them (and do you really want BOSSES to be so insignificant?). Even so, I have still been pretty much insta killing bosses when I play as shade.
I have stated very clearly how I feel about 2.0, how FS has not ‘listened’ during beta, and how I feel about this SILLY stagger-to-damage model currently ruining our game experience. I also have said many times that I hope people post their view on the current state of the game so FS can see the fruits of their labour
Time for you guys to tell ME
You cant say I avoided your questions. I answered them, and in detail - all loud n opinionated n stuff! lol
The rest will have to be left up to the number crunchers 
While you’re right on the rest, and much as I can go on for days about talents/tiers that aren’t in a good place atm, I much prefer the new talents to the old ones - the old ones were bland as bland can be and yet even with that level of blandness they weren’t well balanced.
I’m not sure where the sudden fondness of the old talents comes from. Sure, we lost some good ones, but they were usually the only good one in a given tier (or good two in a tier if you were lucky)
Or has everyone forgotten talents like +1 stamina shield (there was a lot of this), enemies that grab or pounce the player take double damage, reduced stun duration, reduced damage taken below 50% health (while everyone takes 2 grims), reviving party members grants them 50% damage reduction for 10s, increased movement speed when last hero standing…?
Don’t get me wrong, there are a bunch that aren’t practical, aren’t balanced or don’t suit their career now, but there’re a lot more tiers now where you at least have two viable choices, which is an improvement over before.
2 Likes
Well, I hate to agree… lol cuz I HATE what 2.0 did to the game experience… but I think you are right
There are some very nice talent choices that I like since 2.0
Now now now, dont you think for ONE second that includes that HORRIFIC tier with that stagger crap in it! That should be completely removed as a thing at ALL and those stagger changes completely reverted to 1.7 - which would FIX a lot of the issues people are having… BUT…
Again… I think you are right… one that comes to mind… I even think is FUN!
Fun in 2.0!? Ikr lol
The BH one where you can select that talent that gives you a 1% stacking damage resistance buff that goes up to a maximum of 30% for every elite killed. Stays to the end of the mission
^ What a NEAT little choice! Especially on such a wussbag who needs it lol
See the kinds of things they could have done? Instead, they added stagger-to-damage
sigh
I’ve said this before. But I would love to get a experimental beta like we had during the internal test for WoM. Give us an opt in Beta that we punch the code into and download a separate test version.
Keep the increased hordes along with elites and zerkers in them. Keep the harder map events, keep the specials spawning every 5 seconds on Cata. But roll back stagger system, damage and HP changes. Let us test the game with pre WoM values. Sure some talents would still have to be tweaked, but I think it’d be a step in the right direction.
I’m not sure how feasible this is… they’re super busy right now. But I think it would help a lot. And I bet the majority of the community would appreciate being able to test this out and make a decision from there.
7 Likes
AWESOME idea
I can NOT see how that could have ANY negative impact in ANY way. ALL positive. But just posting it is step one, step two is to try to pitch it
Thanks @SmokerT69 for the input. Great idea!
EDIT: Gonna check in on this tomorrow
1 Like
Nah, I don’t think they will, because of the DLC. I’m sure from a code standpoint it’s heavily woven into the update. They couldn’t just revert the version, they’d have to do a ton of work and probably end up with more bugs from haste. The backlash would probably get to a legal level if they started taking out stuff people paid for.
The best way forward is, unfortunately, forward. Probably the next best thing to a full rollback would be working to remove some of the actually-bad/pointless features (. . . like, yes, stagger damage mechanic*).
Since I doubt that’ll happen, it’ll probably just be a very long-term effort of balancing. Weaves will probably be abandoned, as they should. They will never be long-term supported, because they’re just DLC content. If they’d added them in the patch, I could see more investment occurring. Without a diametric shift, no one will even want to play them, and probably we’ll see later seasons get delayed so they can put all focus on the next DLC (which I suspect might be aimed at appeasing as much of the fanbase as possible, with a heavy focus on maps).
*Yes, it’s true that it’s been nerfed to the point that it doesn’t mess up the game nearly as much. But it still has its downsides, like being unintuitive (despite how intuitive the base concept is). It would simplify things, I think, to just tear it out (and adjust health). From a gameplay standpoint, we’d just find that enemies would have breakpoints again, be in general more predictable in terms of time to kill, and we might get some pretty decent balance if 2H Hammer/Shields keep their current buffs.
1 Like
Very good players were running it solo. Normal way, killing stuff, with kinda any weapon on nearly any class.
How is this not an answer ? If 1 very good player can take garbage class slap hard modes on the Legend and still do it solo… than man, that is sure too easy.
I have 53 true solo runs uploaded, including nonsense like Footknight w/ Darkness & NO-UI … when breakpoints were broken and I couldn’t even one shot hookrats.
Of course very good players could carry easily Legend runs.
1 Like