I am not sure thats such a good comparison considering that Diablo/PoE are both in a very different game genre compared to DT and are more loot grind driven as well.
Yea I mean I see your guyās point and I agreeā¦.i wish I could just use whatever I wanted.
Butā¦
This game is very much like an ARPG, especially now that they got toned down POE skill trees. Itās like a FPS had a baby with D4/POE but they just donāt have any content yet lol
Probably why I love this gameā¦it has all the fun aspects of an action rpg now and way less of the grindy nonsense that POE has.
Breaking the locks actually makes the gambling a little less relevant, which is a very good thing.
I would probably prefer more balanced blessings then a smaller pool.
But I suppose I see your point.
The point still stands that I consider new marks of a weapon type sharing existing unlocks easier to get than entirely new weapons, but itās somewhat of a moot point if thereās no chance the new marks will make good use of different blessings if some are just better than others.
Break Locks AND introduce NEW WEAPONS. Not New MkĀ“s alone!
I have my friends playing a lot of co-op games with me, including VT2 or DRG. But nobody stick to Darktide becasue of crafting system. Itās a waste of time, waste of effort and itās simple discouraging. How do you think normal person feels after grinding for days for money and crafting mats just to get BIG MIDDLE FINGER FROM FATSHARK and not getting any great roll on weapon he wanted, not getting perks he wanted, not even getting ONE of the Blessings he needed for that weapon?
What kind of idiot thought that this player will think āWOW! I spent so much time working towards this and I got nothing! This is so awesome! This way I can play forever and never get anything out of it! All my work and I get no reward! Best system ever!ā
Seriously, what kind of out of Earth state of mind you need to have to think that this will IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM encourage players to play more instead of saying āFK this! This is waste of time!ā.
Reward is one of the most important things you need in video game to make new players stick. They play, they earn, they spend, they get new toys to play. If you design your āend gameā (yea, END is good word) around: spend time->earn->spend->get nothing then how the hell you expect new players to stick around?
Not to mention that letās even say that finally, finally you get that ONE weapon with perfect perks and perfect 2 Blessings. You are overjoyed, you have dopamine rush with āmaybe this system is not that bad!ā
Then a month later there is ābalanceā Patch from Fatshark and your Blessings are now dog poop or just straight up worse than other Blessings (welcome to ālIfE sERviCeā games). Ok, then maybe change them to different Blessings? TOUGH LUCK BOY - Locks! trololololo!
Grind again, sheep!
What kind of dumb potato thought this will increase player retention instead of decreasing it. Itās BIZZARE.
Yea I mean I agree the crafting system needs a revamp but I get why they are doing it. I honestly donāt think they have the content load enough to keep people engaged yet. There needs to be a LOT more content for people to grind to be able to take crafting and make it non-grindy.
If you get the weapon you want, you will get bored after a week and want to try something different. At least, thatās kinda how I am. So they need the content load to be able to accommodate that and they just donāt yet.
Not defending them, but I think I can empathize why it is the way it is. Itāll 100% get better eventually (hopefully soon) but Iād bet not before we get a new mode/enemies,maps/missions to grind on
Yeah, I would like that. I was bored of my Evis+Boltgun on Zealot (the only two 370+ weapons I have with good perks and great Blessings combos).
So I spent 5 days gathering money and mats to try to craft myself either good Heavy Blade or Combat Blade.
I spent everything and I got not even one good 370+ weapon out of it and NOT even ONE Blessing I needed out of 4 Blessings I need for both of those weapons to get good weapon setup. Not even mentioning 2x perk combo.
So tell me how am I supposed to get bored with new weapon if I canāt even craft the one I want to have fun with in first place on different build/setup? And we are talking only about 2-3 weapons out of dozens among 4 classes. Itās impossible statistically to get all of them with setups I want to try out with current crafting system. Game doesnāt even allow me to get bored with new weaponā¦
Also, week is exaggerated. I still only play with S&M and Executioner Sword on my Grail Knight in VT2 and didnāt get bored with them even after 2,5k hours in VT2. But I didnāt have to waste my time grinding on them and I can change them to anything else any time I want.
Yea I hear ya man. Itās definitely frustrating.
Idk I just be getting really lucky I guess or you are exaggerating?
I usually play 2-3 rounds, get like 100-150k then spam whites to get 360+, then craft it to orange. I got 3 classes pretty much maxed out and I donāt remember feeling frustrated with the length of time to get there? I hi k it took 2-3 tries each class?
But yea it could certainly be less rng based especially since you might just be an outlier and that isnāt fair/sucks for you
Iām not opposed to a grind, Iāve got 1500 hours in the game. I just wish it was a grind and not an RNG fest.
Yea rng sucks big time.
I come from the ARPG genre so I guess Iām just numb to it by now lol
Itās easily the worst thing about games and the reason I left PoE tbh
First of all when it comes to RNG, itās pure statistic. You canāt say āI am lucky, you are exaggeratingā as this is not how statistic works.
For example: if you roll D100 dice, and there is only 1% chance you will roll X number. However, its absolutely possible that someone would make 100 rolls and never see that number and statistically (not matter how low % that is) itās absolutely possible for someone to roll it 100 times and see 100x same number. Yes, itās like 1 per 10,000,000 chance but statistically itās possible. Thatās why RNG sucks. You can say to someone āyou have 5% chance to drop X weaponā and he can make 200 runs/kills and never see it. Another one will see it on first kill/run. Thatās why RNG is pure garbage.
So when it comes to RNG, you can see person burn 1 million and never see roll above 340. Itās statistically possible. Hell, you said you got 360+. So thatās not even 370+. Hell, you totally ignore all other parts of RNG:
- Getting 360+/370+ weapon is ONE layer of RNG
- Second part of RNG is getting high and low rolls where it matters. So 370 weapon with 55% in Damage and 80% in mobility is garbage. So thatās second layer of RNG
- Next we have Perks. You need at least one perk to be good becasue you can change only second one. Thatās third layer or RNG. Or get both perks you wanted, which is even less probable.
- That one perk being maxed out. Thatās 4th layer of RNG
- Now we are at Blessings. You need at least ONE Blessing on that weapon to be one of the good ones for that weapons, TIII or TIV becasue you can reroll only one Blessing. Thatās 5th layer of RNG. And if you want that Blessing to be in you library - though luck, you need to roll it/find it again.
- Now we need to find the other (or both if by miracle we got both good perks on weapon so we donāt need to reroll perk) Blessing. Thatās 6th Layer of RNG
- To Get that Blessing we have only 3 options:
A) Random End Mission drop: Thatās RNG with RNGs inside (to be weapon you want, to be rarity you need to get TIII/TIV version). Thatās even more RNG than the whole process here.
B) Upgrading X weapon units to Yellow in hope we will get it: Thatās RNG . I upgraded for example over 10+ Combat Blades and all I was getting is same TIII Blessing. Why? Beacause itās RNG and itās statistically possible
C) Melk, who is AGAIN: Pure RNG to (like in A) even get weapon you need with rarity you need and Blessing on top. And thatās once per 24hā¦
D) as reminder - Blessings (even if they are the same) AR PER WEAPON VARIANT. So thatās another garbage on top of garbage.
Letās be generous and call whole 7 a one layer of RNG instead of additional 3. So we have total 7 (SEVEN) layers of RNG to get good weapon with great Blessings setups.
Now letās multiple that per every weapon in game, where same weapons arenāt even shared among classes that share them. So we need double Revolvers for both Zealot and Veteran for example.
See where this is going? I didnāt exaggerate at all. I was underplaying it anyway.
A weapon with combo of X and Y blessing is vastly superior to same weapon with random Blessings. For example: Eviscerator with Savage Sweep III/IV + Bloodthirsty or Rampage III/IV is vastly superior weapon over Eviscerator with Rev it Up and Bloodletter (especially if one is TII lol). Some weapons (like many lasguns) are āmake or breakā by certain Blessing combos, being useless without them and suddenly awesome with certain Blessings.
The whole system is hot garbage.
I said either I am lucky OR you are exaggerating. As in, your experience is better than you remember.
Iām just saying itās weird that my experience is vastly differant than yours, but maybe to your pointā¦.the rng may not be equally weighted( as in there is a bell curve) where most rolls of the dice are weighted to be a certain range of numbers. I know Darktide does that, but it clearly doesnāt do it good enough lol
But yea I agree with you. If they want to keep their current slow machine the way it is, I think they should skew the slot machine to only roll 360+ when you are 30 and you should be able to reroll or something 2/6 attributes to 80? Also double or triple the material gain to allow for my tries. Thatād keep the rng āgrindā, but vastly improve our experience is think?
No, I think the whole RNG shuold be scrapped. Let us earn money and craft mats and introduce system where I can pay X amount, spend X amount and I get what I was working towards. I can grind 5 days to get single Blessing. Fine. But after that 5 days I want to get that X Blessing. This way I feel like it was worth the effort, I can setup new goal and grind another 5 days.
RNG is garbage progression.
Yea it is but all games do it now. I think gaming companies know if you introduce that rng grindy mechanics, it keeps players hooked on for longer. Itās like gambling. You will play more hoping you hit the jackpot around the corner. It sucks since we clearly donāt want to gamble, but we are forced to just to play the gameš©
Iām just saying I donāt think its going away for any game until they figure out how to keep players engaged without itā¦so letās come up with solutions that work within the slot machine
And to your example, I think that is a reasonable expectation and they could do that probably using my example as well. If they can skew the numbers so that bell curve is ā2-4 hours of grindingā with 1% of players being outliersā¦that might be fair?
No. We all know gotcha and slot machine system is garbage so why would we come with solution to that that alligns with it? Thatās stupid. Bad things should be removed, not cater to.
The problem of keeping players hooked is that Fatshark is stupid and doesnāt believe in their own gameplay. Let me give you examples.
Steam Charts show that in last 10 months from October 2023 going down Darktide barely could have 2K players per day on average, sometimes struggles to get 1,5k. Thats with all RNG. Game exploded on October 2023 to 16k players. Why? Nothing changed in RNG. What changes was introducition of talents, talents improvements, gameplay changes, class gameplay variety in powers/styles and polish. Nobody cared about RNG. Game finally came out of beta state. Year after release.
In the same 10 months Deep Rock Galactic who has minimal RNG progression (only Overlocks but once you get X overlocks its going away from possibilities so it takes steady time doing deep dives to get them all) and majority of progression is through free Seasons that introduce in-game earn skins and cosmetics that you earn by accumulating points for Season to finish it. In that 10 months DRG had betwee 12-20k players per day on average.
Left 4 Dead 2 has over 20-30k in last 10 months (Since October 23). No RNG progression. Pure gameplay.
PayDay easy 20-30k players. No BS progression. I could go with more co-op games that donāt need that. Itās GAMEPLAY that matters. GAMEPLAY.
What killed Darktide players count was:
- Garbage state of the game on release. No content, gargabe talents, broken promises, backpedaling from what they promised, lack of features, bugs, horrible performance.
- Horrible communication (lack of it) despite all the issues and big hype on the game. For MONTHS!
- Slow as hell patch releases
- But despite of all that - they had balls to introduce in their game in that state: A PREMIUM CURRENCY (which is only to scam people to spend more $ on cosmetics than they need becasue of premium currency bundles. We still didnāt get 100 auries pack. Obviously to keep scam going) store with FOMO timer on cosmetics while giving players garbage hobo-like cloths to grind penances for (and penances were broken on many levels on release too). Hell, even premium cosmetics had clipping textures issues on release! And then their CEO lying his ass off saying āwe forgot to add 2100 auries packā, which obviously they didnāt. Itās a scam like all premium currency stores.
The game doesnāt need RNG to keep players base. It needs to get rid off it now when they managed to get some players back thanks to gameplay update and that will keep players hooked. RNG crafting is what will make those new players dissapear once honey moon period ends and they hit RNG wall.
Game wouldnāt need any serious help right now if they didnāt botch release and didnāt introduce mobile gaming gotcha RNG mechanics on top of mobile gaming premium currency store.
And no, not all games do that. Actually most successfull PC games donāt do that. Becasue they donāt need to. Good game will be played. Bad ones wonāt be saved by RNG anyway.
Yea I agree with you.
I think Iām either making my point horribly or you are misunderstanding me.
I would rather no rng, but I donāt think they can or want to right now because of the lack of content.
All those games you listed have HUGE content loads. LFD2 has an amazing mod community, DRG has seasons, etcā¦
Seasons would be amazing in DT but they just havenāt done it yet. We need content before they stop the silly slot machine I think? Itās just speculation, but I guarantee you theyāve talked about it extensively and I bet you next year with a huge push of content they will get rid of the rng significantly . Just my 2 centsš¤·āāļø
We have enough gameplay content to keep going for few months at least, especially for new players. The sheer amount of builds that now we have, weapons that can combo with that (under condition there is no RNG so players can ACTUALLY TRY STUFF OUT) and different Blessings + Auric. Itās enough content for release of the game. Becasue thatās what it is right now. Release of full game.
What you need now is simple steady NUMERIC progression. For example (numbers are just random): lets say you need 3-4k Contract Points to buy single TIV Blessing from Melk, who nows sells Blessings. Thatās a week/two of playing from new player just to get One blessing for one weapon. Lets say you need X Diamentite to upgrade stats on your weapons to 80%. Thatās some time of getting that and max out your weapon. X amount of Plasteel for upgrading. X amount of Diamentite to change perk/blessings on weapon (no locks). That would give you another months of steady progression. Sure, some already have thousands of all of that, but you want new players now after you killed playerbase on release. Veterans sticked anyway even if you tanked your playerbase to barely 1,5k average. Focus on making new player experience good becasue thatās what this game needs now.
In that time they can easy introduce new weapons and at least 2-3 new maps, especially considering many maps are recycles of same maps just going from different direction now.
As for mod support? What stops them? Nothing.
Also they should remove premium currency, introduce just normal $ prices and make all cosmetics so far released available to purchase in store as catalogue like in VT2 and get rid of FOMO. But I donāt think their Chinese overlords from Tencent would allow that.
Upgrading X weapon units to Yellow in hope we will get it: Thatās RNG . I upgraded for example over 10+ Combat Blades and all I was getting is same TIII Blessing. Why? Beacause itās RNG and itās statistically possible
ohhhhh this hurts my heart every time I read it. T4 blessings drop on blue now for high PL items! Itās so not worth it to upgrade to orange if youāre just fishing for blessings.
What does PL mean? Anyways, thanks I did not know that. So buy white, spam to blue and sell. Check!