[EMPIRE LONGBOW] Unhappy breakpoints

Did enough testing to say Huntman’s bow is just as mobile as Elf longbow , more versatile, safer to use in the midst of chaos because there is no quick switch delay after firing unlike Elf longbow.

Decreasing the heavy charge time might make it unbalanced, it’s a trade off. TBH it isn’t even that slow.
Does it matter other careers share the same breakpoints? His power comes from sustaining ammunition on headshots and getting other bonus’s from them such as crit chance, thp or reload speed.

His ult is great, you can 2 - 3 QUICK SHOT a CW, 1 quick shot headshot storm vermin or 1 shot body shot them, quickly dispose of packs of elites.

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Huntsman can outrange the BH with double the effective range of ranged weapons, although WS gets this too.

WS is clearly designed as the entry level ranged career for people to play, with health regen and ammo sustain other ranged careers can only dream of - so using the WS as something to compare everything else to is fairly weak argument - especially when you bring in the don’t look press F to kill specials ult…

I don’t think Manbow is slower, but there is a much higher degree of skill to draw and fire at different lengths. If people are always drawing to full stretch then yes, it’s slower but I think it has much more utility to it - like the beam staff has three different attacks - and knowing the different uses for the different draw lengths is part of the skill.

A good HS can outkill a good BH purely by killing things outside the effective range of the BH. I love playing HS and clearing threats from miles before anyone else even considers them. Bannerbois and hookrats are my personal favourites to make completely nullified before they’re in range of anyone else.

This is some of the change in playstyle people might not be prepared to make - leaving Melee to those classes that are good at it and doing exactly what HS is supposed to do, snipe all armoured and special threats long, long before they get close, and having some faith that your collegues will keep you safe by piling into melee.

I actually think HS with Longbow is a very strong career and can reduce the threat level of so much while it’s still out of range of everyone except the WS (which I’ve touched upon.) If you’re going to play HS in the same style as a BH you’re playing it wrong.

Threads keep popping up about the Longbow yet I think currently it’s in the best condition it’s ever been.

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Same.

I legit hated even touching huntsman for the longest time, but I think it was last month or something that I started trying him out again, with the new talents from WoM and the buffs to the longbow and such (plus the spear) and I just fell in love. He’s the fastest career I’ve gotten the black skin for.

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If I can be totally honest… there are some facts that go beyond opinions (for example breakpoints have been tested); anyway, apart this, I’m agree with you. It’s fine to have different opinions… I don’t want to convince you :slight_smile:

This is false for these reasons:

Have you read my post? I’m not asking this… as YOU said too, I’m asking for monster damage (to bodyshot packmaster).

This is true, but this happens thanks his ult. Also WS and BH have a very useful ult. For example WS can kill 4-5 SV in one second. Moreover they have Blessed and Bloodshot.

As said, it’s not enough to compensate Emp Bow’s lacknesses.

Moreover your video is pretty different from the real battlefield. Enemies move. Enemies attack you (if you don’t use the talent about invisibility, but you have only 6 seconds). Between SV there are shielded SV that block your arrows.

In the real battlefield you must to be able to use your ranged weapon and kill the target quickly in order to quickly return to your melee weapons.

The other video shows the high headshot damage… but, as said, also BH and WS can kill with 1headhot every special and every elite.

WS and BH have a better ammo regen.

Sure that matters °-°… slower and not stronger is a bad combination. Every weapons must have a niche.

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BH, thanks crit, can kill everything at every range.
And, as you said, WS too has double range.

These are opinions… the fact is that WS overshadows HS.

As said:

°-° BH has the same breakpoints vs them (or better when Blessed Shot is ready) with a faster weapon.

But as facts say Emp Bow is slower without better breakpoints… Crossbow and Elf Bow are better to fulfill this role.

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Movement speed penalty can be negated by hovering around mid charge, the time it takes to reach max charge isn’t that long as shown in the video.
The rate of fire is slower but in most situations it wont matter.
While elf bow can walk while aiming, it’s so slow and it reduces accuracy going against the point of “precision”
Empire bow plant doesn’t occur until a small delay after reaching max charge

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Are you surround by enemies and do you have a very little window to kill that special? With Elf Bow you can do it quickly because you reach the full charge sooner (and Crossbow hasn’t even a delay!)

Are you fighting an elite that needs two hits to be killed? With Elf Bow you can score those hits faster because the rate of fire is higher.

Saying that “Emp Bow isn’t so clunky” is a legit opinion… Saying that it’s fast as Elf Bow is a lie.

Anyway… Why are we still arguing? You said you would give to Emp Bow more penetration and monster damage… WE AGREE.

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I disagree, i played my only elf game of the year yesterday with a longbow and i switched to longbow to snipe a special when i was surrounded and the switch back delay got me killed. Also i hate the automatic zoom in on longbow not related iknow xd.

I think james is just not agreeing with your points on ‘slow weapon’ etc , but is agreeing with more monster dmg etc

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The more I think about it, the more unnecessary buffs seem.
Buffing damage for Storm Vermin breakpoints would just make Handgun even more obsolete.
Hook rat breakpoints already exist, 29.8% Monster/Skaven + enhanced power.

Just buffing the mass limit on heavy shots is reasonable.

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And you’d only be giving up the 2 shot BP on maulers, even then I don’t think that’s a particularly worthwhile breakpoint for the investment, Empire longbow can achieve many of these same BPs with much less investment in power versus, which does make its BPs better than crossbow or elf longbow because it frees up property slots and the stagger talent. If you wanted to drop enhanced power for BH/WS you’d lose important breakpoints such as OSBS Ratlings on crossbow (or crit BS maulers and OSHS bestigors), and longbow didn’t have OSBS Ratlings to begin with. (Not the same breakpoints on the longbows it would seem.)

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I don’t want to seem rude, but this is a your experience (maybe based on the lack of practice with WS) that can’t change the reality… Becuase you died due the delay (as you said)… and Emp Bow has a longer delay. It would be worse.

As already said:

If you reach 30% vs Packmaster you lose tons of breakpoints.

p.s I said nothing about SV. To me it’s enough what I wrote (and MAYBE, subsequently, Globadier… but step by step).

It’s not true. You would lose tons of breakpoints… for example vs hordes (wich are the ONLY Huntsman’s niche, the only “zone” where he’s stronger than BH and WS. And already Huntsman is heavily overshadowed). Or again you would lose important breakpoints if you want spam not charged arrows during ult (the only way to make the ult useful).
And you should lose also the breakpoint vs Beastgor… but I don’t remember so well in this moment.

As said I used the build the reach the highest number of breakpoints.

Even accounting for the edit mistake from kruber it would probably equal out to 2 seconds aswell, so i dont see how longbow is much faster.

And yes ofcourse i died to lack of experience because i never play longbow as i said.

I dont even play alot of huntsman or longbow but i just have to point out things that you claim are true but when i test them because im curious i get whole other results, like this for example.

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This is going to end up in a circular argument because there is so much more the the manbow/elfbow/xbow argument than breakpoints. If we only focus on Breakpoints then I think I should be able to clonk a CW over the head with a 1h sword the same as a 2h hammer because hammer has better breakpoints for CW.

Longbow for HS is just fine.

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In Elf clip you fired with a little bit of delay… maybe the difference it’s not so evident? Maybe, but it’s one only factor… as said, there are more reasons that explain because Elf Bow (and Crossbow) is faster and more versatile.
Moreover, about the delay, there is another factor. Using Elf Bow you can spam charged arrows without problems. You can’t do it wrong. While, using Emp Bow, you have to think about the precise moment to fire… otherwise you will shoot a mid charged arrow (if you click too soon) or, the opposite example, you will shoot too late and you will lose precious “seconds”).

Anyway, sorry again if I can seem arrogant, but more experience you have with these careers and more Huntsman’s problems become clear.

Indeed, as written, if we consider also other factors (for example who uses those weapons), Emp Bow becomes even more overshadowed. You know, Huntsman can’t have talents like Blessed Shot or Bloodshot.

Having played Hunty in Legend a fair bit, I have to say the SV body shot breakpoint is amazing. Considering that huntsman has crap for support (crit aura too small, 5% not a big boost anyway), and worse melee then Elf or BH, literally the only reason to bring him on a team is because he can rapidly murder many elites.

Considering how exposed stopping for a full charge makes you, and that it doesn’t work on shields, and the general weakness of Huntsman in other areas, I don’t see how it could be OP.

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Everyone is talking about “Oh, but you can three shot a CW on cata in the head with a manbow!” and totally misses the point.
Great. But noone cares about CWs. They arent the threat. Its Special you want to snipe when you get a glimps at them. Dodge back, quickswap, shoot, quickswap, get back in melee.

Waystalker can do that with every special on Cata thanks to Bloodshot. Bounty can do that thanks to inspired shot. Both with body shots and no rolls.
Huntsman isnt ever able to do that, unless he uses his ult, which is ready every sunday that falls on the 10th of a month.

Huntsman is in no way as reliable in killing the actual threats as his companions careers, unless you fear CWs more than specials(, in which case you still have career skills on both which kill a threatening CW instantly). His Headshot damage is really nice, but its a f_cking disaster about to happen when you miss the eye.

In the end, its much easier at the moment to deal with special with Knight, or Merc, since the Repeater will deal with specials quicker than the bow (two body shots, instead of two full charges, or three quick), while also having their career skill to get the room to do it plus the defensive and offensive values they already bring to the table.

If “One in the Eye” aka 50% Headshot damage qualifies the Huntsman as competitor for a backline career, WHC would like to have a word with you and this time not about the invitation to his order.

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No i didn’t fire with delay i was spam clicking… It’s super easy to learn when to shoot, ‘oh manbow has 3 charge states so it’s bad because you can shoot to fast’ like how?. Elf bow is easier to use and manbow needs more practice, how does it make it a bad bow? You keep saying more experience, and you keep saying it’s slower but i test it and it’s not, seeing if its faster or slower isnt’ about experience it either is or it isn’t. If someone doesn’t know the charge timings then it isn’t a weapon issue, you have to compare the 2 when they get played the way they are meant to otherwise the ‘easier’ to play careers will always be ‘better’,

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The ‘cw’ example was just to show the amount of damage he can do in comparison, sure you won’t always have your ult but it still an insane dmg boosting ult and can despose of threats really quickly when used.

You cannot compare whc to huntsman as they don’t fill the same roles, nobody said 50% headshot is better than whc passive + deathknell, it’s just saying he has it on range and on melee and the other ranged careers don’t, so it’s a consistent damage increase if you can headshot reliably with melee and range. From my understanding whc isn’t a backline career, ranged careers are considered backline, so Huntsman wouldnt fill whc shoes as a role, maybe you could frontline with spear and blunderbuss but i don’t think you see alot of Huntsman with 1h sword and bow Frontline.

  1. It’s very hard to test, since the difference ins’t so big. It’s not like test a breakpoint;

  2. Even if the delay was the same, Emp Bow is still less versatile due other factors (rate of fire, mobility, precision);

  3. I meant that to be very easy to use is a BIG advantage. None is perfect and Vermintide can put us in very stressful situations.
    More a weapon is easy and less you make errors.
    More a weapon is easy and more you can focus yourself on the target.

This! You get the point! Totally agree.

Moreover I want to add three things:

  • Often, during an horde, you haven’t the time to score three headshots to a CW;
  • During certain animations CW hides his head;
  • We could also consider the power vs CW an Huntsman’s advantage… The problem is that it’s not enough to compensate the disadvantages!

Even because, at Cataclysm, Huntsman loses his power vs elites (for example the breakpoint vs SV is impossible also with +40% skavan/armour).

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Precision you can get used to by getting used to the arc, and it has to be like far when you start noticing it.

Moblity is the same, or miniscule difference.

Rate of fire, sure, its like a 1.1-1.2 sec per arrow on full charge manbow and 1sec on longbow, the longer you spam the moreyou notice the difference, otherwise u barely notice. (outside of ult). On quickshots they are the same rate of fire.

Quickswitch is the same, if you have an arrow loaded.

Yes longbow is easier to use, elf in general is easier to use. If we compare ws to huntsman everything he has is gonna be bad. Just comparing bows its really not that much difference, yes you have to learn the different charge states, but a huntsman who is used to it doesnt even notice it, its like saying a bolt is bad because it has different charge states or beam, and you can mess up when you fight a horde + boss, which like doesnt happen unless you get running attacked or you arent to familiar with them.

I’m pretty sure you can oneshot body sv with whc tag. I know you are gonna respond ‘but qp doesnt always have a whc’ that’s true but you can reach it and it’s not that much effort. Back when handgun was super strong you could reach a body bp with whc tag so you could switch around.

I’ve seen some people say his ult is on a long cooldown. Thats not even true, its 90 seconds and you you reduce it to what 81 with cdr property and using spear you get 0.3 seconds per enemy hit so its like super quick, not 90 seconds at all.

Cw hiding his head is annoying on every hs career, doesnt only apply to huntsman.
If the cw is on you it’s hard to hit headshots, true. But when you have frontlines its rlly not that difficult or you ult and bait your teammates xd

So way more single target power isnt worth the super miniscule disadvantages you barely notice?

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