Weapon, Stagger/THP Talents and Push/block angle Suggestions

[Velsix]

I haven’t included all weapons, just the ones I felt knowledgeable about. I’ve also made some suggestions for the stagger talents, the thp talents and an item property.

Kruber’s Weapons

• Executioner’s Sword

  • L3: Now chains into H2 for visual consistency. 10% crit chance removed. Speed nerf reverted. Logical for an underhand attack to be faster (already is, this is to reinforce it).
  • Push attack’s cleave changed to the Greataxe’s heavies. Keeps it distinct from the other lights and matches visually with the way Kruber pulls the swing back and ‘charges’ it.
  • Bodyshot armour dmg of heavies reduced by 5% and crit chance reduced to 10% from 20%. Still has high stagger, but as a sword it should require finesse vs armour.
  • H1 block delay after releasing increased. Prevents block cancelling which inflates its single target dps too much and gives it a fair amount of commitment for its dmg.

• Halberd

  • Dmg of the light stab vs berserkers upped by 10%. Gives it a purpose over the overhead. Makes sense for a quick stab to be a good way of dealing with dangerous berserkers.
  • H1 now cleaves Maulers like Dual Sword lights. Gives a small amount of control.

• Greatsword

  • Lights now cleave Maulers like Dual Sword lights. Gives them a use over the heavies.
  • Movement speed reduced to 50% during heavy charging. Buffed to 60% from 20% in the recent weapon balance. Brings back the heavy feel while keeping its unique mobility.

• Bretonnian Longsword

  • Riposte given a 0.25 inner block cost modifier. Normal blocking retains 0.5 modifier.
  • L2 now chains into H1 and vice-versa.
  • Movement slowdown on H2 & H3 changed to match the lesser slowdown of H1.
  • Dodge range reduced to 1.15 from 1.2 to reduce overlap with 1h Sword and because it’s appropriate for a weapon that’s between a two-hander and a one-hander.
  • L1’s cleave and dmg reduced to match L2 as it’s already faster which compensates for its worse angle (0.63s vs 0.72s). Shouldn’t be higher cleave than Greatsword’s lights.
  • L3 given a small boost in movement. Allows it to safely break shields in hordes and provides incentive to mix it in with the standard L1-L2-block cancel and L1-H1 chains.
  • Make all lights block cancel more easily to mitigate vulnerability it has while attacking.

Saltzpyre’s Weapons

• Rapier
  • Cleave of push attack and all lights except for L3 lowered so they don’t cleave unstaggered Gors on Cata by default. L3’s cleave unchanged to give it a unique purpose.
  • Increase headshot bonus damage of charged attacks by 25%.
  • Full charge stagger strength increased so that it staggers elites on headshot when said elites are not attacking. Extends to CWs provided you have at least 10% power.
  • Offhand Pistol can no longer be used while blocking.
  • Push/block angle lowered to 60° from 90° (Dual Daggers are 40° for reference). With the cleave nerf and the heavy attack buffs, this redefines the Rapier as a duelist’s weapon.
  • 8% bodyshot dmg reduction to light attacks. 10% reduction in bodyshot dmg for heavies.

Kerillian’s Weapons

• Spear
  • Dodge count upped to 4 from 3. Fair as it has less stagger than T.Spear and Billhook.
  • Headshot hitboxes improved slightly.

Multi-Career Weapons

• 1h Axe

  • Give the heavies movement boost. Useful for breaking shield in horde/kiting elites safely.
  • Increase cleave of L3 to Dual Dagger lights (from 2.24 cleave to 2.98 cleave).

• 1h Sword (Kruber & Sienna)

  • Dodge count upped to 4 from 3. Gives it a mobility niche among Kruber’s other mobility weaps (only Bret S & S has 4 dodges) without making it noticeably better on Sienna.
  • L3 now lowers the guard of shield Marauders. Small change to lessen weakness vs shields.

---

Stagger & THP Talent Suggestions

• Assassin
  Bonus dmg on crit bodyshot reduced to 20% from 40%. Headshot bonus unchanged. Makes Assassin a more skillful talent by lowering crit interaction.

• Bulwark
  Duration increased to 3s and dmg buff increased to 15%. Increases stagger power by 10%.

THP Talent Suggestions

• THP on Crit/Headshot
  “Melee headshots restore 3 temporary health. Multiplied by 1.5 for charged attacks. Max 2 enemies.”
  A buff to thp on headshot/crit provided you have a good headshot %. More useful with cleave. 1.5x effect for charged attacks to make it useful outside of light spam.

• THP on Cleave
  THP received for first target in cleave is now 0.5. Subsequent targets still give 1.

• THP on Kill
  “Melee blows restore temporary health based on the damage dealt. Temporary health is only gained from the highest damage dealt to a single enemy in your cleave.”
  No reliance on dealing last blow. Amount of thp given is up for discussion. Limited to 1 enemy in your cleave, which will be the one you dealt the most damage to (usually the 1st one hit, but sometimes the 1st enemy hit will have low hp so this makes it more consistent).

• THP on Stagger
  Now works on enemies that you killed, amount of thp gained with shield slams/Firesword heavies needs to be lessened if this change is to happen.

Other

• Push/block angle property now also affects push radius. Renamed push/block size.

Here’s a link to a reply containing extended reasoning that also lists changes that seem to be liked by the community so far: Extended Reasoning and Generally Liked Changes

[Rebel]

@Velsix

THP on Cleave
Thp per cleaved enemy reduced to 0.9 from 1.0. Still higher than initial WoM nerf (0.75).

I think making it so tHP on cleave gives only 0.5 tHP on the first enemy hit is a better solution.

[anon75893681]

@Velsix

Offhand Pistol can no longer be used while blockin

Any reasoning behind this suggestion?

[Velsix]

@Rebel

I think making it so tHP on cleave gives only 0.5 tHP on the first enemy hit is a better solution.

I like it. Can’t see any issues with it, makes thp on cleave not the best option for nearly every weapon.

@anon75893681

Any reasoning behind this suggestion?

It’s pretty cheesy as it’s free damage. I view it the same way I view Lingering. It’s no where near that level, but it shouldn’t be able to do this while blocking, especially since it has pretty decent stagger.

[Incandescent]

@Velsix

• • H1 block delay after releasing increased. Prevents block cancelling which inflates its single target dps too much, and gives it a fair amount of commitment for its dmg.
• Tuskgor Spear
• Dmg vs monsters lowered by 5%. Slightly too much monster dmg.

these two bits seem like very unnecessary nerfs imo along with the other 5% nerfs to monster damage in the list

@Velsix

Increase the cleave of L3 to Dual Dagger light levels (from 2.24 damage and stagger cleave to 2.98 stagger and damage cleave). Very small cleave increase, minor damage decrease to L3 alongside this change.

I like this although L3 I think should be untouched damage wise, 1h axes aren’t in danger of becoming too wild any time soon I think.

I like the 1h sword ideas.

The smiter and assassin changes are very big nerfs, too far imo if the idea here is to drag things down so mainstay becomes viable. Bulwark on the other hand still looks to be somewhat anemic.

@Velsix

“Melee headshots restore 4 temporary health.”
A buff to thp on headshot/crit provided you have a good headshot %.

how is this interacting with crit headshots? still doubling up?

@Velsix

THP on Stagger
Now works on enemies that you killed.

I like this but THP on stagger does need a nerf regarding how it interacts with slams; firesword and shield bash spam produce unreasonable amounts of thp.

[Velsix]

This reply is for extended reasoning and will be edited as needed.

• Halberd
  • Dmg of the light stab vs berserkers upped by 10%.

An increase of 10% results in the stabs still being lower dmg than the overheads on bodyshot, but they come out ahead on headshot. Small buff.

• Greatsword
  • Lights now cleave through Maulers like Dual Sword lights.

The cleave change makes using lights on Maulers more effective than heavy attacks in addition to making mixing in lights more rewarding.

• Rapier
  • Lights except L3 cleave lowered to no longer cleave unstaggered Cata Gors by default.
  • Increase headshot bonus damage of charged attacks by 25%.
  • Offhand Pistol can no longer be used while blocking.
  • 8% bodyshot dmg reduction to light attacks and 10% for heavies.

The lowered cleave on lights except L3 and the headshot dmg buff to the heavies is to make spamming lights less rewarding and make using heavies, even on WHC who has Killing Shot, more rewarding on mansized single targets. It’s also so even on Zealot/BH you always want to headshot Maulers with charged attacks.

For the pistol: It’s pretty cheesy to be able to do damage while blocking at no risk or cost.

For the bodyshot dmg: These values make it harder for WHC to 1 shot crit bodyshot SV and other elites with the Rapier’s full charge. The base bodyshot damage would no longer be higher than Dual Dagger lights and Spear heavy attacks.

• Bulwark
  Duration increased to 3s and dmg buff increased to 15%. Increases stagger power by 10%.

The stagger power increase is so that it never competes with Enhanced Power for reaching stagger breakpoints. E.g. The push of the Greatsword can stagger SV out of their running attack/light attacks with Have At Thee, Comrades In Arms and a 10% property, which Bulwark would fill in for.

---

Compiled list of supported/generally liked changes so far. Will be updated as needed:

• Exec L3 chaining into H2 for visual consistency.

• 1h Axe
  • Give the heavies a movement boost.
  • Increase the cleave of L3 to Dual Dagger lights.

• 1h Sword (human) dodge count upped to 4 from 3 and L3 lowering guard of shield Marauders.
• Push/block angle property now also affects push radius. Renamed push/block size.

[Velsix]

@Incandescent

these two bits seem like very unnecessary nerfs imo along with the other 5% nerfs to monster damage in the list

For the Exec, I’m of the opinion that its heavy attacks are too high dps when block cancelled for the bodyshot damage they give, especially when the power buffs come into play. It’s just too easy and rewarding.

For the Billhook, its heavy stab is a faster full charge Rapier stab with slightly worse armour dmg, slightly better superamour dmg and much better non-crit monster dmg. Again it’s really easy to block cancel to inflate its dps and most of the time I see the overhead heavy being used it’s on accident.

The monster dmg nerf to the pointy sticks was mainly because I think it’s a bit high for all 3. I just don’t really see why they should have such high monster damage in the first place.

@Incandescent

I like this although L3 I think should be untouched damage wise, 1h axes aren’t in danger of becoming too wild any time soon I think.

I like the 1h sword ideas.

The smiter and assassin changes are very big nerfs, too far imo if the idea here is to drag things down so mainstay becomes viable. Bulwark on the other hand still looks to be somewhat anemic.

Yeah it’s a pretty minor cleave increase for L3. Keeping the damage the same is fair.

Why would the nerfs to Smiter and Assassin be too much? Mainstay would be the generalists dps talent, while Smiter and Assassin would be for specialists and reaching specific melee breakpoints. Bulwark is difficult to work with. Maybe make it increase stagger power by 10% so it doesn’t compete with Enhanced Power due to stagger breakpoints?

@Incandescent

how is this interacting with crit headshots? still doubling up?

No. Just 4 thp per headshot. Would this still be too low?

@Incandescent

I like this but THP on stagger does need a nerf regarding how it interacts with slams; firesword and shield bash spam produce unreasonable amounts of thp.

I agree.

[Incandescent]

@Velsix

I just don’t really see why they should have such high monster damage in the first place.

I mean in the case of spears video game logic (and irl logic to an extent) dictates spears are good against cavalry/large enemies and in WH that logic is no different so that’s where I think it comes from. Personally I think it’s fine.

As for the stagger talents: generalist dps just isn’t anywhere near as important as damage on elites and monsters and there’s only a handful of weapons that would prefer mainstay. Idk I’m of the opinion the system in general is inherently flawed and needs a much larger overhaul than just tweaking the numbers. I also don’t think enhanced power should be a thing, ranged breakpoints are already far too forgiving currently.

@Velsix

No. Just 4 thp per headshot. Would this still be too low?

that’d be fine, if you ended up getting 6 thp or so off crit headshots it’d probably be too strong hence my query. Is it only hp on headshots now or are crits still a factor?

[Frostysir]

@Velsix

Push/block angle lowered to 60° from 90° (Dual Daggers are 40° for reference). Alongside the cleave nerf and the heavy attack buffs, it redefines the Rapier as a duelist’s weapon.

@Velsix

Cleave of push attack and all lights except for L3 lowered so they don’t cleave unstaggered Gors on Cata by default. L3’s cleave unchanged to give it a unique purpose.

I cant say for certain but it seems likely to me that changes like those kinda cripples the rapier vs multiple opponents which i dare suggest might render the weapon useless in any mode where enemies are abundant. So instead let 1hand axe keep that dead niche and lets rapier keep being good .c

@Velsix

• Offhand Pistol can no longer be used while blocking.

It is cheesy but its not really a balance problem and does not warrant removing, having unique tricks like this is fun.

@Velsix

Kerillian’s Weapons

• Spear
• Headshot hitboxes improved slightly.

It seems small but this might actually be all it takes to make it overpowered : P

@Velsix

Assassin
“Headshots deal 40% more damage. Removes damage bonus from staggered enemies.”
Makes Assassin a skillful single target talent by removing crit interaction and stagger dmg.

Single target? It would make it far too niche and bleedingly useless and weak to boot. Just given how frequently one fights hordes and how few weapons can actually consistently headshot against all hordes you´d never want to use this.

Similar to how the 1handed axe is never used with something else to help clear hordes because no matter how easy it is to play with against armor the downside of being useless against a group is too much.

You´d be like…playing only elf with hagbane and spear and never anything else to make that work but even then you are probably better off with enhanced power for better hagbane. Even when someone else like the slayer uses the 1hand axe they often bring another weapon for anti horde purposes.

[Velsix]

@Incandescent

I mean in the case of spears video game logic (and irl logic to an extent) dictates spears are good against cavalry/large enemies and in WH that logic is no different so that’s where I think it comes from. Personally I think it’s fine.

Then the halberd should do the highest monster damage out of all of the polearms by a large amount (higher than now anyway), both from a realistic point of view and from the other games. Slayer should have an inherent bonus vs monsters as well.

I just don’t think that Handmaiden should be able to solo the bile troll’s regen health on Cata because they picked a versatile weapon that can decently deal with everything.

My point of view isn’t cement so I’m willing to change perspectives here. Bear in mind that even with a 5% reduction they’ll still have higher monster dps than most weapons, including ones which already have decent monster dmg like the Rapier.

@Incandescent

As for the stagger talents: generalist dps just isn’t anywhere near as important as damage on elites and monsters and there’s only a handful of weapons that would prefer mainstay. Idk I’m of the opinion the system in general is inherently flawed and needs a much larger overhaul than just tweaking the numbers. I also don’t think enhanced power should be a thing, ranged breakpoints are already far too forgiving currently.

The system probably is too flawed.

@Incandescent

that’d be fine, if you ended up getting 6 thp or so off crit headshots it’d probably be too strong hence my query. Is it only hp on headshots now or are crits still a factor?

Only headshots.

@Frostysir

It is cheesy but its not really a balance problem and does not warrant removing, having unique tricks like this is fun.

It resets the parry window (this could be potentially changed without stopping it from being usable while blocking, just bringing it up). It doesn’t belong on what is supposed to be a high skill weapon. It would be like if you could use the Billhook’s hook while blocking. The Rapier is overall too safe for its dps.

@Frostysir

Single target? It would make it far too niche and bleedingly useless and weak to boot. Just given how frequently one fights hordes and how few weapons can actually consistently headshot against all hordes you´d never want to use this.

The idea is so that it’s used to assassinate specific targets in melee, like Packmasters and other specials. Smiter would be the more forgiving version, with better synergy in high stagger teams. With low cleave weapons like Dual Daggers the skill ceiling becomes very high with this change when using Smiter/Assassin.

Pretty much all weapons can headshot hordes. Even Kerillian’s Greatsword can with its lights. By taking Assassin you would be deciding that you’re going to kill threats, but that you aren’t the horde dps. Pretty fair considering it’s a massive 40% dmg boost on headshot without stagger requirements. Same reasoning for Smiter. You won’t be useless against a horde with Assassin or Smiter, you’ll just do less dmg than someone with Mainstay. You’ll still be able to kill a horde, and your weapon will still have its cleave.

Both you and Incan disagree with my stagger suggestions, but for different reasons. Incan believes the general horde dps difference between Mainstay and Assassin/Smiter with these changes would not matter, while you believe that it would render the talents worthless in practical application due to hordes.

[anon75893681]

Some of your suggestions are made to make it more visually pleasing, or make it so it “makes more sense”. But having acces to alt fire pistol while blocking does make sense to me and the weapon. If you find the pistol overperforming then i would say the pistol should get tweaked. not remove the fact to be able to block, as thats doable because its an off hand pistol.

[Velsix]

Should all dual wield weapons, and shields, be able to attack while blocking because it makes sense?

[Frostysir]

@Velsix

Pretty much all weapons can headshot hordes. Even Kerillian’s Greatsword can with its lights

They can but the keyword of my statement is “consistently”, for instance Keri greatsword cannot consistently headshot against beastmen or even chaos hordes rushing at her while she is dodging and a change like this would cripple it hard against them.

Especially since you´d still want to use it to empower her heavy attack since it´d be too weak otherwise.

@Velsix

Pretty fair considering it’s a massive 40% dmg boost on headshot without stagger requirements.

You realize that in the live iteration actually does 40% bonus on headshots right? Plus a bunch extra? Removing that and many weapons like elf dual blades that rely on crits effectively lose a crap ton of damage which ends up as massive nerfs for no reason.

The present reality as i see it is this, on one hand you have mainstay for cleave/stagger weapons and on the other you have assassin for headshots and/or crit weapons and finally enhanced power for exceptions.

Smite is kind of a joke, never good.
Edit : Later realized smite has been changed from how i remembered it and now it has uses. End of edit.

@Velsix

The idea is so that it’s used to assassinate specific targets in melee, like Packmasters and other specials.

…Its useless as hell thoooough!?

For this to be effective you need it to enable to you always oneshot these “special targets” and you always need flawless access to them, other enemies cant be allowed to bodyblock for them.

If you´ve played Shade any you´d know that when you spot a packmaster inside a horde you dont pop stealth and walk into the horde to stab the hooky fellow, you pop stealth and shoot him to death from a safe distance.

And it does not solve the issue of being too god damn niche and making you ridiculously weaker against hordes relative to now on many, many weapons!

@Velsix

Should all dual wield weapons, and shields, be able to attack while blocking because it makes sense?

Not all of them and not for any manner of attack but kind of yes? Would take having appropriate penalties like stamina draining much faster if you take hits while doing it due to broken posture.

[anon75893681]

I knew you would respond that xD.

Sure, if you could parry an attack with 1 sword and follow up with an attack with the second sword, i wouldn’t be against that.

Shields would be a bit different as i would imagine its harder to attack while holding your shield up.

[Incandescent]

realistically, phalanx formations and roman battle formations and saxon/dane shield walls involved attacking with shields raised

obvs there’s limitations to it but shielding most of your body and thrusting a sword or spear is pretty doable

[Velsix]

@Frostysir

You realize that in the live iteration actually does 40% bonus on headshots right? Plus a bunch extra? Removing that and many weapons like elf dual blades that rely on crits effectively lose a crap ton of damage which ends up as massive nerfs for no reason.

Assassin, and Smiter, are frontloaded easy dps with no drawbacks. 40% is a massive dmg spike on the most important targets. The other option is to flat out replacing Smiter with Assassin and making Assassin only 30%. Elf weapons do not rely on Assassin to deal damage for the most part. Any weapon with decent cleave can use Mainstay effectively, so that really only leaves the 1h Axe (which wouldn’t really be that affected by these changes) and Dual Daggers, the highest single target melee dps weapon in the game that already has low cleave, so it would only be affected by the crit interaction removal. Dual Daggers are really good for headshots, especially with light attacks, so I don’t see why this as an issue.

Mainstay isn’t really even used on horde clearing weapons, because not being able to deal with elites and other single target threats in melee at least somewhat effectively is crippling, and because the effective horde dps increase over the other stagger talents is just not that high.

@Frostysir

…Its useless as hell thoooough!?

It’s still a very large dps increase on elites and monsters too.
That’s a specific example. What if you’re ult is on cooldown?
If I’m WHC with the Rapier stabbing a Packmaster that’s inside of a horde is reasonable enough. It’s harder with short range weapons as it should be. It’s also doable with Kerillian’s Spear, which has the linesmen modifier on its stabs as well to aid in this.

@anon75893681

Sure, if you could parry an attack with 1 sword and follow up with an attack with the second sword, i wouldn’t be against that.

Shields would be a bit different as i would imagine its harder to attack while holding your shield up.

It’s the same problem with one of the Riposte ideas I had. It’s too much work for Fatshark to ever implement this, and letting the Rapier do it just seems weird. It lets the weapon get away with staggering elites and getting out of situations it really shouldn’t (and should be using its mobility to avoid being in the first place) for free.

By the same token, pushes should do a small amount of damage if the target falls over, FK’s charge should deal damage. Being able to use the pistol special is just cheese with a hint of Parry and BH crit.

Edit: Oh and good luck with the tourney @Incandescent.

[Incandescent]

Oh cheers lmao, I’m not playing, just chipping in with helping run it

[Frostysir]

There are many points i want to retort to here!

Assassin, and Smiter, are frontloaded easy dps with no drawbacks.

I was so surprised here i actually had to double check what smiter did and found that i missed fatshark changing it. But the drawbacks are still present.

Assassin gains a bunch of bonus damage on crits and headshots but on the other hand it´s less than mainstay gets on a multi stagger and it needs you to…well crit or headshot. Smiter is much better now than before but similarly to assassin it does not gain as much damage as mainstay on staggering but it applies a bit on the first hit instead. Better against lower health target but worse on higher ones relative to mainstay…also downside becomes very apparent when you cant stagger anything.

Mainstay, needs you to stagger and is useless when you dont but adds a wooping 60% bonus damage when its done thouroghly which is the highest bar none.

Enhanced power meanwhile has no requirements to activate and is the lowest but it applies on ranged weapons in addition to melee ones.

@Velsix

Elf weapons do not rely on Assassin to deal damage for the most part.

Dual blades, spear, 1hand sword and even SnD all rely on assassin to be really good a ton though? They even literally balanced dual blades around assassin during the last big balance update for one by giving it a buff where the 3rd&4th attacks gain massive crit chance buffs.

Similarly the SnD has built in bonus crit chance on 4 out of 7 attacks.

@Velsix

Any weapon with decent cleave can use Mainstay effectively,

Incorrect, you need stagger too or you cant use mainstay and many weapon might be able to cleave a bit but their damage and stagger has a massive falloff for all targets beyond the first or second.

@Velsix

Dual Daggers, the highest single target melee dps weapon in the game that already has low cleave, so it would only be affected by the crit interaction removal. Dual Daggers are really good for headshots, especially with light attacks, so I don’t see why this as an issue.

Dual daggers single target is ridiculously overrated, i mean for crying out loud to get full use off it you and your target need to stand still and you need to be allowed to attack freely.

In reality i am fairly sure many other weapons perform better in a moving fight, if consistent headshot access is a thing then rapier is the best bar none. DD heavy headshot on a dummy does ~87 while rapier charged heavy does 161.

Additionally, dual daggers suck to headshot with against beastmen hordes and is unreliable against Chaos ones.

@Velsix

1h Axe (which wouldn’t really be that affected by these changes)

Because the dang thing is useless on it´s own and this it doesnt not really matter whatever else you change?

@Velsix

Mainstay isn’t really even used on horde clearing weapons, because not being able to deal with elites and other single target threats in melee at least somewhat effectively is crippling, and because the effective horde dps increase over the other stagger talents is just not that high.

Horde clearing weapons do not necessarily have stagger?Well i suppose Dual blades for instance are much, much better with assassin. And if we look at other horde clearers like say Krubers greatsword? I did not find any recent build guides but the ones i found from this year all use mainstay.

@Velsix

It’s still a very large dps increase on elites and monsters too.
That’s a specific example. What if you’re ult is on cooldown?
If I’m WHC with the Rapier stabbing a Packmaster that’s inside of a horde is reasonable enough. It’s harder with short range weapons as it should be. It’s also doable with Kerillian’s Spear, which has the linesmen modifier on its stabs as well to aid in this.

Yours only adds damage if you are headshotting and is entirely useless otherwise, which is very damn often in a team = massive loss in DPS unless you are constantly running ahead.

As for keri spear? Yes it has a linesman modifier even on the heavy stab and a damage falloff of 50% off all targets beyond the first so if a slaverat tanks the first hit then the packmaster does not die and instead you die.

As for the rapier? It has literally 0% falloff on it´s heavy attack so no wonder you havent felt any pressure there…oh and its charged heavy deals about 2x the spear heavy stab even on armor so there is that too.

The biggest problem with the changes you suggest is that they are massive nerfs that hit a ton of stuff for no reason at all.

[Velsix]

@Frostysir

I was so surprised here i actually had to double check what smiter did and found that i missed fatshark changing it. But the drawbacks are still present.

It has no drawbacks afaik, nothing mentioned in the talent’s description. Smiter is the default system with 20% extra damage on the first target hit. Assassin also has no drawbacks.

Higher health targets are usually harder to stagger, making Mainstay only desirable for high stagger strength weapons like shields (referring to Cata).

@Frostysir

Dual daggers single target is ridiculously overrated, i mean for crying out loud to get full use off it you and your target need to stand still and you need to be allowed to attack freely.

It’s pretty damn high dps. The Rapier has higher headshot dps on infantry and berserkers. DD are higher on everything else including monsters.
Why do you need your target to stand still to make use of DD’s dps?

@Frostysir

In reality i am fairly sure many other weapons perform better in a moving fight, if consistent headshot access is a thing then rapier is the best bar none. DD heavy headshot on a dummy does ~87 while rapier charged heavy does 161.

That’s for heavy attacks against infantry. Dual Daggers have much better armour penetration and superarmour penetration and dmg than the Rapier. DD’s heavy has higher bodyshot damage on armour. The Rapier’s light attacks do slightly less damage on headshot than DD’s lights. DD’s heavy is better for headshotting at close range than the Rapier’s as well. I think Gors and Ungors have weird head hitboxes or something, even with the Rapier they don’t headshot as easily Marauders despite having a larger head. Bestigors are easier than most elites at least.

Though you bring up something that does bother me about the Rapier. It’s infantry damage is too high overall, resulting in it being excessively effective vs horde infantry and specials. If some of that damage was transferred to armour it would be a positive change I think.

@Frostysir

if consistent headshot access is a thing then rapier is the best bar non

Exec is better, the Billhook is better for multi-headshot angles, Dual Dagger lights are very accurate and less likely to clip shoulders on infantry than the Rapier’s from my experience. Tuskgor Spear is another good mult-headshot weapon, so is Kruber’s/Sienna’s 1h Sword. The 1h Axe has fantastic attack angles for headshots. Kerillian’s 1h Sword is pretty decent for headshots too.

@Frostysir

Dual blades for instance are much, much better with assassin.

Of course they are. That’s because Assassin is overpowered.

@Frostysir

And if we look at other horde clearers like say Krubers greatsword? I did not find any recent build guides but the ones i found from this year all use mainstay.

Mainstay is pointless on a weapon that already clears hordes so well. Smiter lets it effectively deal with single targets when it normally couldn’t at all, with no drawbacks.

@Frostysir

Incorrect, you need stagger too or you cant use mainstay and many weapon might be able to cleave a bit but their damage and stagger has a massive falloff for all targets beyond the first or second.

Weapons have both stagger cleave and damage cleave. Horde enemies will always get some kind of stagger provided they get hit by a weapon’s stagger cleave. Most of Kerillian’s weapons have enough stagger cleave for this to work. It’s not a matter of stagger strength, and at least half of her weapons aren’t even low stagger strength (mainly 2hs, though the 1h Axe and 1h Sword’s heavy attacks have pretty good stagger strength).

Kruber’s Greatsword for example has high damage cleave but low stagger cleave relative to the speed of the attack, often meaning it doesn’t get that much benefit from Mainstay.

I do play both Saltz and Kerillian but I’ll admit a large amount of the stagger talent suggestions came from a Saltz perspective. I’d be fine with Kerillian’s stagger talents being left unchanged so long as Saltz’ stagger talents get the changes. There’s also the option of giving Kerillian a version of Assassin that only works on crits, and Saltz a version that only works on headshots.

@Frostysir

As for keri spear? Yes it has a linesman modifier even on the heavy stab and a damage falloff of 50% off all targets beyond the first so if a slaverat tanks the first hit then the packmaster does not die and instead you die.

As for the rapier? It has literally 0% falloff on it´s heavy attack so no wonder you havent felt any pressure there…oh and its charged heavy deals about 2x the spear heavy stab even on armor so there is that too.

The Rapier’s full charge will still hit less targets than the Spear’s stabs. It doesn’t have damage drop off from cleaving with its stabs because it barely cleaves anything with its stab. It’s better to do some damage than none at all. The spear stab is also faster and has higher reach. The full charge has slightly more base damage than the Spear’s heavy stab according to Armoury (12 armour dmg for heavy stab at 0.53s speed, Rapier’s full charge is 13.25 armour dmg at 0.6s speed).

I’m surprised you haven’t found Dual Daggers easier to headshot with. You prefer the Rapier from the sounds of it.

[Frostysir]

@Velsix

It has no drawbacks afaik, nothing mentioned in the talent’s description. Smiter is the default system with 20% extra damage on the first target hit. Assassin also has no drawbacks.

Lots of info is not present in the talents descriptions x)

The issue with smiter is that if you take say a 2handed hammer and smack a bunch of enemies with a heavy then it only applies the 20% bonus to the first guy hit, the rest meanwhile take nothing extra.

Only during the next would they take 20% bonus same as mainstay, but at this point mainstay would rapidly start gaining more damage potential due to a substantially higher upper limit which yields more if basic enemies are more durable.

Like in say cata for instance.

@Velsix

Assassin also has no drawbacks.

Aside from needing to crit or headshot that is, which is less consistent across many many weapons relative to mainstay, enhanced power or even smiter.

Consistency is power, there is a reason you´d never use crit power over say power vs “…”.

@Velsix

Why do you need your target to stand still to make use of DD’s dps?

You ever tried to attack say a rat ogre using a moving combo with the daggers? Half the attacks just flat out miss and sometimes even when he is using stationary attacks. And i still really miss the times when the bleed stacked even if it was OP .<

@Velsix

Dual Daggers have much better armour penetration and superarmour penetration and dmg than the Rapier.

On bodyshots the daggers are better yes, Rapier charged heavies win on headshots and has more range though.

@Velsix

Though you bring up something that does bother me about the Rapier. It’s infantry damage is too high overall, resulting in it being excessively effective vs horde infantry and specials. If some of that damage was transferred to armor it would be a positive change I think.

I truly believe this is necessary for it to be viable at in any situation where enemies are abundant, so in cata or even legend for instance.

@Velsix

Dual Dagger lights are very accurate and less likely to clip shoulders on infantry than the Rapier’s from my experience.

Depends on the enemy, daggers are good with stormvermin but awful against chaos warriors and hitboxes against bestigors can be weird too.

@Velsix

Exec is better, the Billhook is better for multi-headshot angles, Dual Dagger lights are very accurate and less likely to clip shoulders on infantry than the Rapier’s from my experience. Tuskgor Spear is another good mult-headshot weapon, so is Kruber’s/Sienna’s 1h Sword. The 1h Axe has fantastic attack angles for headshots. Kerillian’s 1h Sword is pretty decent for headshots too.

Damage, range and speed are factors too, exe is slow while daggers short range makes them hard to use against moving chaos warriors&bestigors. It frequently happens that one of the daggers misses the head and hits the shoulderpads instead.

The spear weapons might have easy headshots but the damage is not amazing and instead the range is a bigger thing. This kinda goes for keris 1hand sword too but it doesnt really do anything well in exchange for having a silly high dodge count.

@Velsix

Of course they are. That’s because Assassin is overpowered.

A talent like that is only as overpowered as it´s products and i cannot honestly say any of them are, for instance dual swords are not…infact they kinda need it to be viable at all even post buffs i think.

@Velsix

Mainstay is pointless on a weapon that already clears hordes so well. Smiter lets it effectively deal with single targets when it normally couldn’t at all, with no drawbacks.

Smiter does improve single target but as always it´s a question of “how much?”, as is the question of “does this weapon need mainstay to do well with hordes?” Krubers greatsword&2Hammer for instance gains 1-2 points of damage on single armored target heavies with smiter vs sticking with mainstay…

@Velsix

Weapons have both stagger cleave and damage cleave. Horde enemies will always get some kind of stagger provided they get hit by a weapon’s stagger cleave.

Yes but its a question of how much stagger here, keri might hit several targets but any beyond the first recover almost instantly meaning the actual yield she gets is low.

And given that her cleave is not amazing its easy for her to end up not hitting the same targets twice in a row during a wave which leads to mainstay not doing anything at all.

@Velsix

The Rapier’s full charge will still hit less targets than the Spear’s stabs. It doesn’t have damage drop off from cleaving with its stabs because it barely cleaves anything with its stab. It’s better to do some damage than none at all. The spear stab is also faster and has higher reach. The full charge has slightly more base damage than the Spear’s heavy stab according to Armoury (12 armour dmg for heavy stab at 0.53s speed, Rapier’s full charge is 13.25 armour dmg at 0.6s speed).

I just tested on dummies, both spear 2nd heavy and rapier C-heavy could pierce 3 dummies but could not hit the armored one behind them. Additionally you are mistaken on the attacks speed!

To access the spears heavy stab attack you need to use either the sweeping heavy, a light attack or a push-attack first meaning the time needed to reach it and charge it is equal to a charged rapier thrust.

Furthermore yes the rapier only has slightly more damage on a charged bodyhit, but it has notably more on a headshot, double infact and it has crit boosts to boot.

@Velsix

I’m surprised you haven’t found Dual Daggers easier to headshot with. You prefer the Rapier from the sounds of it.

They´re easy on stormvermin most of the time but their short range and tendency to hit shoulders instead of the head make them unreliable against other stuff.

I like them for their mobility and bleeding, lets me duck and dodge while still thinning out opposing headcount.