[EMPIRE LONGBOW] Unhappy breakpoints

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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Hi guys; I don’t know if you remember my previous posts about Shotguns and Handgun… Well, they have been easier to write. We were talking about weapons with a problem that breaks their style, their niche. A problem that makes them a paradox.

Empire Longbow is a different speech because it’s a coherent weapon… BUT it’s overshadowed. Automatically it loses its niche.

Since it’s coherent but overshadowed, I’m forced to talk about those weapons that fulfill the same niche and they are simply stronger: ELF LONGBOW and CROSSBOW

--------------------------------------------WHY IS EMPIRE BOW OVERSHADOWED?------------------------------------------------

  • EMPIRE LONGBOW is slower and less versatile:
    • slower rate of fire;
    • less precision;
    • less mobility;
    • longer delay to shoot;

These cons could seem “legit” because EMPIRE LONGBOW’s damage is higher… sadly this does NOT bring any advantage. Let’s see why.

:warning:: both with Empire Bow, Elf Bow and Crossbow I used the build to reach the highest number of breakpoints.

:warning:: how to read the “tables”: (number of bodyshot to kill / number of headshot to kill)

  • EMPIRE LONGBOW’S breakpoints (10% chaos, 10% skaven, 20% infantry):

    • Ratling: (1/1)
    • Flamerat: (1/1)
    • Leech: (2/1)
    • Stormer: (2/1)
    • Globadier: (2/1)
    • Packmaster: (2/1)
    • Assassin: (1/1)
      °
    • Berserker: (2/1)
    • Monk: (2/1)
    • Stormvermin: (2/1)
    • Mauler: (2/*)
    • Bestgor: (2/1)
    • Wargor (*/1)

  • ELF LONGBOW’S breakpoints (10% infantry, armour, chaos, skaven):

    • Ratling: (2/1)
    • Flamerat: (2/1)
    • Leech: (2/1)
    • Stormer: (2/1)
    • Globadier: (2/1)
    • Packmaster: (2/1)
    • Assassin: (1/1)
      °
    • Berserker: (2/1)
    • Monk: (2/1)
    • Stormvermin: (2/1)
    • Mauler: (3/*)
    • Bestgor: (3/1)
    • Wargor (*/1)

  • CROSSBOW’S breakpoints (10% skaven, 10% chaos, 20% armour);

    • Ratling: (1/1)
    • Flamerat: (1/1)
    • Leech: (2/1)
    • Stormer: (2/1)
    • Globadier: (2/1)
    • Packmaster: (2/1)
    • Assassin: (1/1)
      °
    • Berserker: (3/1)
    • Monk: (3/1)
    • Stormvermin: (2/1)
    • Mauler: (3/*)
    • Bestgor: (2/1)
    • Wargor (*/1)

  • REP GUN and HAGBANE: these two weapons can’t be compared through breakponts because they are based on rate of fire (the first one) and versatility/stagger/horde killing (the second one)… but believe me, they overshadow the EMPIRE LONGBOW;

------------------------------------------------------------RESULTS----------------------------------------------------------------------------

BODYSHOT: as you can see EMPIRE LONGBOW has better breakpoints only vs Mauler (2 bodyshot instead of 3);

HEADSHOT: that EMPIRE LONGBOW is a weapon meant to score headshots is only a myth! It has not better headshot breakpoints… Chaos Warriors apart. But one only enemy can’t be a legit tradeoff.

----------------------------------AND THE CAREERS WHO USE THESE WEAPONS?----------------------------------------

Someone could say: “you can’t compare weapons used by different careers”… well, if we think that who uses ELF BOW and CROSSBOW has strong talents like BLESSED AND BLOODSHOT… EMPIRE BOW’s situation gets worse.
Moreover the HUNTSMAN +50% headshot damage is useful only vs CW and bosses (but BH + Crossbow + double shot ult is still a stronger bosses killer) and HUNTSMAN’s ult adds few breakpoints if compared with its short duration and long cooldown.

-----------------------------------------------------------WHAT WOULD I DO---------------------------------------------------------------

Very, very simple. EMPIRE BOW, in addition to those exposed breakpoints, should be able to bodyshot Packmaster and maybe Globadier. Only in this way it can be (really) a slower but stronger weapon.

Thanks for reading.

5 Likes
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I think a much better way to buff the Empire Longbow is remove the one-bodyshot Stormvermin breakpoint in Legend, and instead let a fully charged shot cleave through multiple elites. Give it the ability to line up a shot and kill 3 Stormvermin with a headshot with a fully charged shot. This makes it less oppressive in Legend and much more useful in higher difficulties.

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I still just wish it didn’t feel so janky to use, and maybe didn’t plant your feet in place to when charging shots. I’d love to see the zoom be optional with mouse special too, it just does not feel smooth to use currently.

Your breakpoint suggestions seem reasonable, but not experienced with it on Cata so can’t really comment there.

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I might be in the minority because I enjoy the feel of the empire longbow.
Going to be comparing Longbow and Empire Longbow, leaving Crossbow out for most of this.

  • Both bow’s have a dodge count of 3 and a dodge range of 0% and are able to dodge while aiming.
  • Both bow’s have a movement speed penalty while firing quick shots.
  • Empire’s longbow movement speed penalty while aiming doesn’t kick in till the 3rd charge level and the plant doesn’t kick until a small delay after reaching 3rd charge.
  • Elf Longbow also has a movement speed penalty while aiming.
  • Empire longbow can negate the movement speed penalty by hovering around mid charge, (tapping right click) Elf longbow can do the same with first but it’s extremely sickening due to the fact you’ll be zooming in and out over and over.
  • Precision is up for debate, if you’re moving/dodging while aiming you’re going against the point of Elf Longbow being more precise.

Despite what the armory says:
-Empire longbow reload speed o.65, quick shot 0.60
-Elf Longbow reload speed 0.00, quick shot 0.65
They both fire 16 quick shots every 10 seconds due to the fact elf longbow has a delay before it can be fired again or switch to melee.
Granted, Empire Longbow has a longer charge time for heavy shots but that’s a reasonable trade off for the ability to 2 - 3 headshot a CW. For comparison, Empire Longbow can fire 7 heavies in 10 seconds, compared to Elf longbows 10 aimed shots.

In summary, Empire Longbow is not slower or less versatile.
Empire Longbow can be just as mobile.
Rate of fire on the quick shots are identical, while heavies are slower: a fair trade-off for more CW damage.
3 different damage profiles, i.e more choice, more versatility.
Less delay before you can switch back to melee after firing Empire Longbow, a more fluid/safer time to switch back and block in the middle of a horde.

Also want to point out Huntsman’s 50% headshot damage also affects his melee, some nice synergy with weapons like Spear.
Huntsman can also stack a lot of crit chance, up to 45% after a headshot. Assuming it’s up, you have a safety net, practically a 1 in 2 chance to 1 shot a storm vermin in the body, if you’re unlucky 1 quick shot to the head or 1 medium body shot is enough to finish an SV off.

The only buff’s I can think of is a buff to the mass limit on a heavy shots, monster damage or a tiny power increase to open up a breakpoint to one shot heavy shot storm vermin in the body with 40%

7 Likes
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This too could be an interesting idea.

Ye, I agree.

You seem against may ideas, then you write this… wich is what I want too. Maybe there has been a misunderstanding?

I mean, we agree.

I don’t demand an incredible buff. Just some little love.

Anyway, just to be clear:

I never said they are different in every single aspect.

But these differences I wrote are pretty objective:

  • Emp Bow: you can’t walk during max zoom / Elf Bow: you can;
  • Emp Bow needs more time to “reach” the max damage;
  • Emp Bow (when you use full charged shots) has a slower rate of fire;
  • Emp Bow has an higher spread… score an headshot with Elf Bow is much easier;

You continue saying that Emp Bow isn’t less versatile when you use mid charged shots… the problem is that you are forced to use full charged shots. Let’s see why.

If you use full charged shots: Emp Bow has the same breakpoints as Elf Bow (but remember: in this way it’s slower);

If you use mid charged shots: Emp Bow’s breakpoints are even worse than Elf Bow! Moreover the head multiplier is really low too.
But even if mid charged shots were good… There would not any reason to have these full charged shots so weak.

Yes, but WS has Bloodshot and BH has Blessed Shot… wich are pretty better.

Huntsman’s crit % is random… you must score an headshot, you must find another elite before you wast your crit % bonus in melee, you must pray that the % works.

Anyway this is another speech. I would prefer talk about the weapons.

1 Like
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I’m with @James here, I think the empire longbow is perfect as it is, and not only that, I think the huntsman class is incredibly powerful because of it.

The sheer damage it outputs in full charge is insane, but you gotta remember that said charge boosts headshot damage the most. There’s not near as much difference between full charge body shot and almost-no-charge bodyshots as there is between their headshots.
Which helps tons against bosses and, as James said, Chaos Warriors.
There’s also Huntsman’s ult, which increases his damage a lot while under its effects, and combined with the talent that gives, like, 25% crit chance after every crit, you’ll be critting half of your shots on a weapon that already deals tons of damage.

Quite simply, elf’s longbow has mobility, kruber’s longbow has power. And that’s perfectly fine.

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Was just pointing out Empire Longbow is no where near as bad as it’s made out to be and most of the downsides people come up with e.g Less mobility, less versatility and so on is just not true.
Huntsman’s kit compliments the weapon extremely well.
The longer charge time is the trade off the weapon has for the ability to 2 - 3 shot Chaos Warriors, yes it affects killing most elites but it isn’t that slow and in worst case scenario you do hit the body instead of the head a quick shot headshot or a medium charged body shot doesn’t take much more time.
It’s not about using 1 type of shot exclusively, using a mixture when the situation calls for it.

Thanks @KaelusVonSestiaf

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Man, not to be rude, did you read or understand the thread? There are objective proof that Emp Bow has NOT better breakpoints… both about bodyshot and headshot.

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I just jumped in, but i have to agree. Huntsman has his ult which boosts his power, yes you can compare weapon to weapon, but each class uses them differently and has a different kit. If Huntsman didn’t have his ult then sure, but he does and its not a long cd ult aswell

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I respect your opinion but it’s important to distinguish personal opinions from facts. I mean, everyone has his opinion… for someone Emp Bow’s disadvantages can be more penalizing… for someone else they can be less serious.
But breakpoints and Emp Bow’s less mobility are objective facts that can be proved with tests.

You are free to think that its capacity vs CW is an enough tradeoff… for me, to be better ONLY vs one elite, it’s not enough. Points of view.

Thing that it’s true ONLY vs CW… because for the other specials/elites also Elf Bow and Crossbow can kill them with one headshot.

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BH has Blessed Shot and WS has Bloodshot… talents that can obtain better breakpoint than Huntsman’s ULT (yep, an ult).

Talents ready every 6 seconds or every melee kill vs 6 seconds every 90 seconds.

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James also did tests and it’s also objectively true, your playstyles may be different.

Doesn’t your bp’s show that manbow can also 1shot hs, same as longbow?

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I haven’t understood °-°

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Huntsman has 50% hs power and crit chance increase, with his passives build around headshot’s the career should remain headshot based, it does have crit talents to help other weapons and 50% ish chance is pretty good

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But all this is useful ONLY vs CW… because Elf Bow and Crossbow can kill with one headshot every elite and every special (CW apart, as said).

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How is an ult only usefull against cw’s? I don’t know ult breakpoints, but i’m pretty sure you can oneshot body sv’s in ult and not consume ammo. Shoot pretty fast and you barely need to fully charge your bow as james showed, except on cw’s but then you will mostly be using ult anyway and be invis.

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I was talking about this:

All this power is “wasted”(or better useful only vs CW), because also Elf Bow and Crossbow can kill with 1 headshot every elite and every specials.

HS’ ult is decent (even if imho it should have a longer duration OR a shorter cooldown)… but also WS and BH have nice ults… moreover they have Blessed and Blood Shot.

I’m NOT saying “HS’ ult is trash”… I’m saying that it can’t compensate Emp Bow lacknesses.

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Oh ok, so your breakpoints you posted don’t use headshot talent? What talent did you use or did you use none?

And his power isn’t wasted, he can do more damage on single target and is more consistent then bh who has to play around passive, a good huntsman can reliably make use of the power increase, as a bh is held back even going into melee to reset still takes max 4 secs or so to reset.

Also if manbow and longbow have same bp’s, how does manbow have ‘lacknesses’ ? Also some info is missing on ur tests

You can compare Huntsman and elf on how easy they are to play as i think Huntsman is a more ‘skilled’ career before he excels, elf is easy accesible and to learn

EDIT: If manbow can get same hs bp’s as longbow without using his kit or hs talents, how is he worse?

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Sure that I used headshots talent… but I repeat: it’s useful only vs CW. Also without that talent Emp Bow (as Elf Bow and Crossbow) can 1headshot every Special and Elite.

?.. who cares if I kill X enemy (with 50hp) doing 51 damage or 1000 damage? °-° The result is the same.

I haven’t understood. BH + Crossbow has one free kill every 6 seconds. For the rest it has the same breakpoints as Emp Bow (but it’s faster).

Because it has the same breakpoints but it’s slower.

But to be skilled and scoring headshots with Emp Bow doesn’t bring any advantage (apart vs CW) that Elf Bow and Crossbow can’t reach… this is sad.

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I disagree with everything, but lets just agree to disagree or we are gonna continue to go in circles. :confused:

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