Why is Shield Ogryn Hated?

Ok, I changed my mind. I had few damnation games with few shield ogryns…and frankly I rather NOT have them. Damage output on that thing is awful, enemies get constantly thrown behind you and the shield obstracts view for your teammates. Thanks, but no thanks. That thing is terrible.

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I’m currently using the butcher knife and MK5 ripper. It works great (have to work out unshielding the bulwarks but I’ll get there) but the MK5 does not have the range of the stubbed. I tried GG and I see the charm, especially if you have ammo regen from the marksmen.

Just because some things are situational does not mean that the rest is useless.

But look, I have been running with more DPS-oriented builds and I get why we are having this discussion. With the shield I keep things on the ground much more, but the DPS is bad.

I’m not that guy. I have many faults, but I’m not that guy.

All weapons can be used incorrectly.

Ahh :(. Good thing I’m moving on to more high-DPS options. It’s not really because of the hate (I have only seen it in one single run) but rather because I don’t like being a one-trick pony.

Which other weapon enables the „i do nothing at all“ playstyle?
Which other weapon enables any playstyle that is completely pointless and includes dealing no damage at all?

No other weapon allows you to be nearly as inactive as the shield does.

I don’t know, maybe there are some players who make it work, but so far today I ran into a guy who kept spamming light attacks, lost 90% of HP in matter of minutes threw mobs under our feet and behind us, and kept obstructing my view. Then we got a guy who would rush into groups and just stand there with the shield deployed :joy: Ah yeah, he also purposfuly pulled the demon host and stood there in a corner whilst we went through two horde waves, no one except me was that interested in helping him out. Looking at the move set the heavies are the way to go, but honestly there are just better options for CC and damage at the same time.

well the bullwark opens himself up after attack, where you can get an attack in yourself, usually takes ages to kill them that way, but as an ogryn you have the advantage that you often get highstagger
push attacks (like the uppercut) hit him with one and he should recoil.
problem arises when he is mixxed with trash or worst case another bullwark

Deflector force sword permablock.

Terrible knife zealots that really want to stab carapace for some reason

Just the first things that come to mind which I’ve seen. But trust me, you can be worthless with any weapon. I have witnessed a vet with a fkin power sword get killed by 3 poxwalkers.

Skill > weapon any day

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well you still have to separate the player, from the weapon, the weapon enables playstyles that aren’t that useful but that doesn’t mean every shield user plays like that.

And why do you tell me this obvious fact?

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Yeah if you insist on just standing there maybe, but overall with right build you can do serious damage with a force sword and carry/clutch. I tried Deflector and except few situations, its just better to use the infinite dodges on the FS to slide out of the ranged fire. You see more and move faster. The Ogryn’s shield is just…bad.

I’d take a dead teammate over some of the shield ogryns I’ve seen. At least they are dead and not an active detriment to the whole team.

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? Knive Zealot can kill a Crusher within 1,5 seconds. 2-3 heavy attacks into the neck and it’s done.

I’ve run into one competent shield ogryn. He could have done way more with any other adequate weapon. But at least he was not literally a burden since he didn’t go down and had good target priority.

Here’s another example scoreboard. You would think with this much “defense” we might not kill that much but there’d be no damage taken. Instead you can see the ogryns both took huge damage. I suspect this is because they either do not understan dodges and slides or the shield gimps these. Both of the two were down roughly every fight. The midpoint was an unholy slog that took forever. Which is to say i had a very fun game. But the ogryn were not helpful. It was mostly me and the other zealot dealing with specials and elites. Not just to kill them but to remove them from friendlies. No offense to any of the players, we won and had a fun time doing it. But it was a slog. To be clear my damage taken value is pretty typical for a competent player as far as i can see. Psykers, ogryn, vets, all land around 1k or less in a typical hi-int damnation game. This means the shieldgryn are taking 3-4x the damage.

thats the thing a competent player doesn’t look at the shield and goes, “yep this thing is for defense”
ofc comparatively its more defensive but it also has incredible stagger, and stagger is both an defensive but also offensive property

in v2 shields where also considered more of a “noob” weapon but a competent player picked one they wouldn’t just sit there blocking things, you’d be pushing things around and spam your infinite hitmass shieldbash into dense crowds to control them. that allows you to control the engagement and seize initiative and have a constant output, where other weapons required more reactive play.

now i get that the shield here in DT is quite different, it feels slower and the attackpattern is somewhat worse to the best v2 shields but the stagger still matters.
i think the general worse perception mainly comes from differences of V2 and DT, as melee enemies in DT are less threatening
and with ranged enemies being a thing you may be lured into suboptimal plays simply by having the option to block ranged fire
might cause players to actually block instead of trying to deal with the threat either by rushing in and controlling them or just shooting back.

There is STAGGER and there is stagger. A surge staff applies STAGGER. The armored targets that get hit can not move and are easy targets for a short time.
And then there is shield bash stagger. That’s when 3 or 5 enemies per hit get knocked of their feet and scattered around the Ogryn and the rest of the team. While they lay down, they will not get hit most of the time. And when they stand up, they hit you in the back. I’d rather take them face on and from 1 direction, then have to deal with them after they got ‘‘staggered’’ by a combat shield.

I don’t have this problem. The problem i have is not being able to see what is dead and what is alive and living enemies laying down block movement and dodges.

I know that. But shieldgryn do not. And, in most cases, they seem to fail when they try to be aggressive. I do not know if thats a weapon issue or not. Like bad dodge distance or whatever. Or just psychological crutch gameplay dissincentivizing good technique. But either way all it does is stagger with no damage value.

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well i agree that most players don’t realize, and i haven’t played ogryn much to know for certain that it isn’t the weapon, but that has little to do with the maximum Potential.

imo comparing two weapons from 2 different characters in of two different type, makes little sense, as the opportunity costs are entirely different.

an ogryn not equiping a more lethal weapon might still be almost equally valueable in fullfilling ALL his roles

where as a psyker equiping a surge staff very much has to choose what he is specializing in.
soo meh, sure surge does it better but it also kinda should be like that?

The shield forces you to be passive because you literally need max mobility roll for 2.0/s Stamina consumption sprint efficiency. This is like 50-60% worse than the rest, but bully and shovel have 10.0 stamina and the knives have faster move speed on high mobility too. You tank your own bar just trying to run up to a shooter 10ft away.

Push attack also has weird delay after animation despite being lifted from VT2. This good move you will almost never have access to when your team is moving and you’re actually melee’ing, because the high mobility axes and knives/swords leave you 2 rooms behind if you aren’t constantly tanking stamina trying to keep up.

I did put the shield through its paces and that is an absolutely massive problem just buffing its damage would leave in tact. Its sprint cost is too high, and they should apply VT2 style buffs to the shield itself (in VT2 shields had faster stamina recovery on pushes).

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It is not comparing weapons. It is explaining, what stagger is. Dropping living enemies to the ground is not stagger. That’s a knockdown. And if you want CC then the P Maul is always the better choice on the Ogryn. The shield is useless unless FS makes our Ogryn shields work the same way as the enemy Ogryn shields. And that would mean that these shields also deflect shots on the whole Ogryn while he is able to move. Not just on that tiny little shield, while enemies shoot trough the Ogryn body at teammates behind him. Plus that P Maul that comes with the shield needs to be chargeable.

http://puu.sh/JCnlq/9256814ba1.jpg

This is true, it has BETTER range.
MK 5 has better single burst/chained bursts accuracy, time-to-kill (TTK) etc. etc.
By the time you pull it out, c o c k it (why censor?), and start shooting with the stubber you’d likely already killed 3 things with the MK 5 without forcing you to facetank and exposing you to the counterfire. Honestly it outshines it in pretty much all areas except ammo.

Since the last 2 updates (and bug) it’s up there with the Rumbler and GGauntlet on the medal podium, I suspect it will remain up there if they re-work the stab and fix rending bug.