Many Class Tweaks and Changes

Hello! I have come on here (besides to post my rant about Trappers) to go about posting a litany of improvements and thoughts that I had pertaining to the game. As an individual who’s put about 500 hours into the current state of the game, and tends to run around on Auric and Damnation, I hope my thoughts are at least something worth looking at. But without further ado.


Psyker feels the most ‘underwhelming’ to me atm when it comes to the classes. They can be strong, but they tend to fall into the area of utility class and that’s about it. You’re either knocking things over with a Trauma staff, stunning things with fire or electricity, or generally just doing a lot of ok AOE to everything on the battlefield so your team can do clean up. I don’t think that’s a bad spot to be for the Psyker, but I do feel there are a couple of things that could improve their quality of life immensely, or just generally make them feel more effective.

  • Psyker is currently actually the LEAST TINKERABLE class this, the Psyker tree is so stiffing to build variety it’s insane, and I feel is a large proponent to why they feel underpowered. You can never just, go for what you want, you have to compromise, and it feels terrible compared to the other classes.
  • Wildfire does not need two restrictions for it’s spread, either cap the spread to the amount the target has when they died, OR cap it to only up to 4 stacks on death. It having both makes the thing completely worthless as anything other than a ‘ohh look the whole wave is blue’ skill point usage, but will literally never do anything to actually help unless you’re on the blackout condition on Auric.
  • Warp Siphon needs…just something. It’s such a ‘everything you do is wrong’ keystone. Like, it’s super potent, but ‘consume all stacks to reduce main ability cooldown’ just feels terrible. You either build into having warp stacks and NEVER use your combat ability because as soon as you do you drop your effectiveness by such a considerable margin you just can’t function for a good bit of time, or you just basically ignore the keystone all together and just use it as some free cooldown on said combat ability. You either feel like you are wasting points by putting pips into it to get to Psychic Vampire so you can actually have stack gain, or actively ignoring one of your most potent abilities so those pips aren’t wasted. I just feel it needs to either stack less but provide ALL the benefits based on stacks (including the cooldown reduction without the consumption), or just remove the cooldown from it and it so one never has to worry about dropping their stacks without just not having enemies to kill. Or some other change to make it not so diametrically opposed with itself.
  • Brainburst, it feels like it can never keep up with what it’s niche is supposed to accomplish, and on Damnation+ it doesn’t even kill mutants in 1 shot so it REALLY can’t do what it’s supposed to do. I feel splitting it into a proper two effect ability like the others seems important. For example, the left click is a ‘quick pop’ style ability that takes whatever it is in front of you and does a specials worth of damage to it after like a half second charge, where as the charge effect on right click takes the current duration but will 1 shot a Mutant/Reaper and do HEAVY damage if not just one shot a Crusher. That feels appropriate to me. That, or keeping it as is but making the left click single target, where as the right click spends time marking enemies at the cost of further peril expenditure, allowing you to say, 1 shot a whole special line (minus the ones killed along the way of the charge) but like completely tap yourself out by doing so. Either or feels like a good evolution of the ability to me that lets it get back in it’s niche without feeling ‘broken’.
  • Make Disrupt Destiny's Charges Degrade like Warp Charges! and this, this too I beg.

Those are largely all my main feedback points for Psyker, they are the ones that I feel need the most help. When it comes to the other classes though, I do have a few tweeks, but not to nearly as much of a degree.


Ogryn honestly feels pretty good to me in most situations, especially once you get the right weaponry to work with. Just got a few pointers below.

  • Make it so I can run Big Friendly Rock and Soften them up, I do quite enough impact I want to make me and my team do more damage but I also want Rock let me do both please big man sadddd!
  • This is largely just due to my hatred of Trappers and their especially lack of counter play on Ogryns, but some sort of pip or upgrade that lets you break out of nets and shove dogs off? Something like ‘on active ability, break out of incapacitated state’ or something. Just feels bad being a big man and then a tiny trap that hardly even fits you just, makes you incapable of hitting things…and dogs/mutants aren’t even the size of your model yet I can’t just bat them away after they get a few bites/hits in? just feels bad.

That’s about it for the big man, now on to,


Literally I think this is as close to perfect as a class can be, after the reworked skill tree they just feel fantastic and so varied in what they can do. My literal only point to make is:

  • Let Executioner’s Stance Refresh toughness. It’s a small thing, but heck it makes that skill feel that much worse when I activate it to try and ‘go ham’ on some specials and I just fall over and go ‘ohh yeah, I still had only 10 toughness, woops’. Both other abilities have added effects on top of a toughness refresh, I don’t understand why Executioner’s Stance can’t have it too. (that, or if on the backside ‘Relentless’ just constantly re-procs the ability again and that’s why it can’t do this, just give use like 10% toughness on kill or something with that perk selected. Just gimmie something man).

Other than that honestly nit pick Vets are golden to me, and that just leaves,


Who I feel are honestly fine and feel largely ok, most of their issues come from their weapon choice (the Hammer just being so unhelpful compared to the evisorator, and knife zealots not having any wave clear weapon on and wondering why they get overwhelmed and die). If I could ask for anything though.

  • make it so the grenades aren’t a part of trees/located at the end of long lines of pips. I’d like to throw knives as a martydom zealot but that’s literally impossible unless you just really want to make the build bad and not have bleed for the emperor. And same goes for wanting some stuff in the knife tree but maybe wanting to cleanse the corruption in flame? Would be nice!
  • Along a similar vein, can I have a line of pips before the auras too? I mean, it’s really hard not to pick Benediction already, but it becomes literally impossible when I have to choose not only between Benediction and everything else, but ALSO Holy Revenant + Duelist and everything else. Like why would you EVER pick anything in the other trees over that? Like shield of contempt and thy wrath be swift are cool but like come on!
  • The comments have shown me the light about Blazing Piety and pairing it with a Shred Heavy Eviscerator and dashing at large waves of enemies for instant refunds on said dashes. I don’t think it’s THAT terrible anymore, but I still think baking the ‘50% toughness refresh’ on activation into the ability as just ‘crit kills give bonus toughness’ or whatever and just kinda removing the left side seems like a good idea. You should just NEVER take the left side like EVER and it’s crazy how much you shouldn’t.

And there you go, a massive post with very many changes. Those are basically all I can think of after my play time so far about specific improvements. I’ll leave weapons alone since the balance there is pretty decent, at least for the class specific ones which are clearly meant to be the best (besides the hammer already mentioned above). Hope any of this was an interesting read for those that did so!

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I just want to add that you should try a Blazing Piety, Wrath of the Faithful, Eviscerator with Shred and Perfect Strike, and Ability cooldown on crit talent build for Zealot. I don’t think Blazing Piety is really useless in such a scenario, but it does seem to need a bit more “tweaking” to feel worth it.

The toughness regen modifier of Blazing Piety should trigger WAY more often though, as it only happens when Fury is triggered and never again if Fury is kept refreshed: it could happen on every refresh but only give like 5% toughness. The modifiers that add Crit Chance and Fury buildup per crit are vastly superior to the other two as it currently stands

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Yeah, I feel that is the main way to get that Keystone to work. I just tend to run more ‘quality’ stuff with things like Savage Sweep so I can actually deal with waves on my Zealot (as lord knows so many don’t XD) so I tend not to have the main ‘crit boosting’ stuff that’s more ‘raw’ like that. And then you just look at Bloothirsty that just guarantees the crit and you’re like ‘why bother with a ‘chance’ when I can just have it all?’

It is a solid thought to bring up though, and do appreciate it. (I’m sure it works better on other weapons that don’t have bloodthirsty but do have Shred too).

Give the other side to the critmaxer option in blazing piety a passive regen of toughness, instead of a 50% at 1 time per horde which you cannot control.


You should not be getting overwhelmed as a knife zealot and if you are then I would work on your dodging and positioning.

One of the biggest pros to using a knife is how fast and how long the dodges are. If I am playing dagger zealot then I am literally always dodging and moving around. There is no reason you should be getting tied down like that because, like you said, you don’t have horde clear .

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That comment was more aimed at the countless upon countless knife zealots I see getting overwhelmed. I don’t really use it.

I assume that is the play/why people use it, but I just usually see them dancing around the wave killing 1-2 of the 50+ poxwalkers currently attempting to eat them until their foot gets caught on a rock or something and suddenly they are down and I need to go lawn mower my way through to save them. while thinking in the back of my head ‘if you had wave clear this wouldn’t be a problem’ xD.

I’m sure there are many knife zealots that run around being very useful with there dancing, I mean it’s popular enough it must do something right, they just aren’t as often in my games as the ones above XD.


Yea for sure!

I prefer devil sword or my evis, but the dagger was fun just to get rid of all the elites/specials.

Also, blazing piety is one of my most favorite keystones in the entire game. It’s up 100% of the time once you get it up. The passive the takes off seconds every time your crit is straight broken, as is those 2 passives on the top right. I’m basically at 80%+ chance to crit and I’m god like

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Absolutely, at the end of the day I’m not ‘mad’ that they have a knife

It’s that I don’t see a flamethrower/braced autogun or the like being pulled out when the horde spawns that makes me start to question XD

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Yeaaa I wouldn’t use either one of those with the dagger just because you are going to suck at medium long and long range fights. It’s my personal preference, but I run every build to have horde clear and long range clear. You are at a massive disadvantage if you can’t take out medium-long range dudes ever imo

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That’s what I use daggers for mostly, when equipped with such. You do suffer with ubber long ranges, but that’s what the invis run up is for. Can usually even hit a sniper from a decent distance with a bit of practice with those.

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If anything i agree with psyker is that the build variety is kinda meh compared to other classes and that warp siphon should probably just be an augmenting passive for empyrean empowerment. So on base keystone you get stacks that give you damage, and then if you really want that CDR you can spec into it.

This however:

I feel like i’m almost some kind of outlier for primarily using brainburst. Lightning just feels boring to use even tough it can be giga stupid and the way assail was nerfed kinda just did it for me. I also don’t particularly care for mind in motion if i want to path towards left side so its a dead talent for me so other reason to hate assail.

Using short range staff like trauma and having the ability to 1 shot reapers/mutants on the opposite side of the map just sounds so hilariously absurd to me considering you can safely channel this ability in 90% of cases you would want to use this.
With empowered psionics / kinetic resonance its not even that long of an cast time.
If this ability were to gain anymore damage, it should also get an charge system. Sure let it 1 shot most things but make dam sure its not spammable.

This talent actually has some donkey synergy with certain blessings. Not to mention invocation of death with good crit rate weapon/shred can kill chorus of spiritual fortitudes cooldown to practically non existent value.
If there is anything noticeably wrong with this one its the left side augments that bring little value.

Yeah, I think generally at the end of the day this comes down to really just the first point making the rest of the points a ‘problem’. I’m an individual that really enjoys/feels the Psyker tends to need the dodge distance increase due to just how incredibly squishy they are, but in order to get that that requires 1 singular line burning a pip on ‘toughness replenishment’ to get there. So when Assail (most of the time) can just ‘hold right click throw kill sniper’ and that’s usually the only thing I really need to have ‘long range’ for with the staves, it just makes me look at brain burst and go ‘so what do you do?’ ‘well, in 99% of situations in Auric/High intensity Damnation, a whole lot of jack considering I can’t aim at anything if there’s even one enemy in front of you and in order to charge me you’re going to have to beg the emperor for some space that will never come’.

I’ve found it very nice specifically with a Trauma staff to make up for literally all of it’s weaknesses, and to make being on that side of the tree not feel so bad since it doesn’t rely on crit that much. But otherwise? Voidstrike staff just does it’s job, and Surge staff prefers assail to get the crit bonuses, and the fire staff…it can be useful with the fire staff but you just spam fire for CC there and hope you never really have to use it.

Just feel needing both an upgrade on the blitz AND empowered Psionic active at once to make the thing feel like it’s usable in the snap casty way that’s needed for high end content seems just…not great, to me at least. It just feels like it fails at all it’s niches, it kills lines of specials slower than Assail/any other class in the game just inherently, it can’t kill mutants, and it finds itself at a lose when trying to kill the far off sniper unless it’s literally the only thing that exists (the sniper I mean).

But I’m glad you seem to see something I don’t in it xD.

As for Blazing Piety, I do feel I’m probably just spoiled by Bloothirsty, but I do agree the fact the left side of it just isn’t an upgrade path probably doesn’t help matters either. The whole thing just reads to me ‘25% crit chance after a bunch of things die and you get a bunch of crits’, which to me is just like ‘well in order to get that I should already be criting a lot which by then why am I not just Bloodthirsty 100% crit all the time off 1 kill’? But, obiviously that only exists on 1 set of weapons, so I can see other weapons perhaps making it seems like a quality keystone. I just also look at Vet’s and their ‘10% crit chance and 25% crit damage’ on a single pip and I go like ‘bru why so many hoops for such little active effectiveness’.

I might just need something with shred only and a fast attack speed to see the light though.

I have an evis with shred and a headhunter autogun with 2 crit blessings and I promise you it is nuts. You build up to crit change between 80-100% chance and stay there. If I hit 10 people, that’s 15 seconds off my cooldown. It’s my favorite build for a zealot. The only build I’ve found stronger actually as my Ogryn so far

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I really think Psyker mostly just needs more staff options. A beam staff equivalent that does ramping single target damage as you hold it on something could provide a very nice boss option. As I’ve said in the brain burst thread BB/BR just needs sightly better break points and lacerations back and I’d be excited to use it again.

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Don’t forget to put a space after the hyphen

  • to create a bullet point
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I was wondering how people did that, thanks!

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Psyker is fine. BB is fine. Maybe a 10% cast speed boost, and a 10% damage boost would be ok.

On my staff build I don’t find the other blitzes better.

Ogryn is fine. BFR locking out Soften Them Up is neither here nor there.

Ogrynheimer 'nade is definitely a better team choice already so allowing BFR the ability to use it probably wouldn’t hurt.

Vet needs MF to not suck and be literal garbage outside of autoguns. They’re also overly reliant on having a strong gun to abuse of they actually want to play as a ranged build. They’re not like zealot; a class capable of making meh melee into god tier.

Agree on Exe stance. It needs toughness, and lower point tax. Make refresh baseline.

Zealot is the strongest class in the game. Dagger has amazing horde clear don’t know what you’re talking about there. They need nothing.

They’re the best, and they can stay there. Just don’t buff them.


It has OK horde clear and bad horde control, you can make way more space for your team with other options. That said it definitely shouldn’t be buffed, its other strengths compensate and then some.

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On zealot its fantastic. Not on par with some of the 2h, but MK VI has crazy good horde clear, and enough control to not really even need to dodge.

On veteran I’d say its “ok” because you don’t have access to 30-50% attack speed at all times, but definitely have good reasons for taking on any class that its available on.

Oh fair I haven’t tried the Mk VI on Zealot yet. I still think on the scale of horde clear you can get on Zealot weapons it’d be mediocre at best but we both agree it shouldn’t be buffed either way so :person_shrugging:

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