I just cant seem to make this talent fly, even on high crit careers. It seems, like on cleave, to scale best with attack speed. However, on kill is still better when available.
Why is on kill so dominant? I dont get it.
Is there a way to make it competitive with on kill if you get a lot of elite kills?
Because on kill is straight forward, no gimmicks, and the game provides enough variety of enemies to provide viable health. Besides general nerfs to thp and enemies getting buffed, nothing else really lets you trade hits except stagger health with shield.
I think it depends on what weapon you use. When I play Waystalker, I tried cleave but hated it because it didn’t seem to work out very well. I instead use the crit/headshot(the only time I’ve used it) because with Sword and Dagger it actually works well. The weapon has lots of crit, attacks fast, and is pretty easy to headshot with.
On Shade, I use on kill. The carnage against elites is so potent and despite having high crit chance, the bigger enemies give such a potent and immediate reward that it completely outweighs the crit choice for my playstyle on Shade. Killing a chaos warrior equates to a huge chunk of health. Even Gors are juicy contributors.
Like you mentioned, I think getting a lot of elite kills is what really makes kill THP valuable. If you’re not getting a lot of melee elite kills, it isn’t really worth it.
On Kill is the only reliable one.
Crit is RNG and I can’t seem to get consistent Headshots with many melee weapons, I suspect lag might be a factor.
Stagger as has been said is good only with certain weapons. But it has gimmicky interactions with Shield Slams on Hordes that make it very good.
And Cleave may as well not exist. You can walk into a Skaven horde as a Mercenary with an executioner sword and get nearly nothing out of it. The nerfs to the skill itself, Cleave in General, and enemy mass all compound to make THP on Cleave the dead last choice. Pick any other option over it. Take Healshare before you take THP on Cleave.
I think something has got to be wrong with the talent.
Like with ranger bardin I’m at 100% up time on 30% DR from headshots. However, with shade on SnD I’m THP negative from fights even though headshots are way easier to land. I just dont understand. Do you get 2 THP per head shot or not? Is there a cooldown on it or something?
Take a look at fast weapons like dagger on pyro with AS on Cata (even UC) with on Cleave. The attack speed and the number of hits required make it a great THP generator.
With stagger, the pushes generate decent THP so the weapons with 0.5 stamina pushes are pretty consistent THP generators too.
I’m not sure how true this actually is, but it also seems that the increase in enemies’ health has also affected THP on Kill, as that scales to enemy health (and armour). Especially some horde enemies gaining over 70% buffs to their health (and through that, the health gained from them) would make a big difference.
The reason I’m not sure whether this is actually true is that I haven’t tested anything, and I don’t know whether the scaling health gain is actually coded as a direct relation to the health of the enemies or whether it’s been hand-set for each enemy. The former case is probably the simpler one, or at least less labor-intensive, and exactly the one that’d help the Talent now. If the latter case is true, there has been no change to the Talent’s effectiveness, and in that case the feeling comes only from the others seeming or being less effective now.
That said, I think that the Crit/HS talent is still quite applicable on the same setups and Careers it worked on before. The enemies push on far more now, which makes aiming at the heads harder, and lag certainly plays a part too, but you can still gain reasonable amount of THP from it. On Kill has somewhat surpassed it, but it’s certainly more usable than On Cleave.
Try playing Witch Hunter Captain with rapier. If you take the career talent that gives you 100% melee crit and try to aim at head level, you can very quickly build temporary HP.
That said, temp HP talents definitely need work. Just wanted to chime in with that info.
On kill always will be more viable. Previously cleave and crit talent giving up to 15 thp per swing were absolutely no brain. You just swing and dont die.
Now you filling ypur health bar relatevly slower, so to prevent next hit end up knocking you down you have to melee more. And this is risk. And no one want to risk when you are low hp.
Thp on kill provides good amount of burst heal (low risk high reward). And teamplay and coop makes it even easier (“Guys, let me finish those 2 CW/bestigors/maulers.”)
Because Fatshark has destroyed the other tHP talents… it would be enough bring the tHP like in 1.6.
They havent really destroyed them. They are fine, until you play cata.
A long time ago I tested THP on kill for various enemies. They have specific quantities they give. E.G. bosses, despite having enormous hp, gave 50 hp. SV give 8. Warpfires give 8. Bestigors 15. CW 30. Slaves/clanrats/fanatics give the same(1). Ungor 2. Gor 3. THP on kill isn’t percentage based and the changes to enemy health won’t affect it unless Fatshark specifically changes the THP numbers for on kill. But yes, in general, the tougher an enemy, the more the hp.
How can they be fine?
tHP on cleave simply doesn’t exist. You MUST NO use it, regardless build or weapon;
tHP on crit/hs is too random… before, with certain styles it was a “winning bet”; currently it is just a risk (you choose it if you haven’t a better option);
tHP on stagger is good but strictly linked to some few weapons. Or you use that weapons or you don’t gain tHP;
tHP on kill the only good talent… but just good, not great. If the game spawns mainly Skaven hordes, you will not gain nothing. And you must compete against your teammates to “steal” Elites;
If the solution is nerf tHP on kill, I just quit the game. Talents must be reworked and in general buffed.
100% yes. I don’t know why Fatshark wanted to remove THP, but it’s very clear they wanted this mechanic to be much less available. They removed it from WHC, Merc’s Ult no longer has a way to get more THP when before it had 2, almost every way to gain THP was nerfed or outright removed from the game. Which sucks because it’s a great mechanic that encourages melee fighting.
Here’s the THP numbers for On Kill, just so you have them, as provided by @Nayre:
BreedTweaks.bloodlust_health = {
beastmen_horde = 1.5,
chaos_roamer = 3,
skaven_special = 8,
chaos_warrior = 30,
skaven_elite = 8,
beastmen_roamer = 3,
chaos_elite = 15,
beastmen_elite = 15,
skaven_horde = 0.5,
chaos_special = 10,
skaven_roamer = 1,
monster = 50,
chaos_horde = 1 }Well thats very poor reason you know. Just dont get hit. If you cant manage current difficulty whatever you play just make a step back and relearn/wait for beastmen bugfixes.
About skaven. Reward on kill is low, so as risk. They are weaker enemies compared to gor, arent they?
And about competing to kill elites. And struggling against skaven at the same time. Take cleave/stagger if you feel like you will be outclassed by BH rangekilling or shade popping off
Thats a game. All games have rules. You need to make decisions. If you dont want to, and just want to faceroll everything, like some do in storytelling games, lower the difficulty and rofl through. Or use starigh broken builds - wait for balance patches Kappa
You know, they are just for different purposes.
Any time I would feel “I wont take hit from beastmen horde” I would wear off that “on kill” and use cleve/stagger. Not to mitigate 75hp hits on cata. To mitigate a bit of gas, a bit of warpfire/gunfire as well as friendlyfire.
Same goes for crit. If I have idk Kruber and UC in my team, which I know I speak with I will use “on crit” with high crit build cause i know, both of them can help me gaining chunks of my healt bar back if I need it. And to completely top it off I would use crits.
If I play ranged (BH for example) and I barely go into melee with my non-existent ammo consumption I would go “on kill” and if I need, I will ask team to leave two half dead elites for me, or last hit boss you know.
If I play absolute QP legend with teamcomp of Huntsman, Pyro, RV and Handmaiden. Well, that just reason why this comp will barely success. This game pretty straight forward. You are bloody ubersreik four, you have to melee time to time. And if your teamcomp is poor melee or basically range focused, you are screwed at first ambush/tunnel horde. And thats not THP problem at all.
Just think of HP as a resourse. Most viable you have in game. You will waste it. You will take damage from time to time. Either burst (melee) or poke (gas/fire/ff/ratling). If non of your team can manage to withstand burst just because of overall low healthbar/dmg reduction, he will hit the floor at some moment and die. If you cannot regain health to prevent poke drastically affect your health level through the run, same will happen - death.
There are 2 literally healers in game - merc and uc. They can help team to withstand both poke and burst. There are hero that can help with high burst - IB (just taunt everything). Understanding that will make you not play QP in full ranged pepega lowhealth no healthgain comp and trying to succeed.
There are also trait for necks that helps you with your health managment trough run. Something like barkskin is and boon is just overall good picks.
There’s probably still a problem with “on stagger” tHP differs that much from weapon to weapon. I ve seen plenty of my friend shield axe ironbreaker just straight gaining HP under two waprfires, gunner and a beastmen horde buffed by banner pressure on top of it.
You can never achieve that by cleave or whatever other talents. Its back to 1.62 dual hammers slayer broken, when you just load into onslaught with 400 ping, dodge nothing and still survive.
And here we come to the point. If they buff theses (crit / cleave) talents so they can easily provide tHP to withstand next BURST dmg incoming, they will become mandatory. And game will turn into faceroll again.
Looks like the numbers havn’t changed, but with the larger hordes these days there’s just more THP to get from them.
So they’re hardcoded, and the numbers haven’t changed, so most of the feeling of change is due to comparison to the other Talents. But I also see that Beastmen give relatively high amounts, the same as Chaos, which can be a part of it. Especially as their hordes primarily consist of Gors, which I think correspond to the "roamers"entry in that. More damage through the stagger bonuses also may make killing things easier, especially by accident, and at least earlier On Cleave and On Stagger didn’t give anything if that strike killed the enemy in question.
On crit is good when you’re WHC - then you can take ult talent that makesn each of your melee hits during ult a crit and just cut off heads of infantry and elites with light attacks, getting huge amounts of THP when it’s needed the most. It also works great on bosses, unlike cleave and stagger, and you don’t need elites for it to work well, just cut as fast as possible with your rapier.
Without ult and crit talent (the one that gives party +5% crit when taggable enemy dies) this talent requires a lot of headshots, again, doable with rapier thrust.
So it’s not that bad, but only on certain loadouts. Too bad WHC has to use non-elegant axe or axe and falchion to get the most from “crit” part when not on ult (ult even without guaranteed crits grants a huge amount of thp since +25% crit chance is great too) since rapier (and also falchion and billhook) has no crit chance bonus.