Thoughts on Empire Longbow?

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#1

I was curious what others’ thoughts are on Kruber’s longbow these days. I’ve been playing a lot of Huntsman lately, and personally, I can only feel underwhelmed by it on cata. Sure, it has more damage than the elven longbow when at max charge, but waystalker makes up that difference against most enemies via her bleed damage. Meanwhile, most anything that’s worth shooting will need to be headshot with either bow at max charge regardless, in which case the elven longbow has a big advantage in having 2.5x the fire rate and what seems to be twice the aimed accuracy while moving if the crosshair fix mod can be trusted. So, I’m left feeling like I’m saddled with a much longer charge time compared to other bows/xbows, and then when it is fully charged there’s a high chance the arrow will go way off the mark because the accuracy is poor, meanwhile I’m playing a class whose talents require I get a headshot.

So I dunno, I can live with Kruber’s bow not being the best at everything, but can we at least make it a little more accurate or something? I miss the day’s before WoM when Kruber had a +25% accuracy talent that made the bow much more reliable, and I’d love to see this kind of boost added to the base longbow. Anyone else feel similarly, or am I alone on this?

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#2

I love the manbow, one of my favourite weapons

definitely would like to see a little QoL added though

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#3

I miss the old zoom. It would be great if we had a setting for it or at least a toggle zoom.

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#4

How old specifically? It’s been through what, at least three iterations?

#5

Agreed. The new zoom ruined it for me.
A toggle to swap between the old and new zoom would be nice. Or a crossbow.

The one we had before the most recent BBB would be great.

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#6

I talked a lot about Huntsman and his weapons… and I agree with you.

I will do a quick recap (about Empire Bow):

  • compared with Elf bow, Krub’s bow has: less rate of fire, a longer delay before to shoot, less precision and slower mobility;

  • these malus should (and I repeat: should) be balanced thanks the higher damage… but this doesn’t happen for three reasons:

    • Elf Bow can 1 headshot kill every special and every elite, exactly like Empire Bow can do;
    • also the bodyshot breakpoints are pretty similar (and obvly, where both need two or more arrows, Elf Bow wins thanks the higher rof);
    • Elf Bow has a better dps vs tough enemies, like berserkes and bosses.

But we can also expand this comparison a little, introducing the Crossbow: a weapon with almost the same damage… wich can shoot without a delay, even in hipfire… still keeping the same Krub’s bow penetration.

And about penetration starts my suggest: in my opinion, since Empire bow is the weapon with the highest delay before to shoot (charge time), and since this isn’t “translated” in a “consistent” higher damage… I would like to give it more penetration (BUT only on full charged arrows).

In this way we could help it in its role of specials killer… without boost the power vs hordes (since vs hordes the meta is spam light arrows).

#7

Sadly wutelgi’s longbow is slighty better with rate of fire, and smooth zoom. Kruber’s bow has higher damage though, and for me it’s easier to kill CWs with it. Just two headshots, and if I pop career ability I can delete 4-5 CWs in a patrol, single headshot each, without aggroing the rest, which is a massive thing.

#8

@soul23 That’s a problem with a lot of ranged weapons and talents in general, not just elfbow. Comparing manbow to BH with Xbow will always make Manbow seem weaker as it doesn’t have the guaranteed crit to cushion poor play. Having a higher skill weapon in manbow is a good thing. IF you’re not good enough to use Manbow then go back to elfbow or BH Xbow, or even Zealot BoP. Manbow is the weapon that doesn’t need a crutch to make it good - just an excellent player.

Manbow is one of the top tier skill requirement ranged weapons and it should stay there. Some QoL would be nice but that’s a WHOLE other discussion, as whatever ranged zoom mechanics I like, You might not.

Manbow is awesome, it is one of my favourite weapons and so satisfying and rewarding like no other ranged weapon. If I’m successful it’s ME who is good, not some guaranteed crit, auto aim ult, or easier to use longbow or buffed ranged damage. IF you can’t play Manbow - go play something else that you do like. That’s the beauty of the classes and weapon choices in that there’s something for everyone.

Manbow doesn’t need changing, if anything Elfbow needs to NOT headshot everything and reduce the damage vs bosses. There’s another thread on the support classes and how it’s turned supposed melee classes into doing very well at ranged too.

The ranged meta isn’t so obvious but it’s always there - if you’re good at ranged with any class it boosts your success rate as you kill specials and elites faster.

TL;DR Manbow is great leave it alone other than some QoL with the zoom and the future BBB rework of HS.

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#9

TL;DR Manbow is great leave it alone other than some QoL with the zoom and the future BBB rework of HS.

I enjoy manbow, despite its many shortcomings. And it does have its strong points, mainly against superarmor and bosses. This is why the only change I really want is for it to be more accurate on the move, so that when you do commit to the much longer draw time compared to longbow or xbow, at least the arrow will go where you want it to. I feel like that’s fair for a headshot oriented weapon on a headshot oriented class.

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#10

Agree.

I’d actually like the static zoom to go further to make use of his double range so you can really tag things at the limit of draw distance - outshooting all others.

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#11

My biggest gripe with empire longbow is you get less accurate when you crouch, something not seen on any other bow/crossbow/ranged weapon.
(at least from what I have seen).

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#12

Instead of blatering gitgud reasons, did you read what I wrote?

I’m ok with an higher skill needed weapon… IF it gives a better reward. The dear, old "high risk, high reward.

Sadly this isn’t Emp Bow’s case… being good with a ranged weapon means to have a good aim and hit heads. Well, as wrote, Elf bow and Crossbow has the same headshot breakpoints as Emp Bow (rather they are even easier to reach, since quoted weapons are faster/more accurate).

The only exception are CWs… but it’s not enought as trade off

p.s I never talked about Blessed Shot, I was talking about weapons themself;
p.p.s another thing: Emp Bow, unlike Elf Bow, doesn’t automatically charge the arrow;

EDIT: seeing above comments, there is a great misunderstanding about what “an headshots based weapon” means. I have a lot of experience with fps, and I can assure you that it’s a weapon struggles a little until you can score a good headshots ratio… but, when you reached it, it becomes stronger than others, easier to use, weapons.

Paradoxically, Emp Bow’s case, is the opposite: one of its (few) advantages is about bodyshots (for example it can bodyshot a Packmaster, with a huge investment)… but, CWs apart, having a 100% headshots ratio with Emp Bow is less rewarding that having a 100% headshots ratio with Elf Bow (it’s enough to even think about its rof: higher rate of fire = nome headshots per minute).

#13

When it comes to how comfortable the Manbow is compared to elgis, he just straight up pulls the short straw. Elgibow instantly narrowing down the crosshair to a dot never makes me second guess where my arrow goes. Firing a fully charged arrow as soon as the Manbow is able to still features a crosshair thats all over the place.

Thats just nasty for a weapon that needs you to land headshots to pull ahead of the Repeater, which just always needs two shots for specials.

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#14

It’s not about git gud - it’s about having a wide range of weapons and careers for all kinds of people to enjoy playing.

I completely disagree that Manbow isn’t high risk high reward.

For the rarified atmosphere of people who are playing top tier difficulty then such things as you describe are probably true. BUT… we’re talking about the top 5% of players. No one cares about getting headshots as BH when they know they gonna crit. Elf bow is already easier to hit headshots.

I’m really not trying to just boil it down to “git gud scrub”.

My argument is this; BH is designed to help players out with guaranteed crits. Waystalker is a class designed to reward new players - health regen, auto aim ult, replenish ammo etc. HS is the next step up in that you have to guarantee your own crits. I think elf Longbow zoom is actually too nice in that it makes it easy. I agree though in that lorewise, a manbow should NOT be as good as an elf firing a bow.

Manbow CAN exceed BH and Elf bow but it’s a bit more effort . I think that bit more effort is worth it for the feeling that it is my own playstyle that pulls off the good run rather than free ammo/ults/health regen and so on.

#15

I can understand your point but in “gaming world”, generally, weapons are and have to be balanced around higher difficulties… I don’t think that balancing around hardest contents can reduce average player’s fun who plays mid difficulties… but also about lore, if we talk about a game like Vermintide, gameplay itself is more important than lore (indeed lore has been stretched more time in favor of gameplay’s sake).

Apart this I think that “high reward” part is missing… in fact Fatshark will rework him during next BBB… but I respect your opinion. I stop here, it was just to clarify

#16

It’s a possibility but a lot of people cried out to FS about not wanting a Huntsman rework, it’s not like he needs one anyway.

FS could simply change their mind and put their attention to other careers in need.

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#17

But it happens every time… there will always be happy and sad people about a change.

Honestly I think there are objective problems around Huntsman’s design, indeed Fatshark talked about this, not about players’ opinion (it’s important to notice that, even if players’ feedback is fundamental, decisions must be taken around facts and from developers’ mind).

Then you are free to think that there isn’t any “objective problem”… legit enough, don’t to be rude but, at least at this moment, I have no desire to say the same things, also because none convinces none.

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#18

What objective problems though?
RV, WS and BH all have bigger objective problems imo.

RV has problems regarding special scaling
WS kit is extremely bottle-necked
BH has pretty coaxed trait choices and is somewhat carried by Double Shotted

Huntsman just needs some tweaks, primarily to make headshots feel more rewarding and some more career skill talent diversity.
Maybe a little more accessibility through more balanced methods and kinda already exists with talents like Shot Crafter and Keep it Coming.

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#19

Its true that elfbow for one comes out a bit ahead in overall performance when compared to manbow, but it´s also necessary to consider abilities and talents as well.

Huntsman´s ability lets him do things with longbow that waystalker can only dream about, such as decimating multiple chaos warriors rapidly. Although waystalker does better against multiple lightly armored targets like stormvermin with her F but then we are on the subject of tradeoffs which i think is a fine thing.

Huntsman also has at least 2 rows worth of talents that directly enhance his shooting, keri has 1 with all 3 choice’s having pro´s&con’s…3 if we wana consider his final ult row as well since it affects the shooting very directly too. These lead to his boss damage being better if it´s the type that has a accessible head.

And if it doesnt? Elf wont use longbow to shoot a spawn if she pays mind about poor damage done for ammo spent. And her final ult row only actually has one option if she wants to shoot a lot, one that kinda demands she use it on ambient stormvermin or such all the time if she doesnt wana run out while bodyshotting.

#20

This is probably one of the most importants.

(but don’t get me wrong: I don’t mean give to him 26486519545 stacks of free headshots XD)

About this there would be a book to write, too many aspects to evaluate.

Under certain aspects, I agree with you: weapons’ balance is linked to careers’ balance… and I agree that HS can keep certain good sides (in fact I have never said that he’s a trash career)… But I still think that WS’ advantages > HS’ advantages.

Anyway HS has “design’s problems” that go beyond comparison with other careers and “better or worse” speeches.

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