Weapons and Traits - Darktide Weapon updates vs V2

Keeping this as a list of things I see in need of change, or that have been unusable for a long time.


Weapons

1H Axe (Bardin/Saltz mostly, but Kerillian slightly):

The design of the DT Axes seems like an aknowledgement of how bad 1H Axe is on V2.

  • The best thing about it is the Heavy Attacks (for dancing Chaos Warriors/Bosses), but 1H Maces Heavy Attacks are faster for the same damage + Armour damage (and all of the other things 1H Mace has)

Axe:


1H Mace:

Because of this, it’s hard to see what the function of 1H Axe even is, it’s frustrating in Hordes, and for Elite killing there’s better options. Just having mobility on a Weapon doesn’t make it fun to play.

  • There are 1000 enemies on my screen and I can only hit one at a time with Lights
  • Due to low Cleave, THP generation is also worse, with On-Kill being best, but low damage Heavy Attacks and slow 1 enemy Cleave Lights dealing low damage too
  • The Half Cost Push change didn’t make it feel any better, even though it made building for it slightly easier
  • Also has low Stagger Cleave, so it offers no safety there either
  • Could easily be added to Kruber with no problems

Kerillian’s Axe:
On Kerillians Axe specifically - It still has the problem of hitting one enemy at a time, but Handmaiden (Pushes into Heavy Attacks is really nice on her) can make it work, and there’s some other things that help with Cleave, but it still feels a bit meh - again, it’s a Weapon you would want to work on something like WS, but the low cleave doesn’t offer any safety or THP


Crowbill:
Unfortunately this has been tested on modded and makes Necromancer OP. One way you could fix that is by making the Light 4 not Crit.

Crowbill only suffers slightly from lack of Cleave, due to Sienna’s AoE in general. However, the Light 4 Fire DoT only effects one enemy at a time. I think making this DoT effect more enemies wouldn’t take away from the identity of the Weapon, and would help with the lack of Cleave.

  • Opens it up for use on Battle Wizard
  • Attack is late in the chain, so it doesn’t automatically become a Horde clearing Weapon because of this change

1H Axe and Shield:

  • Should get Tank on the Heavy 1 due to it’s low Cleave, which also lets you use other Traits than Opportunist with it
  • Crits on some Attacks or even on the Heavy → Light single target combo could be nice (Heavy → Light → Heavy)
  • Would also be nice to see Bardin get a new Weapon, which is a version of Sword and Shield, but obvs Dawi style

Mining Pick:
It’s just bad. Look at Exe Sword, which is pretty similar vs Mining Pick:

  • Mining Pick also has 2 Dodge Count, while Exe has 3
  • Bardin has less Melee Stats compared to Kruber
  • VS Shielders, you just don’t have the stats and mobility to survive a lot of situations

Drakefire Pistols:
While nice for a bit of Horde clearing and getting Hunter up, I’d like to see something interesting with them.

  • Possibly make Alt Fire Stagger Elites, like Repel Stagger BPs
  • Possibly make the Primary Fire deal more Boss damage

Volley Crossbows (Keri and Saltz):

  • Feel a bit lacking in general, with no clear strength, when not played on BH
  • Ammo options feel a bit bad for both, due to using 3 shots per Alt Fire
  • Not really sure they need any major damage buffs, but something to make them a bit more interesting
  • Could also likely be used on Kruber - A Dawi version for Bardin too

Glaive:

  • Does not need damage changes, but mobility or defence stats, alternatively Tank Lights with Elite Cleave - Horde/Elite control relies heavily on Stamina, low Dodge Range means you need to Block more

  • Still a highly stat dependent weapon in terms of defence (obvs pops off on Handmaiden because of this, but it’s only really fun on her)

  • The low Dodge Range gets you stuck in the mud on WS/SoTT/even Shade, who have low DMGR (other than Shade, but even then you want Move Speed with 2H’s on Shade)

  • If you wanted it to just work on HM and Shade, changing Shade’s 2nd Row Talent for Poison/Bleed damage to a 2H Weapon Talent, similar to Slayers, would both give Shade a useful Talent, and reduce the need for any change


Kruber/Sienna 1H Sword:

  • It does good damage, but the way in with you deal armour damage feels outdated compared to some of the versatile weapons we have, especially with the addition of CW with Shields
  • Would just be nice to get a slower single target Special Attack with ARP

Bretonnian Sword and Shield:

  • Fix the range of the Push-Attack

There could be a lot of crossover with Saltz and Kruber in terms of Ranged/Melee Weapons:

  • Tuskgor Spear on BH
  • Handgun BH
  • Both Reapeaters on both
  • Crossbow Kruber Merc/FK (Huntsman would probs be too strong)
  • Unsure about Blunder, due to how strong Griffon-foots BH is already

BH/WHC:

  • 1H Mace would be great here

Sienna:

  • A bit lacking in Weapon choice in general, but very little crossover

Traits

Just a lack of interesting choice, considering how good some of the DT ones are and how much cool stuff there is in Chaos Wastes.


Melee:

Heroic Intervention:
Heroic Intervention just isn’t ever worth using for any reason. To test this, play 100 matches and see how many ‘Saves’ one player gets on the Leaderboard.

THP isn’t really an issue, so it would be nice to get a different utility/damage Trait instead.

Parry:
Is great for Careers with high melee power etc, but would like to see a small added bonus to it, even if it is like 5% AS on the attack after.

  • Something to make it better for 2Hers

Resourceful Combatant:
Needs a sound. :musical_note:

Quite a weird one, although the buffs helped it, most Trait choices are usually for defensive as well as offensive reasons.

  • You lose out on AS/Stagger/Parry which effects Weapon build negatively
  • Also relies on Crits, which not every Weapon could make use of, think of 2Hers

Off Balance:
Good with Shield Weapons, but that’s it.

  • Mace and Shield, because the Heavy1 has Tank
  • Other Shield Weapons rely on other sources of Stagger
  • Could possibly even combine this with Parry

Range:


Mentioning these as people usually bring them up, and they was bad before so many weapons that don’t use ammo got added.

Inspirational Shot:
Good on weapons with no Ammo mostly, but under utilized for some reason. Probably people don’t realise how strong it can be.

  • Spam sound can be a little annoying, should probs only :musical_note: if it actually grants someone Stamina, and not over 100%
  • Would be nice to get some extra range on this too
  • Make it more consistant to headshot Chaos Infantry with the Flamethrower

Resourceful Sharpshooter:
Needs a sound. :musical_note:

As above. SoTT is great with this. Better than the melee version for sure, as they don’t eat your build.


THP


Stagger THP:
Could do with a nerf, as you’re already using Weapons which offer safety, and on top of that you get OP THP.

Especially with Shields.

Has the added bonus of reducing some of Battle Wizards range spam, which is still too strong, when combined with her Career Skill’s damage.

Crits & Headshots:
This has always been weak, but I’m unsure if other THPs are just too strong.

Bounty Hunter:
Give him Cleave THP, as his Melee isn’t bursty enough to compete. He’s the worst feeling Career in the game in terms of THP generation.


List of weak or useless Talents

Sienna

Enfeebling Flames (Unchained):
Only reduces enemy damage while burning and burns are too short.

It could probably be useful if you’re able to do sustained Boss damage, but that’s very rare, as there’s usually other enemies up. It’s also very niche.

Suggestion:
Give it a timer (LONG ENOUGH FOR THE ENEMY TO ATTACK AFTER BEING STAGGERED), instead of “while burning”.

To test this:

  • Use any Burn Attack on the dummy
  • See how long the DoT lasts
  • Imagine how long the Stagger from that Attack is
  • Imagine how the enemy also has to be attacking something for that Debuff to do anything

Chain Reaction (Unchained):
Effect just doesn’t do enough and you don’t really know it’s happening half of the time. It only effects smaller enemies.

Suggestion:
Make the effect longer (like the cowering on Darktide):

"Terrifying Barrage

Suppress Enemies within 5-8 Radius on Close Range Kill."


Soul Siphon (Pyromancer):
It’s too RNG for such a small amount.

Suggestions:

  • Make something more interesting
  • Keep the amount, but increase the duration

OR

  • Increase the amount

Spark Thief - On-Kill THP(Battle Wizard):
Battle Wizard doesn’t get enough melee single target damage to make use of it.

Suggestion:
Give Cleave THP.


Bardin


Dawi Defiance (Ironbreaker):
Seems way too RNG, even though it could be strong if it actually happens during high density.

Suggestion:

  • Add something a little more sustained to it, to match the other two more sustained Talents on that Row
  • Add a sound when it occurs

Blood of Grimnir (Ironbreaker):
5% is a bit weak compared to giving everyone 10% Power or the damage for Drakeguns

  • Make Bardin count as one of the allies

Last Resort (RV):
While it’s good for Throwing Axe Bomb builds, it could be made to give more support, by giving double Proxy, so that a full melee Scavenger build with Exhilarating Vapours is a really viable full support build.


Saltz


Bounty Hunter:
He needs a complete overhaul. The Kill = Crit mechanic is too stubborn and strong to make any competitive Talents on that row, without making him extremely strong.

You only really need to keep the Crossbow 1 hit kills after a melee kill anyway.


Row 10 (Zealot):
Castigate is fine, and possibly a little too good, which makes other choices less appealing.

Smite and Unbending Purpose are too weak, and neither plays into his health mechanic.

Suggestions:

  • Stagger Talent (Stagger Power/Increased damage too/reduced damage from), so you can make a more Tank-style build with Redemtion Through Blood - Scales with low HP somehow
  • High TRUE HP = more move speed and Crit (Motorbike Move Speed Zealot)

Riposte (Witch Hunter Captain):
Too RNG, would be better to have a stacking Buff from Parrying. Possibly CDR.


Kerillian


Incandescence (SoTT):
Other than ledging Bosses or some delaying tactics, I can’t really see the use of it. You can already do those things without.


Ironbark Thicket (SoTT):
The Wall is already very RNG, and barely useful a lot of the time, so a longer and bigger wall is even more RNG.

The chance of actually making use of this is too small. Tanglegrasp Thicket also Staggering and dragging smaller enemies kind of totalled this Talent.


Exploit Weakness (Shade):
Exploit Weakness deals less damage than the other two Talent choices, with Weapons that can Bleed, and can actually deal a significant amount of Boss damage with the Javelin’s melee on Bosses. There isn’t many enemies tanky enough or unarmoured enough for it to take off. She also doesn’t have access to Power, which would increase DoT damage.

Another reason it’s not so good is the lack of Bleed/Poison ability on Weapons, or how late it comes in combos, and low ammo on Hagbane (which kills the targets anyway). By the time you’ve got the Bleed up, the enemy is usually dead anyway:

  • SnD: Push-Attack & Light 4
  • DD: Lights (it increases DD general damage a bit, but if you use EH you outdamage it)
  • Javelin: Light 5

Hagbane does more damage with headshots and Exquisite Huntress.

Suggestion:
Change it to a 2H buffing Talent, similar to Slayers, to make Glaive, 2H Sword, Spear more fun on Shade.


Hungry Wind (Shade):
It can be ok, but needs some kind of CDR to make up for losing so much killing power - also adding a 2Her Talent, would make this the go-to for 2H builds.


Focused Spirit (Handmaiden):
Just stop it getting removed by friendly fire and it will be fine.


Fervent Huntress and Ricochet(Waystalker):
Both too RNG, and can’t compete with 20% CDR, when her Career Skill is so strong.


Kruber


Helborg’s Tutelage (Merc):
As he gets a lot of Crit anyway, it’s a bit of a strange one, as 25% Power or Cleave on that row will always be better, for frontlining and shotgunning respectively.

The only real use I’ve found for this is a Smiter Dual Wield build for Elite killing (it gives you two stacks per heavy). But even then, it’s not really worth it.


Enhanced Training (Merc):
Even on Cata+, with Greatswords, it’s a little too RNG. You would still take Reikland Reaper or Strike Together for Cleaving 3 Chaos Warriors, due to range. As soon as a Shield is involved it’s pointless.

3 Likes

I appreciate your enthusiasm, however I think FS expects more players from Versus than from a better or more diverse gameplay. We already solved most of these issues with mods, this makes their preference quite obvious.

1 Like

As much as i wana get onboard with letting all weapons not just be alright or only good with one specific build…i find that there is a bit of an issue with my perspective fundamentally. One i suspect applies to you here as well.

The matter of having the perspective of a cata player.

Now what do i mean by this? Why would this be any kind of a hiccup? I believe it so since i think the balancing floor is set to legend, so buffing weapons to “feel good” on cata is likely just an express ticket to making a big mess “downstairs” so to say. Or write.

We need seperate balancing for the different difficulties if we wana get this done right, something i am unsure if it is on the table at all.:disappointed:

1 Like

Sorry, but that’s a little defeatist imo. I think the fact that DT has like 20 Melee Weapons per character is absolutely a reason to ask for more diversity in V2. Especially since it’s been years that things like 1H Axe have sucked.

While I respect that modders have done some of it, usually that comes with other changes that don’t makes sense. I think the last one I looked at had buffs to some of the Dual Wield Weapons, etc. :zipper_mouth_face: I also want to play the legit game, as QP isn’t a thing on modded.

Also don’t think we should allow “there’s a mod for that” to be a copout to things that blatantly need fixing. E.g. Heroic Intervention being left as is for so long.

Could you be more specific?

1 Like

No, there are mod for that means even if FS devs don’t play V2 and have no idea how to fix things, mods could give them solutions.
We got some buffs in the autumn, and from those I got the impression they don’t really know what are the real problems. Another possibility, they play in specific scenarios like in 4 player teams with communication and the disadvantages remain somewhat hidden. I think one should play true solo or duo to get the idea quickly. Or quickplay without mics.

2 Likes

Yeah, a lot of the builds often feel as if they’ve been designed around someone testing as a single player in a void too. BH is the biggest offender for this. Put his On-Kill THP in with 3 other ppl, one of whom is an Elite killer.

I hereby challenge the playtest team to play 1H Axe - Push Angle + Crit Power and (Heroic Intervention), so at least one of these things gets changed (I know Push Angle has a function). And do it on BH too :innocent:.

Also I don’t know how DT can do so well at fixing the problems of V2, but the changes here are completely out of touch - like OE.

3 Likes

Hm, somewhat exaggerated but lets take the elf hagbane, there´s a lot of people who do think the weapon is weak and has poor ammo economy. So imagine if firing just 2 shots into a cata rotblood horde cluster just killed most of them outright with no buffs needed and the weapon had 50% more base ammo. Monster damage would also be increased since its her weapon for it.

(Broken with strength potion? I have no idea what you are talking about ~)

Or picture a swiftbow that kills legend stormvermin in two charged bodyshots with double base ammo so any elf could use it freely…nevermind what WS would do with it. Maybe a longbow with a default penetration of 3 cata rotblood marauders?

(Actually i am seriously tempted by that thought, even if it´d cause identity issues with moonbow and javs all over…but it would surely feel so good. Gimme that medieval anti tank rifle. )

Perhaps stick 50% more cleave&damage + armor gliding + better headshot damage on the elf greatsword, letting any elf just hack through any wave like a merc kruber with…twice? The mobility.

Elf dual swords with triple armor damage. A spear of hers making use of the bladed edges to do slashing attacks for wide cleave.

Yah exaggerated to be sure, but to be fair, i do not mean to state that there are no weapons that could probably be greatly improved with a much lighter touch without causing issues. Some weapons like the elf 1h axe could even eat very heavy buffs without problem and i am all for such improvements. However, the idea is to be careful, for some weapons to “feel good” on cata would definitely need a change that does too much below.

2 Likes

I’m still unsure of what you mean in relation to what I’ve suggested? I understand the idea of what you’re saying, but I have no idea how the changes I’ve suggested would do that.

The Weapons I’ve suggested that could do with a damage increase are:

  • 1H Axes, which would hardly change Legend, as they can only hit one enemy at a time, and require melee range - I don’t think Kerillian’s version should be taken to the same level
  • 1H Axe and Shield, which would hardly change Legend
  • War Pick, which would hardly change Legend as stronger and faster Weapons, which 1 shot on Legend already exist - E.g. Exe Sword
  • Drakefire Pistols, Boss damage was one suggestion, but Stagger would probably be more likely
  • Glaive, I just wanted Stagger Cleave on Elites for Lights, with the aim of increasing surv more than anything, but with that survival change, the Stagger inherently leads to more dmge opportunities

But that’s it? I don’t know how these things would impact Legend at all. I’m unsure of Legend breakpoints, but I’m pretty certain there’s some silly ones for melee, and some obscene ones for range.

1 Like

oh i do not take any issue with the specific changes you have proposed, there is nothing that i think is a problem with any of it, what i was taking note of was this statement in on itself.

While it is subjective to start with, what is weak and unfun, i do think/agree that objectively there are things like the 1h axe for instance that are just outright weak and bad. I do not see any problem with the specifics you suggested. However it does still raise the question of “Which things are weak&unfun and how far do we go to fix that” which is a slippery slope, best navigated with care.

…Disclaimer, that care is not needed at all for reworking things like Heroic intervention or crappy weird stats like block angle which will never be used due to competing with far superior options.

1 Like

For me in Vermintide, each enemy presents a threat and careful approach, all the way down to the pesky skavenslave on your heels. Its more likely I try and stun or position around an enemy in Vermintide before I strike for damage. (Making single target weapons fun!)

What’s also fun is the limit approach (for the most part) to range combat, requiring precise timing on special shots or horde clear.

Darktide has the ability to just vomit enemies and chaff. The range aspect allows for fun dakka moments and I tend to think of the general horde as something to keep a thumb on while looking for the hound or sniper. (making horde clearing weapons almost required)

Overall yes, I do agree with most of your weapon assessments, but I also think V2 is in a great spot. I do like the 1 weapon type in V2 over the bloat in Darktide. If someone asked me they should just keep 1 weapon type but allow us to customize the attack patterns.

Now if we apply your feedback to something like V3 then… well…
image

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I feel like I haven’t had that feeling of fighting one Skaven Slave or Infantry being a moment since V2 came out, it’s there on Elites, but not random Infantry. It was in V1.

I’d honestly like to see some sort of melee Special, similar to a Berserker, but kind of a duelist enemy could be interesting.

Generally though, I feel like Hordes can get deleted by range, like the specific builds I mentioned at the top, if they have no Elites in. It makes them feel really weak sometimes. Especially Skaven. It’s why I want a more meaty enemy that isn’t just copy pasta Maulers to thicken things up. Beastmen kind of fit it, but I feel like there’s never enough of them, and people hate them. :pensive:

Yes, like the assassin dodge back! Night runners mixed in with clanrats!

1 Like

Damn I just remembered the Beastman dodge back. Remember what they took from us.

I think a side step would actually be more visually readable tbh.

To be fair imo, the dodgeback did have a bit of a problematic identity when placed into high density situations since the goat would start his attack but you couldnt stop him because he´d be dodging back behind at least 5 other goats. Then hit you for half you healthbar with good tracking. Or maybe you dodge that but then the second goat you barely even saw start the animation under cover comes in with his headbutt instead.

It was a characteristic move, but one that kinda lacked reasonable fairplay, especially for weapons lacking high cleave&stagger which is most of them.

Well, those and a persistent problem with gors, for me at least, i feel like their animations often do not seem well synced with the actual timing of their attack hits. The attacks do not arrive when they are supposed to when dealing with them.

2 Likes

Yeah, it’s why I focused on readability with the side step tbh. When you’re looking at entire Hordes, your depth perception for one random enemy is obvs distorted. I remember they would stab you through the back of other enemies too.

I just really like the thicc Hordes tbh, it’s why I want those plaguebearers for Chaos.

Also all enemy Shields following the same rules as the Chaos Warrior Shields would be nice too.

1H Axe.

“god m8 the ogryn picks feel like such well designed weapons
they’re all just fun to play with
all incredibly strong at slightly different things
and movesets that are different enough to feel fresh and nice even though they all serve the same roles in the end”

maxresdefault

Ogryn weapons feel overall awesome :smiley:

1 Like

That free headshot angle is so nice.