THP & Stagger talent rebalance

Oh no not another bloody balance mod

This mod rebalances and redistributes the talents found on lvl 5 and lvl 15 rows for all careers. Another facet of it too is replacing the Hand Of Shallya trait with the effects of the heal share talent which has been removed from the talent row. Full change list can be found on the mod workshop page.

The intent of this mod is to adjust discrepancies between classes and improve build diversity, as well as balance. All feedback appreciated

Edit: just to clarify, anything that has been adjusted or removed are all liable to further adjustment, being reverted etc. crit/hs thp for example isn’t out of the question among other changes.

15 Likes

So we add on the power creep? Great decision.

The one THP talent which would be in need of a tone down (Cleave) stays untouched. The distinction between Cleave and Kill has been ruined with one being meant for elite killers and the other for horde killers. It is a good idea to reduce the amount of THP for monsters or bosses but the increase for something like Skaven or Chaos will lead to more swimming in THP independent from talent choice. The change for stagger are more interesting, especially the THP for enemies killed in the same hit. Also, the change for the slam adresses a bit the issues for the Fire Sword but also hurt defensive playstyles for shield careers where it is no problem. But the two profiles are linked as far as I remember.

But man, the changes for stagger. That is one insane power plus. Assassin is now not longer on just four career but on 11 careers. It doesn’t even matter much that the crit bonus has been removed. 40 % damage increase just for headshotting is large. Over half of careers got a giant buff for front damage. I am not even sure why I should chose Smiter when Assassin is available. It is 20 % on first enemy per hit versus 40 % on all headshotted enemies per hit. That is obvious as Day and Night which one should be chosen. On weapons with cleave Assassin is better because subsequent targets are getting more damage, and on single target weapons Assassin is better because these attacks are usually easier to headshot. And for no good reason Enhanced Power has been buffed to 10 %. The Bulwark buff may be reasonable, has to be tested out.

But in result, this is a huge buff and power addition for nearly all careers of probably 20 % in average instead of making clearly distinctive stagger talents. Well, on the bright side it is a slight nerf for Shade and WHC. Result will be that more careers will start feeling similar to play with the focus on front damage.

EDIT: Velsix recently made recently an actual interesting and good suggestion for the stagger talents. That is something which should be followed.

2 Likes

May get reduced to 30% depending on how things play out. The adjustment to crits is definitely a massive impact on overall dps. Enhanced Power is also something we’re keeping an eye on.

the main thing it changes is sustain vs skaven which has always unreasonably crippled on-kill while also somewhat reducing chaos warriors being seen as big health packs rather than a threat.

imo any playstyle where the optimal play is zero risk heavy spam and there’s a potential for 20+ thp on a single slam then it’s not strictly healthy. This doesn’t address the issue entirely with shields and firesword but it’s a start.

it all needs to be tested out; hence the post

8 Likes

This mod is a precursor to a larger balance patch. It’s impossible to balance careers when they are being gimped by cookie cutter stagger/thp talents. There will be a future mod (or hopefully FS BBB) where the new weps, and some careers get a fatty nerf stick. This mod is to get a feel for how powerful current careers are when not gimped by thp/stagger talents dictating build choices. Doing too much at once is just a shitshow.

6 Likes

As of now, I would rather put it like that: There are no 100% dead talent picks anymore. That’s the biggest accomplishment, finetuning numbers is bound to happen later on.

5 Likes

This, I believe, is a case of you talking out of your ass unfortunately. Do you know what your headshot ratio is with any given weapon? Do you know what ratio you need to make assassin better than smiter with any given weapon? If you don’t have any of that data and haven’t play-tested it, you’re literally just talking out of your ass.

Actually, this is for math. Making EHP 10% actually allows it to do what mainstay was supposed to do. It’s now a viable horde clearing talent for cleaving weapons.

6 Likes

This looks nice!

I do not play on modded unfortunately so i can only guess but i think it´d be a good idea to keep an eye on BW/UC and bulwark, feels like they´ve got some potential to make high synergy builds.

Some weapons might also have taken an hit in the wake of these changes, dual daggers for instance, but it should not be a big deal.

1 Like

yeah we wanna get these talents sorted out before we look into weapons so as to not put the cart before the horse

All of this is very liable to change as we collect feedback and test further

5 Likes

I approve! :+1:

On Kill looks far more evened out.
Stagger looks perfect or at least close.

Now that stagger provides thp on killing blows, could it possibly replace cleave entirely?
Shame hs/crit is gone, maybe you guys could experiment with it some more?
e.g stagger, on kill & headshot thp for every career.

2 Likes

Stagger still doesn’t work on staggered enemies. It also gives max of like 4 thp on non-slam attacks. So cleave still better on most weps in official difficulties.

I remember talking to Velsix about hs/crit and wouldn’t mind looking into it more myself

I do not generally aruge against the idea, just how it is conducted. I mean let’s make it easy with some simple questions:

  • People complain more and more that the game is getting easier and easier. Are the current changes (which are still subject to change) a power boost for most careers, yes or no?
  • You say you want to create build diversity. Would you say that Cleave and Kill are now more or less diverse than before?
  • You say you want to create build diversity. Are Smiter and Assassin conceptually much diverse?

I mean THP is discussable. However, the conceptual design for your stagger talents is simply extremely weak. You have front damage vs front damage vs front damage vs Bulwark (which most likely will still not see much usage because as Shield career you simply profit more from Enhanced Power). And none of these talents is weak against horde because they all STILL benefit from the stagger bonuses. If you are striving for more build diversity with no dead talents you should fundamentally change the core concept of your stagger talents.

2 Likes

Oh right that´s probably a good idea, i doubt elf or saltz in general can use Vanguard well at all so having it be an option is likely not particularly meaningful.

Assassin losing the crit component is a pretty major (but deserved) nerf to elf and saltz, and while 3% more power on EP and some more standardized THP probably does count as a buff on average there is still a benefit in doing this.

Establishing a standard.

Then outliers who are above the standard can be checked and brought down as necessary.

5 Likes

Builds come down to a lot more than just lvl 15 talent choice. Also I’d suggest…actually playing the mod and testing for yourself first

yeah that’s true tbh, Elf has the one shield that can’t even heavy slam and Saltz has flail I guess…Not a whole lot to go on lol

4 Likes

Bulwark buffed: 10% damage bonus now applies to all damage types

So I’m guessing that means it also works for dots now. Anything else it affects with the mod that it doesn’t currently?

2 Likes

I just messed with stagger THP + one handed sword and it genuinely feels great.
(20 - 30 THP from killing 5 fanatics kind of good)

So I imagine weapons like Falchion, Billhook maybe even Rapier will perform just fine with it.
Maybe with 3 other players staggering, a bit less so.

Shame.
Well the stagger, on kill & headshot thp idea still stands!

1 Like

DoTs and ranged damage

3 Likes

Picking the talent isn’t what makes it diverse. Having access to more options allows you to choose different weapons. Weapon choice has the largest impact on gameplay. So yes. Much more diverse.

Not really. It’s only a power boost for a few careers that we’re getting gated by bad stagger/thp choices.

Yeah I just don’t think you understand build diversity as a concept. Having different thp/stagger talents is never going to, in and of itself, create build diversity. That’s exactly where Fatshark went wrong in the original design. Giving each class an option that works with every weapon/build is what creates build diversity.

E.g. RV having bulwark/mainstay doesn’t make him “more diverse,” it just makes weapons like 1h axe bad. So you end up running dual hammers on every RV load out.

8 Likes

Yeah when things are getting staggered by teammates it can get pretty dry with a lot of weapons. Also need to make sure that we didn’t break it. That sounds like too much thp for 5 fanatics.

Also, I like your idea depending on what on-kill values end up being. If weps like elf sword can make enough thp by horde clearing then we really don’t need on cleave anymore.

I will. But as I said the issue is on the conceptual design. It will not change by playtesting this.

Assassin currently affects four careers. So yea, it will have an influence on WHC and Shade and maybe on Waystalker as elf weapons have inherent crit chance bonuses. On Bounty Hunter I would assume that the nerf is not to noticeable with most of his crit play going into range. Even so, these are 4 careers which will feel a nerf. In contrast to 7+ careers who will feel a power boost.

I “think” you misunderstood me. I don’t say different careers should have different stagger talents. I say the different careers should have the same stagger talents which are more different and diverse instead of front damage vs front damage. So that you have three talents which synergize with different weapons so that every weapon is covered and most weapons even have two talents as choices which also feel different to play. This will not happen with most talents being based on the same principle, namely front damage.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu