Crit/Headshot Temporary Health Talent Idea

The Core Idea
How would charged attacks doubling the thp return sound? Like this:

  • “Melee critical strikes and headshots restore 2 temporary health. Critical headshots restore twice as much. Charged attacks double this effect.”

Reasoning
This makes crit/headshot thp more of a bridge between thp on cleave and thp on kill. Currently crit/headshot plays very much like a worse version of thp on cleave even if it is fun. Increasing the amount of thp return on charged attacks makes it significantly more flexible, turning it into an adaptable thp talent that can give decent thp returns in more situations than other thp talents at the cost of requiring headshots and crits. This buffs a thp talent that most consider weak while also making it less about spamming light attacks and more about being adaptable, not punishing the player for using charged attacks. Additionally it’s a buff that doesn’t just make it better with Dual Daggers and the Rapier, as it also makes it more competitive on weapons slower than these two like AnF, 1h Axe, Falchion etc.

For contrast:

  • Thp on cleave requires enemies you can cleave (sometimes your cleave is blocked by an elite or monster).
  • Thp on stagger requires dense blobs of enemies for good thp return (sometimes enemies will be too spread out or be ones you can’t stagger).
  • Thp on kill requires high health enemies and for you to land the killing blow (hard to make thp off of a boss while fighting it so thp decay happens, sometimes someone else is landing the last blow more consistently, sometimes you’re fighting low health enemies like Skaven or the weaker chaff enemies from Chaos like Ungors and Fanatics).
  • Thp on crit/headshot would differ in that it would work in more situations than any of these.

Potential Issues
The main issue would be the potential thp return of 16 per charged attack with dual wield weapons on critical strikes where both weapons headshot. This would be relevant for the Axe and Falchion, Dual Daggers, Dual Swords and Sword and Dagger. A simple cap of 8 (or whatever is most appropriate) can be added, like so:

  • “Melee critical strikes and headshots restore 2 temporary health. Critical headshots restore twice as much. Charged attacks double this effect. Max 8 temporary health.”

Alternatively for dual wield weapons, it could be made so that only the first weapon that hits is counted for temporary health. Dual wield weapons are generally considered to be some of the strongest weapons in the game, so this extra thp advantage with all thp talents is not needed.

If possible, making first level charged attacks only increase the amount of thp return by 50% instead of doubling it would be prudent. This would only affect the Rapier, but may be necessary as its first level charged attack (the partial) is extremely fast.

Additional Idea
There is also the idea of weakening the thp talent’s link to crits, reducing the base thp return on crit to 1 and increasing the base thp return on headshot to 3, like so:

  • “Melee critical strikes restore 1 temporary health. Melee headshots restore 3 temporary health. Critical headshots restore 4 temporary health. Charged attacks double this effect. Max 8 temporary health.”

This would make the thp talent more consistent, skill based and less reliant on high crit rates.

Any thoughts?

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This all seems very sensible to me. Want to focus in on this point briefly:

Oh boy would I appreciate this change on BH where going for max crit isn’t always desirable. Might cement the rapier even more as his prime melee weapon though, and 1h axe may not appreciate the change but 1h axe probably prefers on kill anyway so it may not matter (also that weapon has bigger issues on a class like BH).

4 Likes

Could just increase it to 3 THP per Headshot/Crit.

Like alsozara i too favor this idea^^

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What with the riposte thread, I’m starting to think you’re trying to alter WHC’s least-used talents to something that fits your ideal WHC gameplay under the guise of improving balance. We should consider two points when deciding to implement this:

  1. Would classes already inclined to take temp hp on crit benefit more from charged attacks?
  2. Would classes who do not already take this be incentivised to?

There are only 4 classes with temp hp on crit, shade, WS, BH, WHC. Which of these classes do you think your proposed changes benefit? In my opinion, elf classes do not benefit, shade is indifferent and WS would still take cleave. A lot has to do with how SnD is the meta weapon for elf, cleave is probably a stronger option for WS if using SnD because SnD’s charged headshot is not a strong attack, and shade doesn’t really care about charged headshots, she’s still getting plenty of thp from crit.

BH would definitely welcome this change. WHC would be indifferent, because for most people not at your skill level, cleave is more reliable. So in the end, what has this change accomplished, really? A buff to BH and enabling an alternative WHC playstyle for you?

I think the point you’re making is pretty fair, but Velsix did break down how it could be somewhat of a midpoint between cleave and kill. I’ve also seen Velsix say elsewhere that he thinks cleave is a bit too good, so that may play into his perception of where the balance should be THP talent wise. Agreed that as things are cleave would still be preferable for anyone with it available. Heck even with this change I’d probably still take cleave with BH if it were available with the possible exception of rapier.

Also it’s worth saying that THP talents have bigger issues than just HS/crit underperforming. Still hoping there’ll be a rework at some point since as they are they’re extremely build limiting. Who knows if FS would even consider an undertaking of that size though :man_shrugging:

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Simplest change would be:

  • Remove HS/Crit THP
  • Make heal share a necklace trait
  • Give each career stagger, cleave and on kill THP

Then balance from there.

2 Likes

I think just changing the current thp on crit talent to proc on all enemies hit during a single attack is enough. As of right now, if you manage to do 2 headshots with a single attack, you will only get the thp from 1 enemy.

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The idea was to buff it and make it a midpoint between kill and cleave, and to make it mechanically different from cleave so that it’s not all just light spam for crit/headshot, not to buff it to cleave’s level of easy thp return. I’m of the opinion that thp on cleave is too universal and easy in the first place for it to be some kind of level of strength and ease of use that crit/headshot needs to match.

Which version of the core idea are you referring to? One of them has no effect on crit return at all and would effectively be a buff for Shade with it, which Shade probably doesn’t need (it’s already viable on Shade with Shade’s crit rate).

Just look up. It’s not hard vs most enemies and I don’t get why most people aren’t getting more headshots. It’s not about aiming each swing but letting the angle you’re looking at average out a higher % of headshots. A crit bodyshot charged attack would be granting 4 thp in one of the ideas. If anything, that would make it more accessible. At worst it’s not easy as easy as on cleave, which is fine because that talent is thp on hit and shouldn’t be as universal and without weakness as it is.

I feel plenty enabled already. Swift Slaying and Rapier light attack chaining at heads is an alternative playstyle only I can make use of? Using heavy attacks aimed at heads is only something I can do? I’m certain other players can land critical bodyshots.

WHC is by default supposed to be a skill-oriented career, as is Waystalker (no damage reduction, high headshot modifiers on melee weapons) and so is Shade (all three have no damage reduction or a limited amount, and more ult return on dealing hits than on taking damage). You refer to me like I’m the only player that lands headshots which is absurd and I imagine very insulting for a lot of players.

The core idea was to make thp on crit/headshot not reliant on light spam, and not punish using heavy attacks when on low health, to make it flow into normal gameplay more smoothly.

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one potential issue that’s been brought to my attention is that Kerillian and Saltz don’t really have any weapons that synergise with stagger

Also even if we go that route stagger and kill will need a balance pass on the numbers they’re putting out since they’re unbalanced/messy currently

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Aye kill THP on trash enemies should be bought up and kill THP on elites such as Chaos Warriors should be bought down, they’re seen as health packs on careers such as GK.

I mean, if cleave exists you’ll probably pick that over HS/Crit THP right?

Ideally stagger could be tweaked to work better with slower weapons like 2h hammer.

3 Likes

James already typed out my PoV.

There is no need for Crit/HS THP. Remove it, get rid of the Healshare gimmick, and concentrate on the three remaining THP Talents. We all know how “zealous” FS is about balancing Talents. Removing one that is weird and only worth it if you dont have the fitting Talent for the desired career will benefit everyone.

(Ontop of that I never liked that a random mechanic, crits, dip into so many aspects of the gameplay. Enhancing damage is more than enough of a benefit.)

Uhh… Every single one? I know that people like to run the Glaive and the Spear on WS. I’ve also been running the 1-handed sword recently. Are these meta? No. Are they fun though? Yes. Since I know that I can reliably hit headshots, I’d take crit/headshot over cleave, any day. BH too would indeed benefit from this. And so would WHC with Shade being a given.

If crit/headshot for thp would compensate the player for the skill necessary to hit headshots, I’d take it. We now have arrived at the conclusion. Hitting headshots requires skill. So, this would be a talent for the skilled players. Just like it is now. What changed exactly? Skill is now properly rewarded and crit/headshot for thp would be viable? Yes please.

5 Likes

If the easy, universal band-aid talent exists? Sure. That doesn’t mean a fun, skill based thp talent can’t exist for people to have fun with, so long as it’s viable relative to the difficulty. It currently even with weapons that don’t have to use charged attacks often, like the Rapier, but isn’t on ones like the Falchion or Greatsword. That’s why I suggested increasing the return on charged attacks.

That, or we could just homogenise the thp system and give everyone the same stuff, even if it’s thematically off for some careers.

There’s no ‘need’ for any thp that isn’t thp on cleave for any weapon except for the 1h axe. Even Dual Daggers and Dual Axes work with thp on cleave. Even stagger weapons like the 1h Mace work with on cleave.

There’s no benefit for Kerillian and Saltz having on stagger except for Handmaiden with the Spear and Shield (which doesn’t even have a shield bash) and potentially Flail on Zealot if stagger thp was made to still take stagger into account on enemies you’ve killed, and even if that were the case on cleave would probably still be better with the flails except vs very high densities.

Hardly random anymore. Crits are pretty reliable now. One of the ideas lessens the relationship to crits anyway.

I agree with this, and I take back a little bit about what I said earlier about averaging out headshots by looking at an upwards angle. It is more complex than what I said, but I do think it’s a good way for a lot of players to start getting more headshots.

The charged attack change, which is the whole reason for the post? In the first suggestion (without link to crit weakened), Velsix is advocating for a buff to thp on charged attacks. My point is that this proposed buff is meaningless on elf weapons. You’ve mentioned the spear and the glaive, they are perfect examples of my point. Under pressure, their charged attacks are hard to pull off.

How did you get this whole post from my words? I literally just said, a majority of the playerbase find cleave more reliable, and you somehow interpreted this as you being the only one that lands headshots. In the first place, I never thought it was a discussion about headshots. It was specifically about charged attack interaction with thp on crit, and my point was that your suggestion is flawed and buffing it to be a midpoint is not through charged attacks.

You started talking about how I wanted this to enable the way I play. Do you know how I play? I aim for headshots and dodge. What’s your point?

How does that mean it’s meaningless? Because it’s hard, it shouldn’t get rewarded? You completely missed SlashKex’s point about headshots and skill.

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Just offering the simplest solution, Cleave, Stagger and Kill covers a pretty broad selection of weapons.

Maybe cleave is too good and overlaps with stagger on a lot of weapons, maybe HS/Crit, Stagger and Kill would make more sense balance wise, who knows.

Health recovery could be toned back but return green health to discourage hit trading and THP farming. + Zealot tweaks obviously. There’s a lot of possibilities.

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…I mean, this can be said for attackspeed and stagger too you know?

Attackspeed boosts your damage, it improves the animation speed of your weapon which allows for more canceling and quick reactions, it also has the benefit of allowing better control against hordes.

More attacks = more stagger + more crits = more damage.

Stagger? Boosts your damage against targets affected, stops them from attacking in turn, boosts control.

Crit? Boosts damage, enables better armor pen, triggers swift slaying for attackspeed, adds up to a whole lot.

Right now critbuilds are generally strong or arguably overpowered in some cases due to access to swift slaying which in turn is just attackspeed. Take that attackspeed away and the only strong crit users left are WHC and Shade who dont rely all too much on it.

…Possibly handmaiden too who can use willow stance to stack a lot of attackspeed anyway.

I’d like this very much. I enjoyed Verm1’s system a lot more. THP is an interesting concept, but in the environment of the game it quickly becomes meaningless and turns enemies that should be threats into resources. Some stuff from back in the first game should probably be toned down a bit so that one cast of conflagration into a horde + bloodlust sword doesn’t bring you from 1 hp to full, but overall it made for more interesting and tense gameplay.

If I recall, back in the very early pre-release versions of Verm2 there existed no healing outside of medical supplies, but that would make it far too punishing and frustrating.

The charged attack buff to temp hp on crit doesn’t do anything for these weapons because charged attacks are not the attacks you would be pulling off with spear and glaive as a WS under pressure. You’re focused on the effects of your suggestion in a vacuum, while I’m thinking of in-game situations.

How did you go from “enabling the way you play” to “the general playerbase cannot hit headshots?”

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