There is variance, surely. I think the presented ranges are acceptable; Some runs are easier than others, while some are harder. For example I think the chance of 0-2 minibosses keeps things interesting, because you have to stay on your toes until the end of the map for a new one. For your average PUGger the play experience is probably similar to other PUGgers, because unless you play in a group the queue decides if you host or not.
Ergo statements like (not yours, I know, but you did agree with it)
Since there seems to be a lot of variance from system to system, I think there’s strong evidence to suggest that people crying “git gud” are probably on director ezmode themselves right now, without even realizing it.
likely don’t hold water, because most of the time your average player is playing in a game someone else hosts (assuming each of the 4 players has an equal chance to host).
“Some Variance” would be like… 300 kills in one game and 400 kills in another… or 40 specials in one game… 50 specials in another… that is “some variance”…
250 kills in ONE game vs 500+ kills, and 30 specials in one vs 60-80 in another isn’t “some variance” its drastic out of control disparity…
It means one is faceroll easy and the other is super onslaught mode near impossible difficulty.
This needs to be reigned in. if we’re talking this kind of variance then the total number of specials for that map need a hard cap of 45 with a variance of + or - 5. That would be “some variance”.
Eh, agree to disagree. Not going to start arguing what is “some variance” means in this context. Besides I don’t view 200 extra kills necessarily an added difficulty; Quality and timing matters. A solo pink rat horde is essentially a bunch of running temp health pots in a lot of spots.
Just wanted to drop in and say arguing that all people arguing against your position (or the person’s you quoted) “must be playing the easy version of the game” is bullshit that tries to baselessly discredit people’s opinions.
BUT… you do agree that 30 specials in one game on the same map vs 60-80 specials isn’t just “some variance” and does add an extreme level of difficulty to some vs others, while some are playing faceroll easy mode.
It needs to be reigned in.
While I will agree with you generalizing that “all people against this position must be playing an easy version of the game” is just that… a generalization.
The opposite… “gitgud” opinion is doing the same.
There IS a disparity in the AI director at present making the game faceroll easy for some, and super onslaught mode impossible for others.
This does need to be reigned in and brought to more middle ground.
I was just playing Righteous Stand where a Stormbringer spawned on the other side of the wall you blow up with the cannon (through two walls actually) and summoned a storm on us when we were standing waiting for the cannon on the platform to lower.
That was my worst case scenario in 1.0.5 as well. I’d say these take a “normal” time but that wouldn’t convey much since other peoples’ games are still “1.0.5 normal,” even in deeds (and every run I have now is “worse” than any deed). I can explain it best like this:
These are always full book runs
We never stop/rest for hordes except to briefly assess a horde to determine whether or not it’s a “stay safe” horde or a “we don’t have time for this bs, push ahead” horde, though, tbh, we all already know exactly which is which without having to stop or slow down. There are a few rare instances where a horde will mandate we back tf up to not get surrounded in a tactically disadvantageous position but that doesn’t have to happen often.
The only time we’re not pushing ahead is if we’re about to hit a boss trigger when a horde is due. Usually only means a handful of non-productive seconds but the tradeoff is we aren’t committing suicide by rushing a boss + 2x horde + specials + w/e ambient trash the rooms ahead have in store for us.
This is with me vaporizing waves faster than they spawn. Even then, we’d sometimes get another horde within seconds of clearing the first.
The horde timers are utterly fubar most of the time. Eg. we’ll sometimes get a horn right at the start of the level, silent hordes w/o music or horn, a horde + a second horde moments later, etc.
Elite spawns are sometimes messed up as well. On one War Camp run, we had over 12 non-patrol Chaos Warriors + a patrol + a ton of doubled up specials all just in the lil ravine at the very start of the level well before the open area that branches off to the first tome. It was basically as though the deed that upgrades ambient mods was active + on crack.
It feels like the director is randomly applying three different deed effects every time from a pool that includes more hordes/bigger hordes/more specials/upgraded ambients.
This is just how my games behave. I don’t think it has to do entirely with hosting. It’s bad enough though that I am obligated to always be on a class that excels at wave/special clear because, if I’m not, then the levels will take longer and we just won’t win.
Nope, I’m just hyper-aggressive without being reckless and, as mentioned, choose classes that excel at wave/special removal specifically to offset the director’s rage hard-on. These runs aren’t made artificially long and we, in fact, will surge through any linear horde, by necessity. When this is how the director behaves every time, you have to know how to go as fast as possible. This is just how insane the director is and different characters will outshine others in different situations. In this situation, where the director is throwing non-stop hordes at you, Sienna > Bardin > WS >/= BH should always be the hierarchy of kill/dmg by virtue of how effectively they can kill hordes at range. If we had gotten more Rot Helms/bosses, the Shade would have been a stronger shower, for example. In this case, the only other person with true horde clear was the Bardin but he was using Drake Gun, not Pistols, so he intrinsically couldn’t do fire + movement as effectively when we were pushing through non-stop waves and if we were stationary, most things would be dead before they reached his flames or we would just push up, meaning the Bardin had to relocated, at which point we’d be pushing up again, and so on.
That’s what 99% of my scorecards look like, regardless of players/comp. Here’s the bigger picture of how my game changed from 1.0.5 to 1.0.6, for example. I’m not a green circle hunter, but I do try to always do my best and if I don’t have as many kills as the rest of the team combined, I feel like I’ve let the team down. Was the same when I was leveling, though to a lesser degree given the lower hero power and the fact I wasn’t rolling perfect stats on w/e trash gear I was using at the time. Most characters are capable of something like this. The IB in my earlier post-1.0.6 case was using a Drake Gun instead of DF Pistols, so they were effective but not as effective as they would have been with Pistols in this situation, where they could have done better damage on the move. It wouldn’t affect the speed, however, since I’m still melting everything just as fast… they’d just have been able to “steal” more kills away. No matter what their scores were, I’m still murdering everything the instant it spawns. The speed would be unchanged, they’d just be having their killshots land a few ms before instead of the other way around.
There’s really no need for you to attempt to armchair quarterback this. I’m a V1 veteran, pretty much only play on legend now, have both games completed, and know exactly what I’m doing in both. This isn’t a case of “hurrdurr we fell asleep in the level for 40min without moving.” Further, this isn’t an isolated incident and it happens every time, with different people. People just tend not to be able kill things when you’ve vaporized them a few ms faster than they can, regardless of what character you’re doing it on. Since these are the results I get virtually every single time I play, you’re calling everyone I’ve ever played with, friends or pug, scrubs, which I assure you isn’t the case.
This Bardin was extremely aggressive, but you can only be so aggressive with Drake Gun unless your team sits back and lets you kill everything. Since he was aggressive, it enabled me to be more aggressive, which meant I wasn’t just sitting back or feeding him kills, and we were able to clear faster. Drake Gun just makes you plant your ass. Any character/weapon that can horde clear while moving will outshine it in a fast-paced run unless the entire group turtles for the dwarf.
I used to think it was related to host but now I’m not so sure, because even in 1.0.5 (when my games were normal) it would sometimes happen when someone new joined me while I was hosting. Eg. We’d have nothing but normal games for 10hrs, then someone would get tired and leave, a new person would join, and the director would go bananas. Then they’d leave and someone else would join and director behaviour would change again. The shifts in behaviour were palpable. Now, the same thing seems to be happening to me. Anyone who can’t relate seems to still be on “normal” director behaviour and their game is “ez mode” by comparison. That’s not an insult but rather an observation of that simple fact that if some people are still getting <60 specials/run and <1k mobs while other are consistently getting twice that amount, the one director behaviour is harder than the other to deal with.
Also, I don’t know how you’re claiming your PC has no effect when one of the biggest fixes from 1.0.6 was them supposedly correcting the fact that someone could become deed contaminated and infect any game they joined. What’s happening to some of us now is like that, only it just seems to always happen, whether or not someone is deed contaminated. Some people just seem to be like Typhoid Mary to the AI director.
EZ relative to the people who went from having normal runs to suddenly getting 100 specials per run. It’s considerably less bullshit than than people baselessly trying to discredit those who are pointing out their games went totally haywire after 1.0.6, accusing them of being just too passive. It’s an outright stupid argument: If the issue was that they were too passive, they’d be having the same problem before 1.0.6. No one suddenly said, “oh boy, 1.0.6 is here so I better totally change my playstyle to be a massive turtling pansy!” There is zero logic to that argument whatsoever, no matter what angle you’re looking at it from.
Unlike the “git gud” bs, which is rude, irrelevant, and illogical, the ezmode comparison is an apt one. If someone is shouting “git gud” but their game didn’t suddenly go from normal runs to “every run is a multi-deed and then some,” they’re not facing nearly the challenge they think they are, or could be.
Nah, i will continue to do some champions pugb, is fun and rather relaxing. I will avoid legendary runs because i simply can’t complete in pugb, i’m not a really skilled player but i have a fair experience in V1 and V2, but actually legend is simply broken, unfair and frustrating.
Valid points but not in my wildest games have i been close to those numbers and i sometimes play with dudes with very strong rigs so thats not the case, i can send you a screen of one of my more bloated screens from hungering grounds. Horde numbers sure but those specials reek of a deed bug gone awry.
I believe you. Everyone’s spawn rates are totally out of sync right now. My rig is pretty beefy but it was fine before 1.0.6 and other ppl with beefy rigs seem fine. Seems totally random. Hard/impossible to nail down whatever factors are causing it w/o knowing the code.
I see this stuff too. Just today I was playing pubs with 2 premade + 2 pubs (I was one of the pubs) we did 3-4 missions like that, it was all super easy and I was like oh these guys are decent, I’ll stay with them.
Then the other pub left and a new one joined, and suddenly we get the kind of horde frequency and special spawns I’m used to, in other words insane. (and those guys I had thought were good dropped like flies, but that’s beside the point).
I have no idea how or why this is happening, if it really is tied to certain hosts/clients, certain classes or if it is just pure RNG. If it is pure RNG you’d expect it to happen to everyone, but then again, just like the RNG for reds/cosmetics, pure RNG is never as simple as you think in terms of distribution. Legend sometimes feel like a cakewalk with good teammates, and sometimes it’s just pure insane unfun frustration.
Sadly for me I very, very often get the insane spawns.
It certainly seems like it can’t be just raw RNG, imo. After the patch, I’ve only gotten this behaviour. Before the patch, I only got “normal” / ezmode behaviour. The “git gud” crowd seems to have not experienced any tangible or noteworthy change from 1.0.5 to 1.0.6.
That being said, even if it is just pure RNG and some people are getting non-stop lucky and others are getting non-stop unlucky, that’s a huge issue that needs to be addressed. It feels a lot like deed contamination did, only worse, and it doesn’t go away when we reset the game.
As promised, this isn’t a too uncommon leg run for me in regards to quickplay BUT, the boss damage is very bloated since 2 chaos trolls and i had to solo them both.
Hunger in the dark, Leg - Dual daggers / Longbow
My stats stem from the 3 others just not being very effective bar blocking, so it worked out fine shrug
The specials and elites werent THAT numerous the infantry on the other hand:s
I’m honestly VERY curious about how tha AI director works or the ambient algorithm is, because doing quickplay without a chest in the start area like in VT1 promotes stable builds that has to deal with ‘‘anything’’
I honestly know too little about the intricacies for that BUT, 5 crit / 5 AS on DD is fairly decent and scales fairly well for them, since 600 power and 10% power from charm will be enough to one hit most infantry or atleast stagger. 75% backstab talent and 10% chaos power will oneshot chaos warriors with a stealth power attack on ALL difficulties except for deeds, you probably wont even need the 75% talent.
currently my daggers are 9% skaven and 4.8% AS, they’re far from optimal but i’m without greendust and no red daggers to feel comfortable going for 5/5.
Yeah that looks about like what I’d consider normal pre-1.0.6. That was post-update right? What was the total kill count? I’d expect the overall kill count to be slightly increased with their increased skaven hordes note but haven’t seen a run remotely close to normal since the patch. Note: This was also a factor in why it took so long to diagnose, because they said increased spawns and 2-3x the kills was technically an increase haha
I’d like to know a bit more about how the director’s programmed as well. It doesn’t currently feel like raw rng but it’s still messed up that there’s such a huge disparity for some people post-patch.
