What's in need of adjustment? - The unpopular list

Time to collect some more unpopularity points. Thanks to a very recent thread concerning powercreep ( The Powercreep Problem - Vermintide 2 / Vermintide 2 - Feedback - Fatshark Forums), I think there may be at least a slight tailwind for talking about adjusting stuff. I will try to separate this into mainly two “tiers” with a list of “more obvious stuff” (obviously containing SotT) and “more personal pet peeves”. The list just contains stuff I got right now in my head and does not vouch for completeness. There might be overtuned things I just can’t remembered or I don’t have sufficient experience to give a fair judgement. I may or may not offer a suggestion how to change, depends on case and motvation. I will also not cover changes to boring/underperforming talents. Most of the stuff mentioned in Tier 2 is something I made threads about in the past. Also be warned, that this will be a lots of text.


Tier 1 - The Powercreep (aka the list I may get support with / the conservative list)

  • Masterwork Pistol: The Masterwork Pistol does damage. Like lots of damage. The LMB hereby has a stark range drop-off (if stark enough is another question) and a delay in firing. Overall, the LMB has some drawbacks for the power it holds. The RMB on the other hand is just dishing out damage like mad without any delay. Most obviously this can be seen on its monster damage. It does lots of damage in short time.
    Potential solutions: I would favourise something what I call “Pressure loss”. This means while shooting with RMB each subsequent bullet loses damage/power as you don’t give the weapon enough time to build up pressure. Simplified it the six bullets would do damage 100/80/60/40/20/0 % and the pressure loss would count until reload (if you don’t waste the whole clip). This would effectively half its monster damage dps and also reduce the elite clear potential. Another (easier and more boring) solution would be to reduce clipsize to three bullets.

  • Moonfire Bow: The Moonfire Bow does everything … excellent. Not average, not good. Excellent. Even on Cataclysm you can kill most/all specials with a measely charged bodyshot. The only “drawback” is that you can only shoot five arrows before depleted. However, this is not really an issue. For starters, you don’t play alone. Outside of your team dying (and having made errors before) you will not have to shoot so many specials alone. Also, the bar recharges pretty fast. Also the main damage is by dots. And they don’t have a damage drop-off. The bow is also AoE damage and has large stagger. And you don’t have to watch ammo. That is a lot of benefit for little drawback. It may be okay for weapons which can be easily used by less skilled players. However such weapons shouldn’t be strong enough to be the potential top-contender of all weapons. Moonfire Bow is for a reason the most picked weapon with an overwhelming majority (Javelins may change this, at least for a while).
    Potential solution: Well, good question. It is a magical explosion, so removing stagger would feel wrong. In the same manner damage drop-off for DoT feels equally wrong. This leaves two options mostly. Reducing the recharge speed / total capacity of the bow or decreasing the DoT damage. Alternatively, I want to suggest another idea. Leave recharge/overall damage as it is. However, increase the time for the DoT to apply fully. Like it still does the same damage but it takes four to eight times as long as right now (I will ignore the potential horror this will cause with Friendly Fire). It is still powerful but it gives enemies ample time to take revenge before they die (right now the DoT is applied in the time most enemies are in stagger state).

  • Sister of the Thorn: The sheer amount of discussions across all boards should be indication enough that there is an issue (and I have never before seen so many people agreeing on something). Let’s just say that she does noticeable damage for a support career.
    Potential solution: I’ll keep it as short as possible since we have enough discussion about SotT. Solutions here are not aiming for a rework or taking away from her unique playstyle. Radiant Inheritance should need three applied Radiance Stacks before activing. This would increase the cooldown to three minutes which is far more reasonable for such a large buff. Morai-Heg’s Doomsight should guarantee two critical hits (or maybe just one) for the whole team whenever SotT uses her career skill (practically reversing cause and benefector). Bloodrazor Thicket should have 10 % less power and 30-50 % of its damage should be shifted from impact to bleed damage with a prolonged bleeding period (similar to the suggested change for the Moonfire Bow). Because right now it kills Legend SV on impact. This is a Thornwall, not a shredder. It should bleed you to death.

  • EDIT - Old version: Potentially other new weapons: Hard to gauge. But other new weapons also raise the average weapon power level. Trollhammer Torpedo has a lot of ammonition for its power, Coghammer does everything to well with an Executioner-like charge attack, Coruscation stuff is arguably the best staff for high density situations and Griffon Foot shreds anything not armored in miliseconds. Most of them are standing on the tip. But if someone wants to give opinion about them, feel free.)

  • EDIT - New version: After thinking more about it, I think that other new weapons may also be in need for adjustment. This should be done more carefully though. The one I personally use the most - the Coruscation staff - I would change by increase the duration of the RMB by 25 % while decreasing the damage per second by 20 %. This gives it the same overall damage but needs more control and better placement to make the best out of it. Maybe also slightly increase heat cost for the VERY potent LMB.
    Trollhammer has to many shots. There are various ways to go about this. Taking away the interaction with ammo regeneration traits & talents would help. In addition, we could think about giving it an absolute finite ammo of ammo meaning it can’t stock up on crates and pouches. Ammo can be adapted for this. I think one shot every two minutes is reasonable making for a 10 to 12 total ammo count with zero possibility for getting new during a mission.
    Griffonfoot I haven’t played myself but they have the same issue as other horde eliminating weapons (Swiftbow, Flamethrower, Grudgerake). They are simply very boring to play with as team mates because they make 70 % of the enemies vanish. Griffonfoot has the additional issue that you can shoot subsequentially multiple times before the need to reload.


Tier 2 - Personal Issues (aka the list I will get flak for)

While I do not agree with the result of the weapon buff fiesta, I will not vouch for changing anything there. There is no point in going back and forth on such stuff. More interesting balance can be achieved in other ways:

  • Crit chance: I do not know any other game with multiple characters/classes to chose for where EVERY career can have a crit chance of at least 15 % independent from weapon choice. And there is a reason for this. Best reason: It is nearly unbalanceable. Also, it is potentially broken.
    Potential solution: Remove the crit chance property from the game. I can not overstate the benefits enough this change would have. Swift Slaying uptime would be more reasonable, Helborg’s Tutelage/Smiter would be more reasonable picks, Scrounger would trigger more reasonable, Bounty Hunter would appear stronger, WHC’s Killing Blow would trigger less often, … Issue: It would be a PR nightmare, cause enough salty whining to increase sea level by 3 meters and would need lots of rerolling as consequence. Should it be done anyway? Yes.

  • Infinite Ammo: On any career. Right now it is pretty difficult to run out of ammo. This shouldnt be the case. There may be a case for ranged careers but it is pretty much possible on each career.
    Potential solution: As said before removing crits would help with keeping Scrounger in-line. For Conservative Shooter it should half the maximum ammo a hero can carry. As a result of these changes, ammo talents would also become more interesting. Could also make space for new properties increasing ammo by 10 %.

  • Killing Blow: For a swift light crit to the head anything below CW will fall. I don’t think there is any passive or skill in the game which scales this well with difficulty. I like the effect it should be there but occur less often. If we remove crit properties it would be more reasonable in trigger chance (outside of Fervency).

  • Swift Slaying: To much benefit, to much uptime, and many weapons feel silly/awful with so much AS. Removing crit chance properties would make the uptime more reasonable on many careers. Alternatively/additionally the calculation formula could be changed to create a “softcap”.

  • Assassin: Assassin is an idiotic amount of damage for either simple headshots or even simpler for critting (with 15 % Miniumum chance). It simply does to much damage and on three careers which really don’t need the dps at all. Generally, the Stagger talents could need some rework. There are reasons why an unification may makes sense. However, I urge Fatshark to do this carefully. The worst thing they could do is give every career (a weakened version of) Assassin. The second worst they could do is giving every career Smiter (as it is right now). Numbers which (in my opinion) still hold up to now can be found as a thread in the last BBB (should still be accessible for FS).

  • Group THP talents: Just mentioning them shortly. There is a thread somewhere explaining what bugs me about these.

  • Hagbane: As I did answer this in the comments already anyway. Hagbane is strong, insanely strong. However, at least in public cataclysm games it was rarely seen even before Moonfire Bow. So one could make a case of the weapon needing more skill to be effective which could make the power more reasonable and rewarding. If nerfing it, I would start conservative: Remove stagger from Superarmor Headshots, as well as damage to Globadiers.

  • UC - Pushing Strength: Also because it was mentioned in the comments. I still don’t like the idea of her pushing strength increasing with overcharge. It allows a lot of silly stuff, especially with Flaming Flail. Please FS, revert this change (or at least half the bonus). As a compromise, add the pushing strength for overcharge into Chain Reaction. It makes the talent competitive and more interesting. Then Chain Reaction would complement the Coruscation staff perfectly with the staff having no stagger at all but all the burning and the melee pushing strength being increased. Also still don’t like Abandon. But I fear that I won’t get rid of that one.

Now a few career-related issues. Generally, for the three careers I will mention, they are all somehow in need for a rework/rebalance.

  • Zealot range power buff: There is literal no reason why his power stacks should apply to his ranged weapons. Also, he gets a lot of benefits for no reason while hiding behind a THP wall AND an undying passive. Should be reworked to be more interesting in general. Something like conflicting buffs would be interesting.

  • Bright Wizard: Lots of Safe Damage, defense capability and lots of stagger. All at the same time. BW also would benefit from a rework, making different builds more distinctive while eliminating the one for all. Examples of this could be changing Famished Flames to reduce all non-burn attck’s power by 30 %, Kaboom having more damage but decreased stagger and Burnout having twice stagger but doing less damage.

  • Pyromancer with Volan’s Doctrine: Sienna on Pyromancer and BW slows down with overcharge. One reason is lore to demonstrate the danger of using to much magic, another reason is balance. With Pyromancer and UC we have two careers getting bonuses on high overcharge. Ideally players will be as high as possible. However, this should be come with a risk. For UC this is in place with her Blood Magic passive. She is always in danger of exploding. For Pyromancer, this is in place with the slow down. This is an actual interesting gameplay here. Each player has to find his personal sweet spot where he can still manage the overcharge slowdown to get most benefit. With the introduction of Volans Doctrine, this element has been reduced to ashes though. You get the full benefit with absolutely zero risk. Volans Doctrine is a design fault and shouldn’t be in Pyromancer’s talent tree or even worse passive list. There are options though to give it some drawback to actually make it interesting again. An example for this would be tying the “no overcharge slowdown” to killing an elite in melee (counts for five seconds). Could help for a necessary rework with making more distinctive melee/range/other thingy builds. Right now Pyromancer also has this one for all build with high crit melee and range and no slowdown.
    Edit add to Pyromancer in the unlikely case that FS searches inspiration for a potential Pyromancer rework: I really like the idea of replacing Volane’s Doctrine with a conditioned talent which works like this: “Killing an Elite in melee removes overcharge slowdown and overcharge can’t decrease for 6 s.” With such a talent you could play a high crit melee fighter which doesnt have to watch for decreasing heat. But he could also not use ranged attacks at a certain point because overcharge could still increase. Eases up getting the highest crit chance on melee with a noteable drawback. Would have to be tested if balanced already.
    On the same row you could make another talent “Killing a special will make you are unable to overheat for 10 seconds.” With this you would be a high crit ranged balista which has the overcharge slowdown though, making you accessible for melee attacks. So people could chose to be the mobile melee fighter OR the slow moving magical ballista.


And with this I’m done for the moment. What is in your Tier 1 list (the obvious outlier)?

12 Likes

Yes yes yes pls remove crits and overhaul the properties and trait system. It was flawed from the very beginning.

Didn’t Fatshark say they planned to do another Big Balance Patch at some point last year? Wasn’t the Huntsman rework delayed with it as well iirc? I’m generally curious if most careers or weapons won’t receive any major overhauls until the last 2 DLC careers are out. Making it so they can balance all 20 together and not end up reworking 18 only for the last 2 to be much stronger as well.

I don’t know about Fatshark, but I am willing to make my own balance mod at this point.

1 Like

They said same thing about deeds long time ago ;p

For the first time in a long time, I am actually willing to agree with you.

I believe those were put on hold for content/bug fixes, but hopefully the balancing is still in the works.

I want to say, I’m glad that, while the game has a few outliers in being too good or too bad, I feel like overall we’ve got the most usable weapons we’ve ever had.

I actually think that OP’s changes might be over-nerfing SotT - it definitely needs reigning in, but we don’t want the career to become garbage. If you try playing her without Radiant Inheritance, she feels solid but not overwhelming, with a large part of her strength being that she’s just pretty tanky against chip damage over the course of the game. And I have no problem with Radiant Inheritance in concept; I’d look at her bonus damage against wounded enemies passive, perhaps knock it down a peg or two. And then I’d either lower Radiant Inheritance to just being more moderate in effect (perhaps 20% power, 10% attack speed, 10% crit, 20% crit power) and/or giving it a two minute cooldown on its own. Three seems excessive IMO. I don’t think Bloodrazor Thicket needs changing at all, tbh. An Executioner Sword heavy can one-shot a Stormvermin; having an ult that can do that (but can’t one-shot a Chaos Warrior) seems fine. The bigger problem is just that her base ult is so underwhelming.

Moonfire Bow and Masterwork Pistol are both OP, and surely need a bump down, no disagreement there.

Something I’d like to hear more thoughts on, though, is how to improve the underperforming weapons. What do we do about one-handed axes? I really think they need a little more cleave power. Not enough that they lose their identities, but enough that they’re not so bad to use.

I very strongly support the crit changes, incidentally. I feel like that and Attack Speed are both far too stackable. Perhaps it fits on some careers (like Slayer), but overall seems just too easy to stack.

I mostly agree with you.

I’d add these in too.

As an elgi main, I thought Moonbow was good at first, but after playing more with it, and being able to get Hunter up with no risk, due to ammo not being an issue, I think it’s pretty OP now. Especially because of it’s versatility. The Elite damage is a bit too strong imo.

The ease of use with Moonbow to it’s payoff is just a little too high.

The Crit spam with SoTT, also being able to maintain Hunter is really thematic, but also makes her super strong. Inheritance and Bloodthorn are also super strong when stacked.

1 Like

Because most games are not so melee heavy where everyone, even the mages, will be knee deep in enemies every so often. And you forgot a part about where if swift slaying/crit get shafted then we´d need massive reworks for a ton of weapons.

This is not a good thing.

All you´d accomplish would be raising the value the WHC career, sure he´d be a bit weaker but he´d be even more extremely important between the power of fervency and unending hunt for teamwide crit spam.

Many higher levels of the game are now balanced around there being silly high ammo sustain, removing that would take a lot of major work to smooth things out.

Which on the other hand means you have to headshot nonstop which is easier said than done with most weapons. Or have sky high crit constantly which only WHC or shade really pulls off.

1 Like

What 1h axes need or atleast what bard and salts 1h axes need are a tad more power/damage. I would need to actually look at the numbers to give a recommendation but I would guess maybe ~10% more damage, I wouldn’t touch cleave at all. They currently sit in alright place for base cata but are simply outclassed by other options. That said, any nerf to crit chance or attack speed will nudge towards/make 1h axe unusable. So if any of OP’s proposed changes to crit chance and especially attack speed are implemented 1h axe will need some drastic changes.
Overall 1h axe is actually not in a horrible position it just requires a bit more effort to perform at the level of other weapons and even then it is outclassed once difficulties past cata 1 are in play.

A few thoughts / ideas that I’d think would go a looong way and would be relatively easy to implement:

  • Remove the entire stagger-damage talent row from every career. Just gone. Poof. The stagger-damage system by itself is actually a really good thing, but the talent row messes it up. Removing the row will nerf the overperforming careers most, because it takes Assassin and Smiter out of the equation. Especially Assassin is a ridiculous talent. Doing this will lessen the gap between overperformers and classes that are fine a good bit. And the talents themselves are completely incomprehensible for everybody that doesn’t regularly visit online communities anyways.

  • Crit damage gets nerfed hard, and / or crit chance gets nerfed hard as per your idea. (I like it.) Crits are one of the biggest sources of balance problems and power disparity in this game. Especially since the most overpowered stuff is always tied to crit anyways.

  • Monsters / bosses and the disparity in monster damage different careers do is a HUGE issue for the balance in this game. Without equipment, one career might be able to kill monsters in < 60 seconds, while another needs to chip away at it for 10 minutes non-stop without interruptions to do the same amount of damage. Having some loadouts being better against monsters is a good thing, but the disparity between loadouts is far too big to work. A class that specializes in something else might outperform monster killers on that aspect, but not nearly as much as they are outperformed against monsters by a monster killer. And monsters arevactually a big part of the balance in this game. The current situation is completely unbalanceable and monsters are either a cakewalk or a slog. Playing Chaos Wastes highlights this problem in a big way. My fix would be to reduce monster hitpoints by about half, and nerf the monster damage of most offensive ults into the göddamn floor. And maybe tweak the monster armor tyoe damage of a lot of weapons and effects. I’d aim for a situation where you’d actually need to attack a monster non-stop for about 30-45 seconds with the average weapon to take its entire healthbar, with ults doing triple or quadruple the damage of a typical normal strike. Then you’d actually need to fight the things properly instead of just “pressing ‘F’ to delete”, but monster killer weapons and classes still have a clear edge.

If the above things get implemented the overperforming classes will get taken down a notch, while the underperformers are affected a lot less which results in less power discrepancy between careers. In return for the straight nerfs above enemy spawn numbers could be taken down a notch.

10 Likes

It’s a wacky nerf wish list that includes the griffonfoot, Volan’s Doctrine, crit properties, and zealot ranged power but not hagbane, Piercing Shot, Blood Shot, mace & sword, Cloak of Mist, just shade in general, Double Shotted, or anything GK related.

Edit: You know what? Let’s add Blood Shot to the list. Why not?

5 Likes

loudly coughs in Virtue of Stoicism

Some of these nerfs would also have consequences or snowball into more rebalances.
A big balance undertaking like this needs a lot more thought.

6 Likes

I agree overall.
About Swift slaying, I’d add that it’s the only offensive trait for melee weapons and that is probably why it is overwhelmingly picked. Beyond balancing it and other existing traits, I think a couple of other offensive/support traits to present us with more choice would lower the overall pickrate of Swift Slaying.

5 Likes

I forgot about it, but yeah - this thing is crazy in how overperforming it is. It’s just got too much raw damage and stagger.

@kralo_ffad the big problem with axes isn’t damage, IMO, it’s just that they take ten minutes to deal with a horde. Hordes aren’t even difficult, but the time difference is stark compared to basically anything else. There was a period when they had a little more cleave, that got reverted, and 1H axes were usable. Not broken, or anywhere close, but totally viable options.

Regarding crit; I think the idea of just taking it off trinkets or something, so you can’t stack it quite as high, would be a good thing to at least try.

That is precisely why any nerf to attack speed or crit chance (due to swift slaying) would hit the 1h axe particularly hard. It’s also worth mentioning that the axe doesn’t actually need to deal with hordes fast as that’s not what a it does. What the 1h axe does is deal a lot of single target damage. The falchion or the 1h hammer is supposed to function as the 1h horde clear/control weapon. No need to increase the cleave and make the axe more like the falchion/hammer.

Weapons I think are undertuned: Axes+Crowbill, Warpick, Throw-axe Volleybows, Repeater Pistol, Greatswords.
Weapons I think are overtuned: Javelin, Moonbow, DuoDaggers, MWP, KruberSpShield.
I’d like the stagger damage system to be scrapped, I’ve never liked the concept.

3 Likes

I’m not familiar with the game before WoM and I don’t know where all the hate for stagger mechanics come from. Can someone explain ?

Well the way things should be changed is arguable but ye I agree with the list as whole.

Some “Tier1” changes for me would definitely be general balancing, tuning down the extremely overperforming weapons and maybe giving some slight love to the weapons that really need it, and then nerfing some of the top end careers to be more in line with rest of the cast. Ways and methods to achieve the above is arguable but this should happen sooner rather than later.

After that I’m totally open to any wacky ideas like removing crit, trait reworks, nuking stagger talents or anything else that has been suggested above and at least has some grounds to be good thing for the overall gameplay and health.

1 Like
Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu