How about you address my points instead of other people’s if you’re replying to me?
I never said that V2 was good. I’m saying DT is just as bad if not worse. That “shop” just having a one hour timer made it worse than anything VT2 did.
I mean, yes, but also no? Like DT and VT both had/have meh crafting, DT’s just feels even worse than VT’s does in a lot of ways. Even with the proposed changes, beyond the entire system just sucking (which it does) and being unfun (which it is).
But if we’re comparing it to VT, even if the shop is a 1:1? It doesn’t feel good. It simply doesn’t feel as satisfying or enjoyable to go hit up a shop instead of making your own item, which is partly due to the lack of animation or sound attached, partly we’re just using ordo dockets, partly the fact that it’s ultimately NOT a 1:1 because instead of going just for 300 power (which you’d get in ~1-3 crafts at max level/power) now we’re forced to slot machine SPAM it for who knows how many times to get a 380 that also has the stat layout we want. It’s obtuse.
I don’t know about you but I check the shop 4-5 times a day, and I can count on one hand the times I’ve seen a 380 I’ve wanted. It’s really not 1:1 to VT2 due to the RNG of all the stat bars, tbh.
In all seriousness: That is exactly what I want. If you want me to spend more time in the game, giving me an unlimited amount of toys and freedom is seriously the number one way to do that. Fun = retention, and freely messing around with all weapons and weapon properties on whatever difficulty I want is what’s fun to me. Hoping the RNG upgrade will not make the weapon with good stats that I also got through RNG suddenly bad is the exact opposite of fun to me. And that’s exactly what this itemisation system still is. Right now I can’t even be motivated to start another character because I’ll have to grind against RNG for ages before I even have the gear I wanted to try out in the first place.
This person said it as I feel it:
Let cosmetics be a goal. But let me play what I want. No need to needlessly restrict the fun.
Yes. when it comes to gear progression, I am against any randomness at all in Tide-games. In fact, I am against an item progression in the first place, but I understand other people enjoy such a thing so I can tolerate it. But if it must be, then at least give me a clear correlation between effort and reward. RNG as a reward is stupid as a concept. You might get a near perfect item for free one second after levelling to 30 and it won’t even feel rewarding, or you might grind 'till you’re blue in the face and still only get suboptimal items which is plain horrible. It’s not like you would take a job where the pay is decided by a dice roll, right?! If you want me to upgrade my gear, then give me a fair way of doing that.
And the current system isn’t fair, despite what this person is claiming here:
The whole problem is that we are not. One player might get lucky and get a 98% optimal roll in 5 minutes. Loads of others can grind for months and still be stuck at 80%. And their odds are hardly improved by skill or effort. Mostly luck. That’s stupid. Give me a way of increasing weapon stats, and remove the restrictions so that one can re-roll both perks and blessings. Then you’ll at least have a path towards the exact item you want. And it’ll feel a lot better than RNG-upgrades messing up that weapon with good stats that you were finally lucky enough to get…
My feelings on Darktide are somewhat summoned up here:
I’m disappointed about Darktide because of the design choice and direction. Not because the slot machine is not paying out well, but because it’s a slot machine in the first place. And these item aquisition & modifying changes change nothing about that. My negative review and “time played” are definitely not going to change because of this patch, at least. I was really hoping for a direction change, but I’m afraid we must determine that that won’t happen.
I really can’t get over how FS has completely wasted Darktide’s potential. Considering the steam reviews, I’m not the only one who feels like this. And if this is the best they can do about the crafting system after all the feedback they’ve received so far, I have no hope for the map selection system and other game mechanics either.
I’ve been lobbying for a crafting rework in Vermintide 2 for literal years. After Darktide, however, I’d rather they didn’t touch it anymore at all ever, because I’m convinced they will only make it worse. I’ve written off Darktide for myself, but as long as FS will still make maps and classes and such for Vermintide I’m still happy with FS and will buy their stuff in Vermintide happily. After Darktide the absolute horror scenario is that FS will someday make Vermintide 3. Because judging by Darktide they’ll just kark it up. So please Fatshark. Just keep adding to Vermintide 2. Please don’t make Vermintide 3.
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Honestly, this. RNG is not a fun mechanic to me. There is no world in which it is. I have no interest in seeing it. I do not want it. I do not want a slot machine, I do not want five layers of RNG, I do not want randomized stats. VT’s crafting has never been good, but I am astounded at how much worse DT’s has been. It’s like none of this went through any kind of actual gamer hands and was just c-suite player retention nonsense, but it obviously backfired horribly (as it should have).
I will happily grind for cosmetic things. Hell, I’d happily grind for guaranteed stat unlocks or weapon attachments or something. Anything to get rid of RNG and replace it with something I can actually play the game to earn. Right now I’m playing the SHOP, which isn’t fun or interactive. It’s miserable. Thanks to the app I don’t even log IN for it, because why would I?
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Yes IT IS bad, however this patch removes A LOT of the bad.
For example the shop after the patch is essentially crafting from V2.
you said
V2 didnt have the gall to block perks, V2 just removed both of them randomly.
Which just makes darktide after this crafting patch a sidegrade of bad to Vermintide 2
Ofc resource sharing needs to come too, but thats a differnt topic to this one
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unfortunately although this is a tiny step in the right direction the system itself is rotten at it’s RNG core. This is just a barely noticable slight step up from the atrocious system announced in the previous crafting dev blog and will most likely be a point of no return for the health of the playerbase.
It’s already hard finding games and the upcoming announced crafting won’t bring back players and after it inevitably ends up not giving the players real agency and ways to quickly swap blessings/perks to try out new builds(currently you’re bricking your weapon with the perk/blessing locking) it will just lead to even further playerbase shrinking. You could have just instituted a system like Athanor and all of the problems would have been solved, the only part of the new crafting that kind of sounds good is the storing blessings which is just a worse version of Athanor with added RNG.
Weird for me to say but I think it’s over.
GG
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It’s definitely worse since at least in V2 you can keep rolling, it doesn’t make one of its properties completely unmodifiable meaning you have no choice but to settle for the better of 2 potentially bad choices. And the only way to craft again is to pull the lever on the sorry excuse of a slot machine the item aquisition system is.
Sure some of the announced changes can remediate that a bit, but you’re still pulling the lever multiple times and with a chance to fail, which V2 doesn’t punish you as hard for.
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No it’s not. In Vermintide, if you have a red you can re-roll untill you have the perk combination you wanted, and because the rolls are weighted in favor of stuff you hadn’t rolled already you are guaranteed to get the combination you want in short time. And if you ever want to try something else, you just re-roll again.
In Darktide, if you even get a weapon with good stats (through luck), upgrading it can effectively render it useless if it rolls bad. And that’s the end of it. It feels bad, and it’s completely demoralizing to “lose” the good weapon you finally were lucky enough to get. And that bad feeling gets compounded with the frustration of having to wait untill you’re lucky with a weapon’s stats again, and having to risk it rolling bad while upgrading again.
Darktide’s itemisation system is unfun, and designed by people who have no clue what they’re doing. They just copied principals from other type of games (probably because it brings in revenue in those games), but in Tide games it’ll only completely hamper their own game. I just can not understand how a studio can have such great people designing gameplay, visuals, sound, and writing, and such absolute weapons-grade morons in charge of further game design. I have no clue who they are, but they are seriously a millstone around the neck, and the reason this game is not at all living up to its potential
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Honestly at this point it looks like they’re just trying to kill the game as soon as possible. After enormous amounts of feedback, after dropping to mostly negative on Steam, after postponing stuff over and over to ‘re-work’ it… they end up doubling down on exactly the things that have lost them the vast majority of the player-base and been the cause of all those negative reviews.
The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that they have given up on the game and are trying to kill it as fast as possible, so they can shut down development and servers and instead focus on V3 or whatever atrocity they have planned to develop next.
The only other explanation I could think of would be, as TmanDW said, that they have some truly weapons-grade morons in charge of these systems. Or, you know, people infected with weapons-grade greed that can’t possibly stand to move away from their ‘brilliant’ RNG retention mechanics.
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When the chances of getting a curio you want are 0.00019% (for one curio on one character) that’s just a system that’s designed to put you forever chasing a goal and eternally playing. Definitely not build variety. I agree having goals is obviously a part of progression but especially for casual players, how many hours should it take to get 1 weapon you want? Even a weapon with the right combination of perks and blessings but not necessarily max stats is 0.7%. For one weapon. Vermintide 2 had mostly people chasing cosmetics or very small stat increases to “perks”. The “blessings” in Vermintide 2 were always max value and blessings are big game changers for how you could play. Deflector for example, being able to block bullets. That’s a game play change. Blessings changes should be easy, they should almost be more like feats. Maybe we should make feats RNG too right? Didn’t get the right feat? Delete your character and level up to 30 again and hope you get it.
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This quote is still relevant:
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Yea
- shop which has all the weapon variants available all the time
- Rerolling 50% of perks and 50% of blessing
- Having the blessings unlocked forever from the moment you disassemble a weapon.
Jesus Christ SKY IS falling down! This is literally worse than 99% of gear progression games outside.
Like in Diablo 3 where you can also just do it on a single attribute
Or in D2 where you farm for 0,01% runewords
Or Vermintide 2 where you ALWAYS have to reroll all the properties
Or Outriders (a very high potential ruined game, but gearing wasnt a problem) where you TOO can only swap one of the attributes
Or WoW where you can attempt at a gear piece ONCE per week
Or Vermin 1 where you get ONE weapon per mission with no way other than the keys to get more.
Can gearing be better after this patch, with even more agency?
YES absolutely!
Are you blowing this way the f-ck out of proportion? YES absolutely!
Destroying the game so they can work on V3 meanwhile Sienna 4th career doesnt exist
I mean being salty about DT is one thing (and I AM salty about it)
Being this much deep into pure hatred is another
And do you realize you won’t get that?
And here, they did not fool you. You knew that this game had a weapon system like we have actually.
Also, I would say that you only see the problem… but you said also that you don’t care of the crafting. What forbid you to play the game? You don’t need a perfect weapon to play it…
So, NOTHING forbid you to take a weapon, like you would without any crafting system, and use it in the missions, survive and play the game.
In fact, you focus on numbers and at the same time you say you would not want to see these numbers. So, why wanting to continue to look these numbers you don’t like?
I was going to write up a lengthy post detailing my worthless thoughts that no one is going to care about, especially the developer since they don’t care; but after reading this:
As a Vermintide fan, I feel like you just metaphorically punched me in the gut, thanks. Essentially, what you just told me, is that your design intent is focused exclusively on harmful gameplay models that are motivated by pure unbridled cynicism over player satisfaction and enjoyment. After the noise your CEO generated with that open letter, the delays, as well as the overflowing negative reviews; I sincerely expected you to put your butt into gear and do something for this game, instead you’ve doubled down, yet again, at the detriment of your product. Which is ironic since it contradicts the good you’ve outlined in your log.
Why is it so hard to let us craft the weapons we want with the enchants we want with the freedom to modify said weapon within a reasonable capacity? And don’t tell me it’s because of silly “lore” implications because another Warhammer game does exactly just that:
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This isn’t a gear progression game. It really isn’t. It also has nowhere near the amount of content of those games. This system is also not even slightly comparable to V1 or V2, where you can work towards getting the stuff you want.
Also, and this may shock you, but whataboutism is an incredible bad way of making an argument. “This isn’t that bad, because here are some other bad things” is not an argument.
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Vermintide 1 where you can lock a contact to work towards a specific weapon?
Where when you reroll traits you get the option to keep your old set?
Where when you reroll the values on the traits you can only get the same or better value?
In all the other loot games where you get 10-100x the loot in a similar timeframe? Where you can go to a specific place to target a grind? Where you have a token pity system so you can save up for the specific piece of gear you want?
Darktide as it is is absolutely worse. If it’s being a loot game it’s failing hard at that by barely giving you loot and if it’s not a loot game then it’s deliberately withholding progression from players via RNG.
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In V2 you work towards acquiring materials and rerolling RANDOMLY a weapon 150 times plus to get stats you want.
Here atleast with blessing you need to roll a ONE decent one, and the other you apply from the pool of blessings you created from sub par weapon disasemblies.
Yes it would be BEST if we had the system same as weaves where we just put points into making a weapon WE WANT - BUT - after this changes it ISNT so sky is falling as you make it out here “Hurr they are killing the game Durr”
And about whataboutism, did you cry on the forums that FS is killing Very positive Vermintide 2 with their crafting system too?
Or are you too deep in hating this game for hating it?
Wrong. Some people do.
Some people might get perfect rolls within 20hrs of playing. Some people like me can play for 500hrs and not get anywhere close.
That is what happens when the entire system is purely based on rng.
Nobody can possibly earn anything. But some lucky people just have it given to them.
This system is not about understanding what combination is good, farming and then using that.
We do not think about something interesting and get to try it out.
We get to use what ever the slot machine gives to us, which is very likely not what we want.
And there is absolutely nothing that we can do about it.
There is absolutely zero virtue or value to a system where every item is „unique“ and every player uses a „unique“ item that nobody else has.
Because nobody wants to be using the item they have.
Are you really not capable of understanding any of this?
Imagine going to work every day, but you never know how much you get paid, or if you will get paid at all.
And the same happens to everyone else. Everyone gets an „exciting“ paycheck with a „unique“ number on it. The amount you get paid is almost always very close to 0 (but not actually 0 because that would not be „unique“).
And once in a while, someone just randomly gets a few millions for absolutely no reason (one out of a few thousand people).
Wow such a great system. So exciting and rewarding.
Really makes you want to spend time working there.
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After pointing out that you are arguing in bad faith by making things up and using whataboutism, you then super transparently try to strawman by asking if I have said something I have never said. Thank you for showing me what kind of person you are. Permanent ignore list it is.
Also… you were invited to the forums by Hedge? Oh this is almost too good.
Pretty different crafting system, bit tedious, but no locked statistics. Also, the VT2 crafting system saw its fair share of criticism, which is why they kept improving it.
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