[CATACLYSM] Huntsman + Longobow needs better BREAKPOINTS

Well, we have already talked about this, and everyone has his opinion, I haven’t problems with this… but (I don’t want be rude) scoreboard can’t a be a prove! it’s too influenced by players’ skill.

Scoreboard shows what I can do with my poor head shot accuracy, so it is quite on point actually

Sorry, I repeat that I don’t want to seem rude, but it’s totally false. We can do a good match with a bad career, as we can do a bad match with a good career. Moreover I’m not saying that Huntsman is trash. Obvly we can do, with him, good matches. I’m just saying that he’s overshadowed.

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Considering ranged weapons got 20% buff in damage while enemies got 24% on average buff to HP. Kinda execution of balance was kinda crap is what I’m saying.

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I haven’t used him in Cata, I’ll have to test… are breakpoints really out of reach for him? I’ve used him on legend with 10%x2 skaven and he body shots SV and all skaven specials. Even with no power VS chaos, he body shots everything but leeches. Ammo doesn’t seem to be an issue at all for him either. And with the spear he can control hordes pretty damn well too.

Sadly, yes :cry:

Currently, in Legend, every ranged weapon has better breakpoints (for example, Elf Longbow, can easily bodyshot Fire/Gatling; in 1.6 it could not), thanks to “every ranged weapon sets stagger to 1” and “Enhanced Power”.

But, in Cataclysm, Huntsman can easily bodyshot only Fire and Gatling rat. As written, he can bodyshot also Packmaster, but you must invest a huge amount of “power vs”; so you lose every ability toward crowd control (both ranged and melee). I think that Human Longbow is the weapon with the worst breakpoints.

Shot Crafter has been precious.

This was a succes run in Fow Cata. Unless you are so good to say it is “a” match, I m not. And in several failed attenpt, I had pretty much always half BW damage

He is the only one to be able to take hunter reliably.
He can proc it reliably, and then you one shot everything.

Honestly I haven’t understood well what you mean… Or maybe there was been a misunderstanding and you haven’t understood what I’m saying. That scoreboard just shows that it’s possible do a good match with Huntsman. I haven’t said that you can’t do that. You can still score g
ood results, but this doesn’t mean that he’s not overshadowed by other ranged careers.

Sure, but you need an headshot, while other ranged careers can just aim the body.

They do not achieve better results by aiming at the body. And empire bow is vastly superior against super armor and bosses.

And about the scoreboard: what it is meant to show is that you don’t need many headshot to make it work. And this results are consistent over all our tries to Fow.
And the BH in the picture has way more skill and ail than I have …

You say he is overshadowed by others but none of them has its ceiling, none of them get its survabity and while he is good everywhere, other ranged have to trade something to become excellent somewhere.

And a lot comes from hit ukt, which is doing way more thing than what his written:
-give amo
-give nonamo consomption
-give increased damages
-give invisibility
And on a very reasonable cooldown.

So please detail me your point. Because I can t see how he is overshadowed.

I m worried he get a buff, because the balance is good and he doesn’t need a lot to overshadow the other classes.

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I see, I’ll have to test that out. I’m using scrounger on Legend, tried him out last night. He already 1 shots nearly everything, 2 shots CWs with his ULT. He’s pretty impressive on legend anyway, I’ll have to take him into Cata today.

If you want talk about Huntsman, I’m ready. But please can we stop to talk about scoreboard? That the scoreboard means nothing is an objective fact that is recognized by everyone in virtually all forums. That Huntsman can do a good score without a lot of headshots, doesn’t mean that he can’t be overshadowed by other careers. None excludes the other. Then, if you still think that scoreboard is a prove… well, you are free to have your opinion, but I will not talk again about this.

About Huntsman:

I suppose you are talking about other ranged careers. I don’t want to seem arrogant, but imho there are some “arguments” that are subjective and other ones objective. And the quoted part, it’s false.

  • WS + Longbow + Bloodshot can bodyshot every Specials + Stormvermin with a more versatile and accurate weapon.
    During hordes, it’s impossible to have Bloodshot disabled, but even in that case, Elf Longbow can kill almost all faster. An example: against SV (but I repeat: without Bloodshot), both Human and Elf Longbow kill it with 2 bodyshot or 1 headshot. But Elf one is more accurate and it has a better rate of fire, so it will kill the SV more easily in both cases.

  • BH + Crossbow is already a better combination. Crossbow is another more versatile weapon (read the OP to know why) that has the same breakpoints (Fire and Gatling rat). But if we add BH’s free crits, it can bodyshot everything except CW and banner beast.

  • Against super amors: it depends. Huntsman can kill more CW but it will require aim and time. BH can kill less CW but instantly and without aiming.
    But most importantly both BH and WS can modify their ult in a “sniper”. If you aim the head (as you have to do with Huntsman), you will kill the CW and you will reset the cooldown… so you will be ready for another CW.

  • Against bosses, the only “influential” ranged weapons are Hagbane and Fireball staff.
    Crossbow, Human and Elf Longbow are all pretty bad against bosses. They need to score continuously headshots (thing that it’s not always possible)… and sure, Human Longbow will do a little more damage, but they are all pretty similar. Imho this isn’t a real advantage.

This is the only Huntsman advantage: survivability. But imho it’s not enough, because, in this case, survivability means “Oh, I have put myself in a bad situation, now I will active stealth mode so I will be safe for some seconds and every Elites will aim my friends (and this can be fatal)”… but anyway yes; as written this can be considered the only Huntsman advantage.

Well, Huntsman ult is nice… but also BH and WS ult are good. They can be a elites killers, they can insta-kill and safely a Special when you totally need to kill it.

  • “give ammo” isn’t an Huntsman advantage because also the other ranged careers have infinite ammo.

  • “more damage” let Huntsman to reach better breakpoints… but the other ranged careers already can reach every breakpoint toward Specials (and some Elites).

As written before, invisibility is the only real advantage… but as I have already said, I’m not saying that Huntsman is trash. Huntsman is a good career. I don’t want totally buff him. He just needs a little help about breakpoints.

I totally agree. Luckly BH can still bodyshot everything thanks his free crits and WS has gained Bloodshot (at least they are still balanced).

But Huntsman has lost breakpoints with Cataclysm entry. He is the only ranged career that has been nerfed.

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But your mistake is that you take everything in a Container. Sur bh Crit is nice, sure bloodshot is nice. But in Cata, or Fw, there are way too much specials to rely on that.

Moreover w you say that they have infinite ammo. So at what cost? What do you trade for infinite ammo?
Scrounger on crossbow, instead of hunter.
Conservative shooter on elf, or ult talent?

Finally you take single shot ult into the board: yeah they are extremely good if you can aim, but not reliable else. They key differences is that if you miss with longbow, you get to fire once again. You can’t say that about elf and booty ult which are on huge cooldown.

You don’t even read my point about scoreboard, you just discard it. So ok I won’t talk about it. I will try to achieve the same thing with bounty or ws in Fow cata… Ohoh wait, I have tried, I can’t. By the way, do you know you can cancel storm overheads with spear?

My point is, with a team rolling on the map BH or ws are great. But as soon as multiple specials or elit come in. They are dead. Huntsman is rolling…

Hag does damage until it runs out of ammo. Fireball is good indeed. But turns out they are shy compared to BW dots.

You clearly have no idea how much damage longbow can dish out to a monster. With 50% hs damage, 40% crit damages and ult, everything but chaos spawn is dead so fast. Even more considering the huge number of crits you are doing.

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  • Honestly, I disagree. I strongly feel that both “free crit” and Bloodshot are enough for almost every Specials;

  • but the problem becomes bigger if we consider that, also without Bloodshot and “free crit”, both Elf Longbow and Crossbow can kill a Special more quickly than Human Longbow. They all need an headshot, but Elf Longbow and Crossbow are more accurate and they can shoot with a shorter delay.

  • With BH, you must not give up to nothing. BH must not use Hunter because, with 40% crit power, 10% Chaos and 10% Skaven, you don’t need Hunter… it would not add none new breakpoint;

  • With WS, it’s true, you have to give up some CW damage… but, I repeat, I’m not saying that Huntsman is trash. He has some little advantages, but as I have explained, they aren’t an enough tradeoff.
    I’m mainly comparing the breakpoints toward Specials, where Huntsman is totally overshadowed. Regardless this, every Ranged Career has pro and cons (for example HS has this “more power” against CWs, but WS has HP regen, the possibility to instantly kill a Special, the possibility to recover ammo without none effort).
    p.s anyway also the “standard” WS ult does a great damage toward CWs.

These are just pro and cons. Not an Huntsman advantage. He can damage CWs with his weapon, so he’s more versatile (but anyway he needs aim and more headshots, it’s not always possible). BH needs the ult, but he can instantly kill them. WS needs more aim than HS, but she could delete an entire Chaos patrol in few seconds.

I always read all posts, otherwise it would be rude.
The point is that, as I have already said, scoreboards are subjective.

  • Have you done a good match with Huntsman without aiming heads? Well, but this doesn’t mean that Huntsman can’t be overshadowed;

  • Can’t you do the same with WS and BH? Well, it could be your fault.

These things prove nothings. Now I really will not talk anymore about scoreboard.

If you finish every Hagbane ammo on a boss, it will die.

I disagree. But apart that runs 40% power is a very strange build… also Elf Longbow and Crossbow can melt a boss like Stormfiend that he is motionless waiting “for headshots”. But the reality is another thing. I know bosses that spawn while there are hordes and thousand specials, I know bosses that turning around them like spinning tops, I know bosses that does innatural movements with their heads…

Why is this so strange to run 40% crit power on bow when you are doing so much crits ?

2 specials in front of you, surely you one shot the first thx to your crit but how are you doing the second one?

You no longer have bloodshot or garented crit, hunter is always on. And with the ult, I don’t nee it anymore. Even if 2 more show up .

I’m only against buff because I l worried the two others will be overshadowed once people realise how strong huntsman bow really is.

On a side note, one slick combo is uncharged shot in a head then charged attack with spear into the head.

Hs crit is a stormvermine kill. And you get 45% crit chance until your first crit.

The only buff I could see on bow is like crossbow, increased crit chances, or crit damage. Or a little bit of draw speed (on top of wom buff).

But he don’t need damage.

Ps: I ll try to embarrass myself showing how bad I am by recording what I can do nevertheless

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In order to active Hunter, you have to do an headshot (to increase your crit chance) on the first Special, and then pray that crit% works on the second one and only now you (maybe) finally have Hunter active.

With Bloodshot/BH’s free crit you can kill the first Special with a bodyshot, and the second one with an headshot… BUT:

  • also with Huntsman you have to do at least one headshot;

  • with Elf Longbow and Crossbow, it’s easier score an headshot.

Moreover Hunter works only with same tier enemies. If you kill a Fire Rat, it doesn’t work for Leech, Stormer, Assassin, Globadier…

Moreover again, 80-90% of the times, you have Bloodshot/free crit ready.

I’d just add that something else Huntsman can do that BH and WS can’t is Ult then stand there completely safe for 6 seconds, while able to body shot every special in view. I’ve found his Ult so clutch when dealing with groups of specials at once.

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Yes his ult is great. But less flashy. I do prefer CDR or longer ult though, because you don’t want to overwhelm your team with aggro, it is easier to hs people coming towards you and it is either better against specials or bosses.

This is quite a subjective statement and I disagree entirely. Was playing a lot of BH and ws lately, and it is all the same.

The first one is a one shot anyway. The second are all infantry, keep hunter up with hordes. And the more special, ie the higher the difficulty, the more it is up on his own. I often have infantry/armor/monster up at the same time in Fow.

There could be a subjective part because everyone has one “favorite weapon”; but there are also objective factors:

  • Both Elf Bow and Crossbow have a shorter delay before to shoot, and this makes easier score an headshot;

  • Elf Bow (and I think also Crossbow) has less spread, and this makes easier score an headshot;

  • Elf Bow has more zoom (and, unlike Huntsman, you can choose when use it), and this makes easier score an headshot toward a far enemy;

  • Elf Bow has more rate of fire, and this makes easier try another shot if the first one misses.

  1. First Special:

    • Huntman needs an headshot;

    • BH/WS can score a bodyshot;

  2. Second Special:

    • Huntsman needs another headshot OR he must pray that crit% works (we have 45%, not 100%);

    • BH/WS most likely have bloodshot/free crit again ready (so another bodyshot) OR they must score an headshot, but also Huntsman had to do the same (so this can’t be a BH/WS disadvantage). Moreover BH/WS have more versatile weapon, and this makes it easier;

  3. Third Special:

    • Huntsman: if, and I repeat if crit% has worked, he can score a bodyshot (but ONLY against a Special with the same armor tier) OR he needs another headshot;

    • BH/WS: even if, with the previous Special, bloodshot/free crit weren’t ready, now they totally are.

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