Seriously, these are probably the two most prominent examples for the difference in mentality between Legend and Cataclysm players:
Cataclysm players: Let’s do this!
Legend players: Let’s cheese the sht out of this because it is sooooo hard!
At least the “Convocation of Decay” final should be fixable rather easy with an assemble team trigger. For “The Pit” you would have to be a bit more rigorous and do the same you did with the corner in “Righteous Stand”. Just dump a lot of trash onto the spot in question.
Sidenote: Also, when will we get a counter to the movement boost attack similar to dodge counter. There is no reason that you can speed yourself up unlimited.
“Beastmen spawning behind me are breaking immersion for me!” Map starts. “Hiya, hiya” 5 minutes of constant jumping and air slashing.
Those aren’t exploits, it’s just Battle Wizard playstyle.
But yeah, since the old RS event exploit, I’ve been frustrated by these cheese spots.
It would be nice if they could either be fixed or changed into triggers for a Gutter Runner event or something. It’s especially annoying in QP, when someone you’re not on comms with jumps into one of these spots.
I left the game before Cata came out so my memories of the top difficulty are Legend.
It is the case that there are occasionally those upjumped Champion players with attitude lurking around, especially on weekends. They run and hide and have secret super strategies (not exploits, just places to hide), are really worried about losing and are a LEADER. They don’t realize they are bad. Sometimes, they even lag the sh*t out of everybody
Really enjoying QP Weave and Drachenfels. The new store, the new talents, and Spear and Billhook
There is a simple solution in the meantime. Pick up a grim, wait for someone to head off and die, simply jump down with that person. Team has no option to cheese anymore, because they don’t want to risk it with just two players.
I see it as win-win.
Snother good option would be to use the confused player that is asked to suicide. Type “Follow me, elf” and charge the nurgling soup.
There are tons of other exploits that people still use.
I mean I am not trying to argue against your initial point, it’s just that people will be people and if they want to find exploits to use they probably will.
Every QP match I play people for example use the Pit exploit at the tavern event.
I ask them to not do that.
You can’t realistically eiiminate all of them.
People still use exploits on weaves or FoW - it is what it is
you have youtubers specifically showing those exploits to the general public
That said, yes I would of course like to see those removed no doubt but there will always be new exploits to discover
As for the movement boost attack, I dont see how that is considered an exploit?
It is very situational and doesn’t help you turn heavily unfavored odds into favored ones?
What it does is help you kite in a situation that is likely to happen very rarely unless you go for True Solo and even then I wouldn’t consider it being a huge gamechanger.
To be honest for my last 10 runs trying to do that event(legend-Convocation) in an honest manner it ended with the team getting very, very close to wiping.
Lots of close calls but ended up pulling through.
Assassins jumping 10 miles, 3 packmasters spawning at the same time, 6+ chaos warriors and several stormvermin.
I am fairly sure that event is bugged in the spawns somehow, it´s way worse than say Fort Brachsenbrücke´s final event with monks, stormvermin, adds and specials because 2-3 monks spawning in the distance on two sides along with some stormvermin is way way easier than what convocation drops on you.
As for the pit, this event is not particularly difficult as i remember but the “exploit” is just a lazy way to get through by using the fact that enemies have to climb a lot which leaves them vulnerable.
No nono it was or is very different, skittergate sends out sparse waves of tiny rats with the occasional wave of 4-5 stormvermin or monks coming in with said waves and divided between two spawns.
Convocation? During one run i had 6 chaos warrios, 2 packmasters, 2flamerats, a heap of mixed mobs like clanrats+raiders and a bunch of shield carriers spawn at the same time which given how quickly they get on you is already way worse than fort or skittergate.
But really the waves can be easier but then you can still get an assassins spawning on a cliff above and jumping down 10 miles straight on to you or down behind a chaos warrior before jumping on you through that same warrior.
Enemies can also climb or jump down all over the entire circular arena you fight on, skittergate and fort meanwhile have set paths which are much, much easier to defend.
Skittergate? No specials spawn.
Fort? You can thin down the monks and stormvermin before they get on you and the environment favors specials less…with the exception of packmasters who can end up riding inside hordes here.
Still easier to deal with then the assassins with their 10 miles jump or firerats hiding behind a heap of chaos warriors.
I like that idea. If you stand in one of the spots during the event it will summon a mini-boss or 10 Gunners. Imagine standing on the upper floor in the Pit and then a Rat Ogre bursting out from the wooden crates behind you, dropping all on the floor.
Meh, that will only lead to grievance and worst case to kicks. As much as I don’t like exploiting. Purposefully acting against team-effort is sometimes worse.
Of course. I am aware that it is impossible to eliminate all exploits and that people will always find new ways for them. But why making it easier than necessary? The more the people get accustomed to cheese the more we run the risk that if we get challenging content which can not be exploited people will cry “unfair” or “too hard” and ask for needless nerfs.
Consider it a personal annoyance of mine. Simply because most people I see using it, use it to noob-rush away from the team in order to get more kills. As you said yourself, there is nearly no gameplay linked to this mechanic. So I don’t see the harm in reducing its availablity by introducing a dodge counter like behaviour so that you don’t get a movement bonus after the third time.
Packmasters and Flamrats could be possible. However, the spawns of Chaos Warriors and Stormvermin are scripted. Every game the absolute same number of them and the order of the waves they appear in will be identical. There is no way 6 CW are on the run (especially on Legend) unless you failed to kill them for a prolonged time.
All I meant with my reply is it´s a head thing that goes for each individually.
You have to determine for yourself if you want to “man up” so to speak and face the challenge or just cheese it and claim you did it.
You can see very clearly in QP who is who obviously.
Again I cant stress enough how much I would like for those exploits to be removed but its really not realistic.
People should maybe stop exploiting and face the challenge?
Yeah I know when hell freezes over
I opened a topic about balancing end event in legend (specifically legend). As it is now Convocation of decay (and some others) is still way harder than your usual finale events. I also advocate that the challenge for it in cata for a premade group is really harsh even for experienced player.
If people have to cheese the event there’s a reason for it.
So attacking the cause would certainly be far better than preventing the cheese (until people find another)
I think this is the issue that needs to be addressed much more than any current exploit I’m aware of. Cata is only really ever played for the challenge, while actual progression is pretty much exclusively tied to beating as many full book legend games as possible.
Until you change that somehow, or make the progression less insanely RNG dependent, people are always going to look for the easy way out. Spending time putting bandaids on the issue isn’t a solution in my opinion.
As a side note, that solution for the pit sounds absolutely terrible. The spot itself doesn’t need to be completely destroyed and made useless, it just needs a way for enemies to path there. Having a decent ranged vantage point is good, having it make the entire event a joke is not so good.
The movement speed thing isn’t an issue either tbh, like @se1z said it’s really only crazy strong in solo stuff.
Is Convocation of Decay harder than most other finales? Maybe. But it is not that hard that it has to be cheesed. It is cheesed because it can be cheesed.
Actually, this is a loop problem. How hard something is, can be determined by the success rate of trying it. People normally try to cheese the final, so they don’t know how to actually engage if doing it the normal way. This means if they finally try it, the failure rate will be high as such leading to the conclusion that it is to hard and cheese is justified. If you break the loop by (temporarily) removing the exploit people will be forced to engage normally in the final.
My opinion? 2-4 weeks later the success rate for Convocation of Decay will be within that of the other missions and people will realize that the final wasn’t as bad as they thought.
This has been adressed before. It should be possible. But it is completely optional. As such it is okay if it is mind-numbing annoying or hard. Just as reference; I’m missing the challenge myself. Haven’t even tried it because I more or less only play public games. Still think it is okay for the challenge to be “difficult” because optional and no special reward tied to it.
There is no fix to this. As long as there is loot in the game people will claim that loot and not overcoming the presented challenges is the progression system. So in order to change that mindset you would have to remove any actual reward. Otherwise people will always take the easy way out. Hm, actually from my L4D experience even without loot this problem will not change. It is just a mentality issue.
Enemies can path there. But they need to jump two or three times. Even if you make them jump up 5 meters from below, the spot would still not present any risk. Only if enemies could drop down from above or the backside the issue could be resolved. As it is now, the spot should not stay.
Of course there is. Give us more control over which loot we get (prioritise certain drops or something), make the drop rates less ridiculously low for certain items and reduce the reliance on random pubs staying alive with books. Reduce the cost of crafting reds and make crafting one also craft the relevant cosmetic. That’s ideas that would reduce the issue that I came up with in about a minute of thinking, I’m absolutely sure there’s more that career games devs could do.
The spot doesn’t need to be high risk, it just needs enemies to be able to path there reasonably. Letting them spawn directly there makes it useless.
I’m inclined to agree that camping cheese spots might be convenient but also take the dynamic out of these events.
I know a lot more safe/cheese spots than the average player but I typically only use them when I’m last man standing. I don’t think Fatshark will fix them all considering how many of them have been in the game for ages.
But yeah, Convocation is a pretty blatant one. If you do actually fix the exploit, the finale might need to be made a bit easier so people don’t ragequit when they get the map. Below Cata anyway.
Brachsenbrücke should be completely revamped so you have to bring every cannonball to the cannon from a random spot. It would make the finale a lot more dynamic because you’d actually have to traverse most of the arena. Of course you’d need to rebalance the wave spawning and the endless monks a little.
Righteous Stand might have had its most obvious spot fixed long ago, but there are still relatively save positions and you can stay in place near the statue while most of the arena remains unused (except when newbies think they know better and fail). Possible change: Don’t make the statue rise by itself, maybe the players need to reach some levers or whatever to progress.
The Pit has already been explained well enough, being able to hide behind multiple climbs/jumps makes the warehouse way too easy and the barricades are largely useless outside of the okri challenge. Could again be somewhat fixed by randomizing and delaying the places you need to set on fire while the event progresses.
Blood in the Darkness has a really weird boss arena because most of it is yet again unused and you can pretty much camp in a corner because it both maximizes the distance spawns have to travel to you and blocks most of the flies. No spawns coming from behind the exit corners pretty much guarantees this, so change the event to deliver threats from all sides and force players to dance around the pillars or something.
Horn of Magnus is also a map where pretty much every team just stands around the same spot in the finale. Since it’s a V1 map you can’t really change too much about it, but I really wish not every finale on this map was the exact same.
Obviously any of the changes I suggested would require spawns to be balanced.
You can tell I’m a fan of forcing the team to move around between objectives/spots to defend. It just creates more dynamic gameplay… and events that are practically the same every time because there’s a clearly optimal way end up being boring after so many runs.
Adding to this a bit, I’d love if the pit got reworked a bit so that holding windows was more of a reasonable strat. Removing a few of them would help a lot with that imo, as it is now even when you’re not cheesing it it just feels like people stand around in a group and just slaughter the enemies after they’re already inside.
I am not judging but for me personally there is no excuse to use cheese spots not even if you are last man standing.
As I said everyone has his own playstyle but for me there is absolutely no excuse to use them.
The only exception that i can think of and this is really the only one for me is if you need some space to kite and you are last man standing, for example Screaming bell after the first drop down where the Grim jump puzzle is. Now if you are LMS and get a boss spawn, what I do is hop on and off that platform to reroute the boss which is the only exception for me. I dont stay there however to kill the enemy as they are standing bellow me and easy to kill without any risk invovled.
I only use it to kite and reroute enemy pathing so I can create some space for myself.
I wanna stress this again, I do not stay there, I hop on for a second jump back down and that’s it.
FYI I am aware that I said no exception but I am not staying there to kill the enemy without risk, I am using the spot for kiting and stay there once every now and then and only for a second.
C’mon. It’s not the only one that’s actually “harder”, but it IS harder than most other finales.
I think you overestimate by far the amount of people that actually know the trick.
In QP, I see people skipping this map on purpose, specifically because the finale have no real “in-pool” strategy, where, before it had a appliable strategy (each character covered one spawn spot, and manage specials when they come).
I mean, it should be possible, but it should not be “so” out of limits of others challenges. Because kinda everything is optional, nothing force you to do 120 weaves or even play legend. There’s a challenge, it should be more manageable.
This way of thinking is what kinda cause Cata to be actually LESS rewarding than legend overall (because you spend more time for equal reward). Which is something that I don’t agree with. Both views are legit though.
But the thing is, with ALL rewards tied to A WIN (progress in quests, challenges, xp, essence, arts, crafting material, etc), and progress into the map hardly taken into account (except for a ridiculous sum of xp), you just can’t overtune finales and hope that it will please people. The hard point of the map should be near the beginning or in the middle due to random events from the AI Director, but the finale itself, even if kinda “special”, should be doable by staying focused.
Result : All maps with hard finales are skipped, maps with “normal” or “easy” finales are not.
First victim was the infamous" Skippergate" until dices were added to bosses, making it more rewarding.
I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that people need to stop asking for nerfs of final events especially for Cata.
Cata as it was designed, wasn’t intended to be QP viable in the first place.
There is only a handful of people out there that can carry QP randoms through Cata successfully.
If you think certain finals are to hard, then either get a team to complete it or cheese it have it your way I guess.
Cata wasn’t intended to be a Legend+ Difficulty with rewards it was meant to be only for people who want something more than Legend.
People actually need to stop nerfing Cata to the ground it’s getting pretty annoying to be honest.
And no I don’t really care for rewards and if you do which is fine, Legend is the difficulty level for you to do that.
Justifying nerfs based on personal experience isnt the way to balance things.
Call me elitist what ever you wanna call me, Cata should stay Cata and not become Legend 2.0 which it never was intended to be.