THP on kill
With thp on cleave being on a good way now there are weapons where you have to take thp on kill now. That leads to an issue though as by design thp on kill has a huge flaw.
You dont get any if you dont get the killing blow. That is imo against the coop part. Instead of working together you fight for the kills.
That leads to people not wanting to stand together like the new stagger dmg increase suggest but spread out to get some thp. Thats kinda unfun imo.
Another minor thing is that thp isnt based on enemy hp directly but just fixed values and afaik the numbers didnt change with WOM’s hp increase of enemies.
Ive got 2 ideas to fix/change this.
Grant the thp on kill based upon the dmg you did (and to not make it op for cleave weapons just for the 1st target hit).
Change it so its actually on hit and not on kill but lower the numbers a bid (probably still need to make it count only for the 1st target to not make it op for high cleave weapons).
thp on stagger
With thp on cleave not being the optimal choice for most weapons anymore stagger is more often the choice. Stagger however has a huge issue. It doesnt grant any thp when the enemy dies.
This makes it kinda crappy against lowtier enemies. Which in return forces again forces you to either push way more than you would need to overwise (even with weapons with an inherent stagger design) or fight with the guys who have to use kills for elites as you get more hits on those.
A (low) but steady income of thp even if the enemy dies would be a great change here. Or more optimal if possible grant the thp you would have gained if the enemy was alive even when hes dead.
“IMHO they should just merge THP on cleave and kill and base it on damage dealt and everybody would be happy. It would work with high cleave weapons and with single target weapons, with hordes, elites and bosses, and nobody would be mad about dealing high dmg to a tough target just to have that kill stolen by a teammate. Just leave THP on stagger for low dmg weapons. Head/crit works on some careers (not BH) but it would also be redundant (crits and headshots mean more dmg). So everybody could have the same choice: THP on stagger, THP on damage or healshare.”
Sure, mostly on tanks, but this way you have a choice between being a tank or dps. Maybe you want to be an off-tank on ranged career, cause your gun can handle elites etc. Unless they do a talent for THP on ranged dmg only.
Imho I would prefer three talents about tHP… health shared is a little bit overshadowed. Anyway yep, we need a rework. For example ranged careers should always have tHP on cleave, tank on stagger, crowd control on kill.
Agreed with the OP, those two solutions would go a long way to improve things.
As I’ve posted elsewhere, I also think all careers should at least have THP on Cleave, THP on Stagger AND THP on Kill available as a baseline. Careers that only have THP on Cleave and THP on Stagger are by default gimped in the THP department if they take a weapon with bad CC and bad cleave, e.g. Crowbill on Battle Wizard.
Healshare could even be moved to a necklace trait if FS are anyway wanting to reduce the overabundance of THP, but personally I’m in favour of having the THP and stagger talent tiers be an exception to the rule of three and having more choices. The reason being that (apart from on crit/HS which thematically suit huntsman, Shade, WHC and Pyromancer most), those talents are themed around weapon choice not career choice, and yet the ones you get to pick from are bound to your current career.
Id disagree with the suggestion of streamlining the thp talents for every career. Yes some thp talents dont fit. Aka huntsman should have cleave instead of stagger.
But thats sth thats not the same for everyone. THP talents need to be adjusted based on possible weapons. Cleave itself is at a good spot right now. But some weapons just shouldnt benefit from it.
I disagree as, again, how THP works is weapon-based, not career-based. Atm you end up with weapons that are disadvantaged just because you take them on a specific career (and career-exclusive weapons anyway exist in the game)
imo Huntsman should have the THP on headshot/crit talent, that fits him the most thematically. Stagger is indeed out of place on him though, I agree
Thats my point though. Talents shouldnt be the same for everyone but based upon the available weapons.
I disagree though that huntsman works good with crit/hs. That talent is usually best if you can headshot consistently. Most kruber weapons cant to that though. What weapon can that? Exe and 1h sword maybe. Heavy spear now aswell. Thats not much imo. More of his weapons work good with kill instead of crit/hs. But I agree that stagger is crap. That is only good with shields and huntsman shouldnt be using shields. That leaves mace and maybe mace n sword. Stagger is deplaced.
The crowbil currently has low Thp generation. Little to no cleave and smalll stagger ability. Oddly enough the flail which staggers everything works better with reckless (multi target) than stagger THP generation.
On 1st point — still will not fix ranged guys sniping out elites, you were counting on as thp snacks, but it is a start. Was using thp on kill as a slayer/zealot for about a year now, when bounty hunter/huntsman/pyro and whatnot enters the party I know my thp generation will be limited for the run. Especially true with multiple strong ranged guys in the party. Still, flamethrowers were the bane of cleave thp, so it depends. Your solution doesn’t help those offended by dawi/wizard flaming on the hordes, and using thp on stagger/cleave, btw.
On 2nd point — I was against this strange “you killed it = no thp for you” on stagger from the moment it became a thing. Agreed.
If we combine cleave and kill it will be too strong, I think, even with cleave being as meager as it is now. Will become a new no-brainer. Just buff the cleave back more, it is still pathetic.
Not necessarily. I like Naugdil’s suggestion of having the choice between damage, stagger and healshare. Basically, yeah, damage would be the go-to choice for most of the players, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, as the other options still fill a niche. Stagger is for low damage weapons, like shields, and healshare is for ppl who are more team-minded and/or use ranged a lot.
I think it would be vastly superior to the current meta, where people compete for the kills or struggle with poorly implemented or balanced builds. THP should be a core feature, not something you have to strive for. You should focus on the game mechanics, not something so artificial.
PS I used to choose the arguably OP - for some weapons - old health on cleave just because i wouldn’t have to compete or be careful about THP gain, and i could just enjoy the game
Yeah, I had same experience. Still, I would like something to be done with the problem of “hey I wanted that kill!” instead of creating new “go-to, unless niche” skill.
Kinda off-topic, but best case scenario, I want all stagger/thp talents on their own little interface page, and 2 rows of new talents in their place for each career. Hate same’ish talents on each and every char, new talents are more diverse and creative than old ones — which is very cool — but some good unique are gone (BW bcr, FK stamina on ult, etc) — shove them back, and add new ones, too.