[CATACLYSM] Huntsman + Longobow needs better BREAKPOINTS

Because it’s deleted, and you know it. Thanks for confirming it to me. You also answered your own question.

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He is making a point, no need to be harsh. He is right when saying that xbow is superior. Bow work because of huntsman. Xbow work on anybody. I know that only huntsman can use bow, but if it was not limited to him, would it be used? I doubt that.
So we can argue about buffing the bow. (Crit chance? Bit of damage?)
Is repeater better? We can argue this as well.

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I don’t want seem rude, but wtf? I have confirmed what? That have I written other threads about this? Why should I hide it?

Let me explain the situation:

  1. I has been invited to the beta. I have met a “new Vermintide” with a new balance, so I have written a first post about Longbow and Handgun (so toward HS but also RV). It seems legit; it was OUR JOB. Rather a Fatshark member has thanked me for reporting;

  2. A new patch (still during beta) has been released; and that patch has done a little buff toward Longbow and Handgun. So we had, once again, a new balance and a “new Huntsman”. I have opened a thread to talk about that patch. Imho it’s still legit: the feedback must be updated with the game release. An old feedback is useless (if the patch hadn’t talked about the Huntsman, I wouldn’t have made another thread);

  3. The beta has been closed, as its feedback section (closed and invisible). The official game has been released with obvly a totally new balance. So I should not talk about the CURRENT GAME just because I have treated that topic during an old beta (so where there was a different balance and different reasonings -for example now Handgun is pretty decent and so I haven’t talked about it in this thread-)? Where the majority of player could not see it because beta section was “private”? Sorry, but imho it’s nonsense, and none forum’s rules forbids it.

Every my thread was different and motivated.

Thanks.

Since coming on to this forum I’ve seen people asking for Huntsman with Longbow to be buffed, even at times when he’s able to kill Bosses in 5 seconds.

I and many of my friends play him and have no issues, we’ve gone into detail on how the 40% Crit he’s capable of and the playstyle of going for headshots is more than capable of making him a good Special killer and an all around sustained Elite/Boss killer too. I don’t think there’s any good argument for him to gain any more power VS anything.

That’s why I’m highly sceptical when I see these threads, especially when you pretty much force the same responses in different threads. It’s clear that you’re pushing for something by opening multiple threads about the same thing.

All I can really say about Hunstman Longbow, is that he’s good, and even better for good players. Once you reach a level of play where you can land headshots a lot of the time he can sometimes trivialize gameplay because of his Crit breakpoint. If you gave him one-shot mechanics outside of his 40% Crit chance, it would just make him completely broken, and I think you know that.

It’s the most accuracy dependent build and you’re more than rewarded for perfecting it.

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Before “your problem” was that I have done too many threads. Now that I have shown you that it’s false, you are saying that I spam because you think that Huntsman is ok. Let me understand better: if you think that one career is ok, other players can’t open a thread or have a different opinion… ?

Oh, I remember that thread, as I remember that I had said the damage vs monster had to be nerfed.

Can we stop to talk about these alleged accusations and can we talk about Huntsman? Thanks.

You are free to think that Huntsman is ok, but you can’t force it to be objective. Everyone has his opinion.
The mechanics headshot/crit is like “high risk but none high reward”. It’s more risky because you have to do headshot (it needs skill and it isn’t always possible) but it hasn’t an higher reward becuase, as a result, you just kill the Special. But also other careers can do that with a simple bodyshot.
The only advantage is a good damage vs CWs, but imho it isn’t an enough trade off (also because also the other careers have some “tricks” to deal with them).

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We didn’t establish that at all. As I said, you’ve made a similar thread and now you’re going to get the exact same responses by making the same points. You just tried to imply that I had no evidence while perplexingly pointing out that the evidence had been deleted and you acknowledged that.

They rely on a melee kill. Huntsman can do it all from the safety of range. Already said this in the other thread.

Headshots are usually a kill, the 40% Crit chance then gives you enough of a chance at a one-shot breakpoint. Which can be used on Specials, Elites, Hordes, and Bosses Already said this in the other thread.

This can all be done from ranged with a decent fire rate weapon which has high sustained throughout the map. Already said this before.

The weapons ammo can easily be maintained throughout the map too, so if your melee frontline is good enough you can potentially stay with ranged equipped for the entire map. Already said this before.

Giving Longbow breakpoints on every Special would make all of Kruber’s other ranged weapons worthless, and potentially make him the only Special killer worth taking. Already said this.

He has high damage vs every enemy type, and with high ammo regen, he’s good against Hordes too. Already said this.

You have 4 people in the group, and he shouldn’t be able to off every single Special in one hit, it would trivialize the game. The other 3 people can also damage So he doesn’t need to be that strong. Already said this too.

If they made the changes you’re suggesting, what do you think should happen to his other ranged weapons, once he’s already so OP with Longbow that there’s no point in not taking him in every group?

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Stop it, please. Do you want just “win” this discussion or don’t you understand what I have written? I have asked for evidence about the alleged accusations of spamming, but to open a thread for a different release it’s NOT spam. So, since I have done one only thread per “game version” (moreover first one was about a beta), I have asked “Where is these spamming threads?”

That it’s useless, it’s just your opinion. That I will receive the same feedback, it’s just your opinion (or better, just you are saying the same things; I have received different and positive feedback).

This is false. BH ult has a cooldown but it can bodyshot a CW. So it has a trade off. But mainly, as you have said, we play with a team. Huntsman can help a little, but we will have another careers specialized as elites killer;

I have already said that. To score an headshot isn’t always possible. Moreover crit/headshot toward Specials aren’t an advantage, because other ranged careers can kill every Special (+ SV) also with one bodyshot.
To score always headshots vs a boss, it’s pretty impossible.
Also other weapons can deal with hordes.

Also BH, WS and RV have infinite and free ammo (while HS must do headshot).
Elf Longbow has more rate of fire and more precision (and also better breakpoints…): it’s just better;
Crossbow can fire without a delay and also in hipfire; moreover it has the same rate of fire as Longbow’s full charged arrow.

I haven’t never said that. I want better breakpoints, not every one. P.s anyway other ranged careers can bodyshot every Specials + SV

Exactly as other ranged careers.

But other ranged careers can do it.

My argument is that you’ve made other threads/posts about it. The game hasn’t changed enough since then to justify another thread with the same results.

You said it’s false and then didn’t prove it wrong. What you responded with had nothing to do with the point I made. He can do it from the safety of range and doesn’t require a melee kill to gain his 40% Crit chance.

It’s not always possible, but it’s possible most of the time. He’s the only career I would prefer to stay with my range out for the entirity of the match. Once you get enough practice with him getting headshots is the least difficult part of playing him, positioning becomes the hard part.

Yes, he’s built to sustain ammo through headshots. He’s one of the best careers in terms of playing more skillfully resulting in a reward. i.e more ammo, and more damage.

Elf’s Longbow isn’t out all of the time, and relies on a melee kill for the one hit break point on most enemies, and that’s just as WS.

Crossbow isn’t out all of the time and relies on melee kills and sometimes crits to land kills on enemies you’re not build for. The stat breakpoints also effect which melee stats you take, and determine whether you’re going to be good against Specials or Elites and which type of Special and Elite.

Longbow is way more versatile because the Crit chance offers breakpoints on all enemy types, it’s also out for most of the match compared to other Special killers who either rely on a melee kill, or don’t gain the sustained Longbow does from using it for the entire match.

It’s implied as his Crit chance will not be nerfed, he will just gain damage vs certain enemies. This results in him having a higher chance of one-shotting the majority of enemies on top of his 40% Crit chance.

Most other ranged classes, other than sometimes BH Crossbow (depending on his build e.g Skaven/Armoured), don’t use their ranged as much as Longbow, it’s supposed to be used for as long as possible to maximize on his Crit/ammo sustain/versatility, that other ranged classes don’t get without a melee kill.

With an Ult and a Breakpoint Crit from a melee kill, sure. But they can’t do it on every 4+ Special spawn, which is what he would do. They depend on cooldowns/procs, his mechanics are built for more sustain. That’s the difference I keep trying to point out.

And

  1. This is just your opinion; untill I don’t violate the regulation, I can write what I want (and it should be enough remember to you that what I have written in beta section was invisible for the most users, because that section was private);

  2. I mean that HS can help to handle CW from distance, but also BH can do it thanks his ult. Ult has a cooldown so it’s less versatile, but it’s stronger and can bodyshot a CW;

  3. the point is another. To score an headshot toward a Special and to gain crit chance to kill the next Special, it’s not an HS advantage, because other ranged careers can bodyshot every Specials and also SV.
    You can spam arrows toward an horde to get a good amount of ammo, but also other ranged careers have infinite ammo.;

  4. this is false. I repeat that Elf Longbow with 10% infantry, 10% armour, 10% chaos, 10% skaven and Bloodshot can bodyshot every Special and also SV. And it’s more versatile and accurate.
    Crossbow has the same Human Longbow’s breakpoints (it needs +15% vs to bodyshot Fire and Gatling Rat). Moreover it hasn’t a delay, it can fire in hipfire, it has same penetration as Human Longbow, it has more or less the same rate of fire (obvly compared with full charged arrows). And Crossbow can be used by BH, that thanks his free crits he can bodyshot everything;
    p.s I repeat: HS is meant to sustain his ammo through headshot… while other ranged careers have just free and infinite ammo;

  5. as already said, the other ranged careers can reach the same breakpoints without headshot and they don’t need this “higher crit chance” because or they have guaranteed crit or they can bodyshot everything directly;

  6. nope, I mean without ult. I have explained why;

  7. if you buff wisely a career, you don’t make the others useless.

It is just my opinion.

Again, this is irrelevant to the point I made.

They have to build for that, which lowers their effective melee damage, the majority of them other than Crossbow need a melee kill too, and even then he can only do it on the specific enemy he’s built for. The strength of Huntsmans mechanics is that he’s more versatile.

If you consistantly land headshots you should have no problem. I don’t see the point here. Maybe other classes should be nerfed.

It’s not more versatile at all. Crit is good vs all enemies. Elf Longbow in the example you’ve given wouldn’t be as effective against Bosses or Beastmen. Also the double shot Talent is more effective anyway as it’s more versatile than bloodshot, but relies on melee kills to proc, and she’s not very strong in melee.

This is because he uses it more than them. The reason you don’t build for breakpoints is because the Crit is more beneficial and makes him way more versatile. You’re able to keep the Longbow out for nearly the entire match because it’s usable against every enemy type. That’s the point of it and his mechanics. Other classes rely on short bursts of damage, Ults and Melee kills.

I haven’t even mentioned how his Ultimate can be used to clear Elites and Specials too, while still being Viable vs Bosses.

Other classes must build towards doing oneshot body shots and it then lowers their damage in other ways. If you run the SV/Armoured Crossbow build and it’s Chaos/Beastmen spawns, you’re somewhat less useful. But if you’re Longbow Huntsman with a Crit build it doesn’t matter what the spawns are.

They have different mechanics, you’re comparing Longbow which is best used for the majority of the match to weapons and builds that aren’t out for the majority of the match. The only exception being Crossbow during a Skaven spawn area. That’s it.

They rely on melee then or they’re only good against certain enemies.

Yeah, and giving a class with a potential 40% Crit that uses Longbow for longer than other people use their ranged weapons, with the exception of Crossbow with Skaven/Armoured in a Skaven spawn, would make it absurd because of the fire rate. His other ranged weapons, and other peoples ranged weapons would have no way to compete.

You’re comparing Huntsman to what other classes can do in short bursts, when he’s supposed to be sustained ranged throughout the match and using melee weapons as little as possible. If you’re meleeing and only switching to ranged when Specials are up, you’re playing Huntsman inefficiently. He’s a majority of the time pure ranged unlike the other ranged classes.

There’s no reason he should be able to burst down Specials how others can while also having more ranged versatility than them.

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  1. It doesn’t seem to me irrelevant;

  2. To spam arrows vs hordes, it’s not an enough trade off. I pick a ranged career to kill Special. Other careers do that job (kill hordes). And anyway also WS can spam arrows toward hordes.
    Moreover BH, thanks his free crit, doesn’t need a particular build to kill specials (he can use properties to be good in melee/vs hordes).
    While WS must use 10% vs infantry, Skaven and Chaos… properties good also to kill hordes;

  3. The point is that, as you have said, ammo regen isn’t an HS’ advantage;

  4. Elf Longbow is more accurate: fact. It has more rate of fire: fact. It has a shorter delay: fact. It can bodyshot every Special and SV: another fact. It just a little bit less efficient toward hordes: but it’s not an enough trade off;

  5. Why? Specials and SV are always present. Also if the map spawn mainly Beastmen. I repeat: HS is a little bit more efficient toward hordes but it’s not an enough trade off. We already have Sienna like ranged career meant to melt hordes. A pure special killer must do his job: kill Specials. And to fill that role, WS and BH will be always better.

  6. With “use the Longbow for almost the entire match” you mean to spam some arrows toward horde? If you play Cataclysm, hordes just spawn on you. You will be always forced to use your melee weapon. I prefer a special killer that simply does his job: kill the specials, as I have said.

  7. as I have already said, a special killer is versatile when he can bodyshot always with a versatile and easy to use weapon… not when he can spam some arrows toward hordes but, when he must totally kill a dangerous special, he’s forced to do headshot.

At the risk of repeating myself for an eternity in the second thread you’ve made I’ll finish with this:

To end this discussion (because you right, we are repeating ourself) let’s make it easy.

We are agree that Huntsman has “less power” toward Specials. You think that it’s ok because Huntsman can use his bow for a longer time. Instead I think that this isn’t an enough advantage for different reasons:

  • also other ranged careers have infinite (and free, they don’t need an headshot) ammo;

  • also other ranged careers can spam toward hordes; sure, Huntsman will do a little more damage… but to fill his role, killing specials is the most important things;

  • in cataclysm we can’t just use always our ranged weapon because often hordes just spawn on us.

We have just a different opinion.

Apart the “spam accusations”, thanks for the conversation. Have a good day.

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The problem is that if you push LB into the spamming ranged attacks over a long period niche, repeater handgun already fills that and is much better at it fires a lot quicker.

There is no reason to take LB if it is outshone by both that and then elf’s LB in the special sniping department.

BH also has great crit, especially if you factor in his talents that reset Blessed Shots on melee kill or the one that reduces its CD to 6s.

Definitely agreed with this QoL change.

This is very true.

On the OP: imo a large part of the problem atm is crossbows are overtuned and on WS Bloodshot gives Kerillian’s LB ridiculous breakpoint potential.

Perhaps for huntsman they could give him a bit of a damage boost on fully charged arrows as right now even if you take 40% power vs you can’t get into one bodyshot range against SV or most specials (excluding gutter runners, warpfire throwers/ratlings who you can). imo for that kind of stat investment you should be able to one bodyshot the chosen enemy type, be they skaven/armoured, skaven/monster, skaven/infantry or chaos/infantry. As it is now in each case you fall between 15-20% short. It’s not like it would make him OP either, as he’d have to pick which enemy type he wants to be able to pwn like that. It’d actually be kinda neat.

He could anyway use at a minimum use a 1% buff to his fully charged arrows at least, as right now he’s short of the 2 full charged bodyshot breakpoint for bestigors and 3 full charged bodyshot breakpoint for maulers by about 0.3% power, and with 20% vs berserkers he’s short by about 0.6% of the 2 full charged bodyshot breakpoint for plague monks/savages. Those are not meaningful breakpoints but rather annoying, as he basically just has to breathe on them once they get into melee (or unload an uncharged arrow) to finish them off.

Other than that I can’t complain about Huntsman as he is now. WoM did push me back into the arms of the repeater handgun and away from longbow though, hence why I think Empire LB could use a bit of love (but not too much).

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Totally agree. Not only Repeater gun has a better rate of fire, but also better breakpoints. With 20% infantry, 10% Skaven and 10% Chaos (the properties that you use if you want kill hordes with Longbow) Repgun can bodyshot every infantry that Longbow can kill, MORE GOR (Longbow can’t bodyshot it).

Totally agree again. I’m NOT saying that they need a nerf (rather, with this new meta, ranged careers are disadvantaged if compared with crowd control ones)… but if a more versatile weapon like Crossbow or Elf Longbow (and I have written in a previous post the reason) has also better breakpoints… there is a problem. Sure, Human Longbow is slightly better against hordes… but in Cataclysm, hordes often spawn directly on you; you haven’t always the time to shoot them. Moreover also Elf Longbow and Crossbow has a good damage toward hordes. IMHO this can’t be an enough tradeoff to compensate for the lack in his work (killing Specials).

True. It’s quite frustrating.

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I was reading the old patch notes for another reason, when I have seen this message directly from @Fatshark_Hedge note (evidently I had missed it):

I think Fatshark had done this change because, during beta, many ranged weapons were trash. It seems logic. Currently I don’t know if now they know this. If it’s intended or not. But also with this +20% damage boost, Human Longbow doesn’t reach any new breakpoint since beta. It’s the same “beta-Longbow”.

It’s more that they failed to make ranged weapons exempt from stagger system, along Smiter weapons and stabs https://i.imgur.com/X0QxF2H.jpg

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Once again, the bow is fine. Picture from FOW Cata.
What we can learn from this picture: BW is op as hell.
Taunt is incredibly strong. BH really good against boss, especially trolls. And hunstman with longbow is a killing machine.

Especially considering my poor HS accuracy…

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What do you mean? I guess you are saying that ranged weapons have been too nerfed with stagger system entry… right? In this case, I agree. In fact I haven’t understood because Fatshark has nerfed Enhanced Power talent. It was a good way to avoid this problem.

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