Fatshark, give us a simple YES or NO

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

For now, I only see critics of Fatshark. And nothing proposed. Nothing pushed to say “here what we want”.

It seems trivial to infer this, even using your definition of “cheat”.
Don’t do what a human can’t do.

See through walls? Human can’t do this.
360 pinpoint accurate radar? Human can’t.
Fire at a perfect charge % every shot? Can’t.
Knowing which mobs through artificial means are etc.
Perfectly solve puzzles etc.
No tacking on of line-crossing functionality onto an “accessibility” mod to circumvent said line.

We all see the line; we all know where it is without resorting to cheap theatrics to try and muddy the waters.

Making the absurd false claim that it’s either the current situation or EAC+Sanctioned serves no purpose other than to give cover.

FS could have said, and still can say “don’t cross the line into what humans can’t do”.

The community CAN self-police itself better, it could have from the beginning, it chose not to and even when it tries on Nexus it’s denied sometimes.

@Ralendil

See I asked the community what they want…

This is hardly a complete picture, and you well know it, language barriers aside, even the way you pprhased this implies “proof”.

Go see the user comments on SpideySense for instance, and also how tagging it on Nexus is disabled, what’s that tell you?

Here’s 3rd comment from top on Spidey, which again cannot be tagged.

Fist: I LOVE this mod, and I really do appreciate how amazing it is incorporated into the game. The mod author really knows what he’s doing, and should definitely be recognized for it.

Second: After playing quite a few hours with this mod… It’s 100% cheating. Yes, I will keep using it for as long as Fatshark doesn’t ban it, but it is. After thinking about this for a while, my reasoning is the following: I would MUCH, MUCH rather turn the sound off and have this mod on, than have the sound on without this mod. What this means is that the feedback and information this mod provides is FAR superior, clear, and informative than the sound cues of the game.

YES, this will help those impaired, but DEFINITELY NOT to a level that about equals (or even remotely close!) someone that hears fine, without this mod. I will actually say this: if I were to choose between a team-member that is deaf and has this mod, I would much prefer him to cover my butt than a person with standard hearing without this mod.

I read some messages here, and was a little bit disappointed that there was not much useful and productive discussions. I deeply understand that this is a very important, and sensitive issue. I definitely feel like the devs should work harder to have more accessibility options. I dont think this is quite it. It’s pretty close! I almost feel like a modification as simple as making the ‘spider sense’ indicator way wider, so you cant pinpoint as well where the source of noise is coming from, would help in closening the gap between those impaired with mod versus those without.

[Ralendil]

You forgot to propose something (asking community to police itself has not worked until now, so it won’t work in future).
But I have read that you would want that fatshark change the mod policy. However, several here want a lot more than that…

Did you try spidey sense in auric maelstrom? I tried this mod (thank you for your positions, that made me want to try it) for 1 week (maybe 2).
Yesterday I was in an auric maelstrom mission and I was like: “whoa, such a christmas tree all these colors”. You know what? I did not even paid attention in the entire game of this.
This is like perspective. Players think that it will give you super powers. In fact, I use it at lower difficulties (and rarely tbh) to take a good time, cause you loose by a lot the efficiently. I could never use it in a maelstrom mission (or then I would have improved by a lot my skills).
How many times I have read that Perspective was giving you an unfair advantage? too many times…

Also, don’t tell me that you should not be able to kill elite/special through walls. You can do it with exec stance. The problem is, again, the PG that can shoot through walls.
About the mod that permit you to chain first shots… you can do it manually. It won’t be as effective as with the mod, but still you can do it. Will it be a game changer if you use it? Really I cannot think it can be a game changer. Anyways, no point to use it with most OP weapons of the game, and the weapons that can benefit from this mod are a lot weaker than OP ones.

@gpkgpk

FS could have said, and still can say “don’t cross the line into what humans can’t do”.

You’re not happy with Fatshark stance… understandable. I could live without such mods (that I don’t use except now for spidey sense to see what it could provide as advantage).

But, tbh, they don’t give you a big advantage. The ones that are crossing the lines, and really crossing it, are removed from nexus really fast.

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

You forgot to propose something (asking community to police itself has not worked until now, so it won’t work in future).

This is a nonsensical argument, just like IRL, a community can re-adjust and change its mind as FS can and provide guidance. The factors that lead to a decision can change over time as well as observations of said factors and their impact over time. You can go back and re-examine your stance on a subject as circumstances change.

@Ralendil

Did you try spidey sense in auric maelstrom? I tried this mod (thank you for your positions, that made me want to try it) for 1 week (maybe 2).
Yesterday I was in an auric maelstrom mission and I was like: “whoa, such a christmas tree all these colors”. You know what? I did not even paid attention in the entire game of this.

It’s highly customizable, by default; others have already addressed this.

@Ralendil

Also, don’t tell me that you should not be able to kill elite/special through walls. You can do it with exec stance. The problem is, again, the PG that can shoot through walls.

Yes, as part of a combat ability for 1 archetype, that FS added, a very meh ability I might add. A zealot can’t do this, an ogryn can’t. Again, people have already deconstructed this argument, I gave you a chance to ponder on the differences.

@Ralendil

The ones that are crossing the lines, and really crossing it, are removed from nexus really fast.

Demonstrably false, and feedback is often denied on Nexus. Go see how many mods that are still up there cross the line, the real line that we all know exists, not the dishonest one some have chosen to manifest into existence like Orks.

[Ralendil]

@gpkgpk

This is a nonsensical argument, just like IRL, a community can re-adjust and change its mind as FS can and provide guidance. The factors that lead to a decision can change over time as well as observations of said factors and their impact over time. You can go back and re-examine your stance on a subject as circumstances change.

Totally true. And so, you expect that the community will change?

@gpkgpk

It’s highly customizable, by default; others have already addressed this.

I did… but mutants waves, dogs waves, trappers, flamers, bombers… Or you limit it to one or two enemies, or you get a christmas tree. At least in auric maelstrom.

Did you try it in maelstrom? try it, you will see if you have time to check spidey sense indicators. The time I could, it was in a airlock between 2 parts of the mission.
Sure, in auric maelstrom you have not the time to breath…

@gpkgpk

Yes, as part of a combat ability for 1 archetype,

Then it is possible. And the problem is one weapon that can shoot through walls.

@gpkgpk

Demonstrably false, and feedback is often denied on Nexus. Go see how many mods that are still up there cross the line

That cross YOUR line. It doesn’t cross the line drawn by Fatshark.

[Badwin]

@gpkgpk

FS could have said, and still can say “don’t cross the line into what humans can’t do”.

Sorry, hi, it’s me. I just can’t with this argument.

“What humans can’t do" without mods is: remove visual clutter in the game, play the game in 3rd person, see the ammo count of their teammates, block while chatting, change the sights on their weapons, Guarantee Weapon Swaps, duck the game audio when someone talks, toggle on quell instead of having to hold down a button, choose what they switch to after using a blitz, etc…and these are all just in-game mods.

I realize out of those, you (specifically) probably have a problem with at least one of those. I have a problem with none of them. The line isn’t so cut and dry as you claim. The point at which a mod crosses the line for me is when it’s hurting my experience. And I’ve only had that on super rare occasions when people abuse the voice mods to the point of annoyance. I think those individuals are annoying, but it doesn’t rise to the level of a report imo, so I just let it go.

I certainly don’t ask the mod’s creator to fix my issue because that’s not a realistic solution to being annoyed for like 3 out of hundreds of matches. I don’t expect SeventeenDucks to spend his days thinking up (completely circumventable) mechanisms to prevent these things by default in For The Emperor. And I certainly don’t want him to remove the “things a human can’t do” like say “yes” and “no” because I actually use that to communicate with my team.

And even if he did…Vacuum Capsule is out there, guys, IN THE WILD. It’s not on the modding discord, because the modding community suppresses the spread of it, and the wall hack mod and the shirtless mod. But it’s out there…shared on dark and dank discords…

And that’s kinda the rub: modding is live. FS can release some new vague rule like that one you propose, and that might spur more of these flaccid arguments, but it’s not actually going to solve your problem. Because your problem is that people can gain a (small imo) advantage over their default level of play.

FS has exactly 2 courses of action to gain actual control over mods: add a sanctioning system again – which again, as someone who had sanctioned mods, was not an effective solution for anyone – and/or add anti-cheat.

If they don’t do one/both of those things, your very next match could have some semi-competent coder who has created their own personal cheaty mod that makes them a marginally better teammate…and you and FS would never even know it. And then is your problem even fixed?

[Jacek]

@Jonboy

I genuinely wasn’t actually all that invested until I realised that the developers officially didn’t seem to care that people could cheat. I am astounded by that. I am hugely disappointed by that.

---

I agree with everything you mentioned, and I understand that this is a bit of a detour, but I am honestly sick of game studios always passing on answers to their own design mistakes to modders instead of correcting it themselves or at least formally implementing popular QoL mods.

Outside of the [Perspectives] mod (which IMO should be a baseline optional setting), I have other mods that add fundamental functionality to the game, such as [NumericUI], [Hub Hotkeys], [TrueLevel] (yes prestige level should be baseline IMO], [StimColor] (don’tremember the exact name of that mod), [DynamicCrosshair], [CrosshairRemap], among many other QoL mods like the one that removes the critical health and last wound screen effects.

Features that should be baseline and official, but “why fix them when modders can do it for us for free?”

[gpkgpk]

@Ralendil

That cross YOUR line. It doesn’t cross the line drawn by Fatshark.

What line? The bar is so low that it’s almost meaningless, and remember Lopus basically saying they wash their hands of it? Your “appeal to authority” argument that you keep repeating doesn’t apply.
Fatshark: PVE who cares AND up to community.
you: See ? FS!

Conditions changes, new mods are introduced and or become ubiquitous, the community can re-examine and re-adjust, nothing is set in stone.
Hel, even FS has reversed course a year later on certain things.

To keep presenting poison-pills, slippery-slopes and other scare tactics as the only options is just a rhetorical tool politicians use to steer the conversation away from things they clearly don’t want do discuss.

@Ralendil

Then it is possible. And the problem is one weapon that can shoot through walls.

I can’t even…

@Ralendil

Did you try it in maelstrom? try it, you will see if you have time to check spidey sense indicators.

That honestly sounds like a you problem, there are already many videos demonstrating exactly how useful it as a radar on aurics and maels, and ~always used with a couple of other repeat offenders.

That’s the like the other dude saying: “smite isn’t broken, if it’s broken why don’t I win every game with it?”

@Ralendil

Totally true. And so, you expect that the community will change?

What does it matter? Because the conversation makes you uncomfortable?

Irrelevant, if the “self-appointed judge, jury and executioners.” @Jonboy rightfully put it, decides to do nothing then so be it. Pointing out glaring inadequacies in any system is healthy, and the first step to possibly improving things.

[Harridas]

Just want to add that typical and more blatant forms of cheating like changing damage, spawns, noclip and such are not possible in multiplayer thanks to the game’s dedicated servers having final authority over all player actions and control besides the camera. (It SUCKS)

So saying this

@gpkgpk

The bar is so low that it’s almost meaningless

Sounds grossly exaggerated to me.

[Eviltreerat]

Or the idiots can just get off their rear and say “yes its a bug” or “no its intended.” Boom. Situation resolved. But that would mean admitting to either A) screwing up and yet another huge “WTH” mistake through or B) being utterly incapable of communicating even basic functions not only to the players but among themselves as well. And ObeseTuna never admits to screwing up.

What I find funny is how so many “big names” here love to cherry pick. If they use a particular mod its “just a QoL improvement” but if they don’t then its “its a a cheat”. Almost as if they are fine with cheats as long as its only their little clique who can use them…

[Badwin]

@Eviltreerat

And ObeseTuna never admits to screwing up.

From the dev quote:

As for the intended behavior of this the analysis that we went back and forth on it and didn’t clean up properly is probably a fair one
I’ll report this straight to the source of the weird behavior and try to get it sorted.

EDIT: Also I don’t know if you’re referring to me in your suggestion that some people are defending specific mods because they use them. But, just in case, here’s my mod list:

BetterMelk
commodores_vestures_improved
FilterSacrifice
ForTheEmperor
GoToMastery
Hardtide
how_did_I_get_that
hub_hotkey_menus
ItemSorting
–loadout_config
LoadoutNames
ManyMoreTry
MarkPreview
more_characters_and_loadouts
Mourningstar_dialogue_improved
name_it
NumericUI
PenancesForTheMission
PrivateCharMap
psych_ward
quick_chat
QuickLookCard
Ration Pack
ReorderChars
scoreboard
ovenproof_scoreboard_plugin
scoreboard_enhanced_defense_plugin
show_crit_chance
ShowEquippedInLobby
ShowMeRealWeaponStats
smaller_talent_tree
SoloPlay
sorted_mission_grid
StimmsPickupIcon
TagKeys
TalentRefundBelow
true_level
view_locked_weapon_cosmetics
view_premium_character_cosmetics
who_are_you
animation_events

I don’t personally consider any of these even nearing “cheats,” but that is in the eye of the beholder.

[gpkgpk]

Lists QoL mods that ~nobody has issues with or considers cheats

“See !? no cheats.” Checkmate, atheists!

[Badwin]

I was responding to the claim that some users in this thread are defending specific mods because they use them. I’m defending all mods because I think people should play how they want within the confines of what is possible thru mods and FS’s modding policy.

Also, yes, for some people seeing hidden information – via mods like Show Crit Chance, Numeric UI, and Ration Pack – is crossing their personal line.

[gpkgpk]

@Badwin

I was responding to the claim that some users in this thread are defending specific mods because they use them.

No need to clarify, that was very clear, including the additional subtext of the last sentence which is what was replied to. (only 1 user just said this afaik, and not necessarily targeted at you)

@Badwin

I’m defending all mods because I think people should play how they want within the confines of what is possible thru mods and FS’s modding policy.

FS’s modding policy: PVE who give a crap, you guys figure it out (+don’t blatantly troll others with sounds etc.).

Appealing to an authority who has purposely chosen to ~not be authoritative.

@Badwin

Also, yes, for some people seeing hidden information – via mods like Show Crit Chance, Numeric UI, and Ration Pack – is crossing their personal line.

Well yeah, there’s also some that object to any mods whatsoever, these 2 are an extreme minority by all accounts.

There are obvious clearer, more objective lines past QoL further up the scale that many more have issues with, and some willfully pretend do not exist, and others+them try to make false equivalences with.

[Badwin]

@gpkgpk

There are obvious clearer, more objective lines

No there aren’t. These lines are subjective, and we are already working at the extremes of what can be done with mods. Deal with it. Create a (tiny) community of like-minded people and personally vet their mod list. Play with friends.

[gpkgpk]

@Badwin

No there aren’t.

Yes there are.

@Badwin

These lines are subjective,

Far, farless than you make out.

@Badwin

and we are already working at the extremes of what can be done with mods.

Uh…K?

@Badwin

Deal with it. Create a (tiny) community of like-minded people and personally vet their mod list.

Uno reversed, right back at ya.

@Badwin

Play with friends.

Usually do, irrelevant.
“If you don’t like cheaters don’t play in pugs”, brilliant!

[Harridas]

@gpkgpk

@Badwin

No there aren’t.

Yes there are.

Nuh uh

[Badwin]

Agreed.

With mods in Darktide, you can do little beyond gaining hidden information, changing some minor things like visuals and weapon sights or adding a flashlight to your gun, and (apparently, although I haven’t seen evidence of this) shoot a gun like some kind of robot in a way that a simple macro can’t.

If it were possible for a modder to come into my game, throwing infinite grenades and blowing everything up or shooting forever with infinite ammo or just deleting every enemy or teleporting me under the map like I’m in a damn GTA lobby, I’d be inclined to agree that there’d be a clear, objective line in the sand…because those mods would “directly affect unmodded players’ experience of the game and/or is used to grief other players”.

[PSI2007]

People saying NO! in movies

[Pirx]

I still don’t get it why some purists are so upset about other players getting “hidden information” via mods. Do they have a problem with modders potentially having a higher score? Or how would they even know that without a scoreboard mod?

[NihilistZealot]

honestly… none of this information should be “hidden” at all (what benefit does that provide the game OR players?). The tooltips we’re given in vanilla tide are borderline useless and I have no idea what FatShark chooses to obscure this information from players by default as it just breeds an environment where people look less to the official source for information and instead resort to datamined information to get a more complete picture/understanding.