Talents you'd like to see buffed

There have been some hints that balance tweaks of some kind may be coming over the course of this year. I’ve already touched on some talents that I’d like to see spiced up in a previous thread focused on Mercenary, but there, the issue wasn’t so much about straight up weak talents, and more about a lack of interesting buildarounds. I could do the same for each career and highlight some examples (a lot of the movement speed talents, for instance, such as on BH, Huntsman, Waystalker or Ranger Vet).

But I’m curious, what talents do you folks feel are in the most desparate need of an overhaul. The ones that you would never touch with a ten foot pole, because they aren’t really even a remotely worthwhile option, no matter the build. To hit the two biggest outliers that come to my mind: Hungry Wind on Shade and Indiscriminate Blast on Bounty Hunter.

Hungry Wind actively nerfs the Shade’s damage output for a short-lived, mediocre buff. If it traded burst damage but turned the Shade into a real meatgrinder for a decent period of time, it would be a worthy option. Transform the sneaky backstabber shade into a frontliner, with high damage and strong damage reduction, or a horde clearer, with melee attack splash, for instance. But 15 % power and 10 % movespeed + phasing ain’t that. It takes away the ability to melt monsters or clear entire patrols on your own, and gives essentially nothing in return.

Indiscriminate Blast. What is there to say. If you get a good one on a horde, after you’ve precharged it before, maybe you get like two Monk kills, and kill another 18 or so skavenslaves. If you get a real nice, thick horde, coming at you through a narrow corridor, there’s no armor in the way, and there’s the Monks in there you can kill. Best case scenario, with a lot of ifs, after some preparation earlier in the map. You could have done that with two or three shots of a Griffonfoot. In turn, you lose the ability to nuke armored enemies, burst monsters, snipe at long range when your ranged weapon isn’t loaded (or isn’t a sniping weapon, like Repeater Pistol or Griffonfoot). Why would you take this? Let’s say, in a hypothetical scenario, you have a fairly unsafe melee weapon, and you take Indiscriminate Blast in the hopes it will help you out when you’re surrounded. You even commit your melee and ranged weapon traits to get the 5 % cooldown reduction like a maniac, to truly get the most out of your talent investment. Indiscriminate Blast will still suck. Because it doesn’t fire in a big, wide arc in front of you, killing everything that got close, like the Grail Knight slash but for hordes. It fires in a narrow cone, that goes deep into the horde like a Grudgeraker. So it won’t even solve the melee safety issue. There is NO merit to this talent. If its cooldown got reduced based on how many enemies it hit, maybe it could be a decent anti-horde assist tool. Or maybe if it just had a lot lower cooldown, so at least it gets to do the shitty job it does a bit more often. Maybe if the arc was a lot wider, it could actually be an ok solution against soft targets. But in its current iteration it’s there just to mess around with, be disappointed with, and switch back to one of the other options the next game.

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I like everything you said, and here’s a lot more to add. The Onslaught Series ended, and I watched some and played a good bit of C3 DWONS hoping to get a team, but the timing didn’t work out.

The most noticeable thing when playing with Tourney Balance is that in the non-modded game, certain career’s abilities and talents are so limited and lacking synergy. Though Tourney Balance Mod is for Tourneys with C1/C3 DWONS and Dutch Spice in mind, there are still plenty of changes that make sense in the regular game and some QoL changes. Here’s some I think would make sense in the regular copied straight from the mod’s documentation:

THP Talents

  • Healshare Talent removed (all careers have 3 THP talents) and replaces Hand of Shallya as a trait.

THP Talents renamed to be uniform across careers:

  • Vanguard (Stagger), Reaper (Cleave), Bloodlust (Kill), Regrowth (Headshot/Crit).

THP talents are distributed in 3 different sets:

  • Set 1: Vanguard, Reaper, Bloodlust (Stagger, Cleave, Kill)
  • Set 2: Vanguard, Reaper, Regrowth (Stagger, Cleave, Headshot/Crit)
  • Set 3: Reaper, Bloodlust, Regrowth (Cleave, Kill, Headshot/Crit)

Each career is in one of these 3 sets:

  • Set 1: Merc, FK, GK, IB, Zealot, WP, UC
  • Set 2: Hunts, RV, OE, WHC, BW, Pyro, BH, HM
  • Set 3: Slayer, WS, Shade, SotT, Necro

Adapted from the mod description:

  • THP from Bloodlust (Kill) adjusted (see below).
  • THP from Regrowth (Headshot/Crit) increased on headshot (from 1 to 3.5), crit (from 1 to 1.5), and headshot crit (from 2 to 4.5).
  • Fixed the bug where Vanguard (Stagger) would not trigger when a staggered enemy died from the staggering attack. Cleave THP unchanged.
  • Removed the bug where Vanguard (Stagger) would trigger on corpses from shield bash hitboxes (e.g. shotgun bashing, shield slam H1, fire sword H1, and similar attacks).

Bloodlust (Kill THP) values:

  • beastmen_horde = 1.5 THP → 1.5 THP
  • chaos_roamer = 3 THP → 3 THP
  • skaven_special = 8 THP → 8 THP
  • chaos_warrior = 30 THP → 20 THP
  • skaven_elite = 8 THP → 8 THP
  • beastmen_roamer = 3 THP → 3 THP
  • chaos_elite = 15 THP → 10 THP
  • beastmen_elite = 15 THP → 15 THP
  • skaven_horde = 0.5 THP → 1 THP
  • chaos_special = 10 THP → 10 THP
  • skaven_roamer = 1 THP → 2 THP

monster = 50 THP → 35 THP

Stagger Talents

Stagger talents are distributed in 2 different sets:

  • Set 1: Smiter, Assassin, EP
  • Set 2: Smiter, Bulwark, EP

Each career is in one of these 2 sets:

  • Set 1: Merc, Hunts, RV, Slayer, WS, Shade, SotT, WHC, BH, Zealot, Pyro
  • Set 2: FK, GK, IB, OE, HM, WP, BW, UC

Adapted from the mod description:

  • Mainstay removed: the talent is conceptually weak and without a complete rework, or nerfing to competitors, will always be realistically inferior to smiter and enhanced power.
  • Bulwark buffed: 10% damage bonus now applies to all damage types and duration has been increased to 5 seconds. The intent here is to improve the supportive niche and make it an adequate alternative option for that playstyle.
  • Enhanced Power increased from 7.5% to 10%.
  • Assassin no longer applies on crits.
  • Smiter unchanged.

KRUBER

Mercenary

Talents

Lvl 10

  • Helborg’s Tutelage: No longer prevents natural crits.

Huntsman

Passives

  • Now gains increased reload speed
  • Quadrupled the range of Huntsman’s aura that gives nearby teammates 5% extra crit chance.

Ultimate (Hunter’s Prowl)

  • Cooldown decreased from 90s to 75s.

  • Reload speed increase is reduced.

Foot Knight (FK)

Passives

  • Protective Presence: Damage reduction is nerfed but the aura is quadrupled.

Talents

Lvl 10

  • Staggering Force: Additional Stagger Power decreased from 35% to 20%.

Ultimate (Valiant Charge)

  • Cooldown increased from 30s to 40s.

  • Size and cleave of baseline ult (not battering ram) has been significantly increased.

Grail Knight (GK)

Talents

Lvl 30

  • Virtue of the Impetuous Knight: In addition - 30% Cooldown Reduction added. Duration increased to 25s.

  • Virtue of Confidence: No longer has infinite damage cleave, but still staggers infinitely. Hits sooner to prevent whiffing as much.


BARDIN

Ranger Veteran (RV)

Passives

  • Doubled effective range of weapons and increased ranged power.

Talents

Lvl 20

  • Drunken Brawler: You now drink Ales twice as fast!

  • Scavenger: Chance of dropping potions is massively reduced but made consistent.

    • Bombs can no longer drop.

Lvl 30

  • Parting Gift: Bomb-dupe buff now has a finite duration of 10s (i.e. same duration as ult).
  • Surprise Guest: 30% CDR added.

KERILLIAN

Shade

Passives

  • Blur: Parry window increased by 50%.

Ultimate (Infiltrate)

  • Duration halved and Damage against monsters increased.

Talents

Lvl 10

  • Cruelty: Critical strike damage bonus increased to 80% and grants 5% bonus Crit Chance.

Lvl 30

  • Cloak of Pain: Dual weapons no longer sometimes consume both charges of ult instead of 1 with a single attack [BUG FIX].

  • Shimmer Strike: Limited to a total of 4 attacks during ult (from infinite).

Sister of the Thorn

Passives

  • A Sustenance of Leechlings: THP leech decreased from 100% to 10%.

Ultimate (Thornwake)

  • Cooldown increased from 40s to 60s.

Talents

Lvl 20

  • Radiant Inheritance: Duration increased to 20s.

Lvl 30

  • Blackvenom Thicket (Bush): In addition - 30% Cooldown Reduction added.

SALTZPYRE

Bounty Hunter

Passives

  • Blessed Shots: Part of Blessed Combat added; Blessed Shot cooldown resets when an enemy is killed with a melee attack.

Talents

Lvl 30

  • Double-Shotted: Cooldown Reduction on headshot increased from 60% to 80%.

  • Indiscriminate Blast:

    • Cooldown Reduction increased from 25% to 60%.
  • Killing enemies with the ult no longer grants additional pellets to the next ult.

Zealot

Talents

Lvl 10

  • Smite: No longer prevents natural crits
  • Unbending Purpose: Buffed to 20% melee power.

Ultimate (Holy Fervour)

  • In addition - When used, converts all green HP to THP.

SIENNA

Pyromancer

Ultimate (The Burning Head)

  • Non-Crit Infantry Damage against Infantry and Berserker/Monks significantly increased.
  • No longer does friendly fire.

Unchained

Passives

  • Blood Magic:

  • Heat no longer generated by Gas, Gunners, Warpfire, or FF.

  • DR no longer applies to Gas, Gunners, Warpfire, or FF.

  • Becoming incapacitated (pounced, grabbed etc.) whilst overcharging no longer causes Unchained to be instantly downed.


In addition to these changes, I have some ideas for Witch Hunter Captain

  • level 10 Riposte (free crit within 2 seconds of a parry) terrible, massively outshined by the usefulness of Deathknell and Flense, both of which will allow you to deal significanlty more damage. I’d make Riposte a passive ability; lump it in with Killing shot’s effects, and then for weapons like Axe, Greatsword, and Flail, better on WHC by granting him a cleave power talent similar to mercenary.
  • Level 20, Templar’s Knowledge is also somewhat weak, it’s just 5% more damage against tagged enemies only whereas with Heretic sighted, you’re getting roughly 10% more melee DPS almost all the time since you can attack faster whenever there’s something to tag.
  • Level 20 Wild Fervor, though a more selfless talent only lasts 5 seconds, 5% crit to the party when taggable enemies die. It’s a bit weak and short. Just make it 10 seconds like Heretic Sighted. Idea, maybe make it stack at 2% up to 5x 10s each.
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While I agree in general terms, some of these feel a bit excessive or use inaccurate values to begin with (the headshot and crit THP values, for example, are double of what you’re listing as a baseline: it’s 2, 2, 4, not 1, 1, 2). I also wouldn’t call not getting THP on stagger from the killing blow a bug. Enemies aren’t staggering around if they’re dead, and it gives some reason to pick cleave in place of stagger THP on some difficulties and builds (e.g. Mace Unchained on Legend oneshots Skavenslaves). Otherwise THP on stagger will be almost universally stronger than THP on cleave.

I also disagree on Helborg’s Tutelage and Smite. The only “issue” with Helborg is that it’s on the same line as The More The Merrier, which is just OP. But Helborg and Smite are already a baseline 20 % crit chance without having to invest any properties on your items into it. There’s no need to stack the character’s crit rolls on top of that. For the Mercenary it is a bit weaker because of the starting +5 % crit chance the character has, but on Zealot it’s already a +15 % crit chance talent and enables the Repeating Crossbow build on its own. Compare that to Slayer’s Hack and Slash (+10 % crit chance). Smite and Helborg are already plenty strong and don’t need to be stronger IMO (maybe The More The Merrier should get weaker). Also 20 % melee power on Unbending Purpose without any prerequisites seems excessive. That’s almost The More The Merrier, except always active. Unbending Purpose sucks, no doubt, but that would be an overcorrection.

The rest :+1:

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What you said about THP changes doesn’t quite make sense to me. In the Tourney Mod, THP on stagger from a killing blow doesn’t do much; it only counts the stagger dealt by the killing blow itself. THP from stagger is only granted when an attack actually staggers, regardless of whether it kills. It still can’t compete with cleave THP for a cleaving weapon with less stagger potential. That said, I might be wrong since the Tourney Mod heavily nerfs stagger THP for shields, making them weak whereas a power stacking career like Zealot can get good stagger THP with a greatsword; so it’s fair to say my testing might not translate to the base game where stagger THP is typically the best option already if you have a weapon capable of dealing decent stagger.

The baseline crit values from the docs are likely outdated; either from a previous update or an older version of the Tourney Mod. That said, I don’t see an issue with the listed THP changes; it’s mainly the weapon and career adjustments (which I’ve excluded) that wouldn’t make sense in the base game. I’ve tested all the different THP talents, and they function well, though the Tourney Mod makes some extreme nerfs; like shield stagger, probably to prevent elites from being staggered much at all in C3 DWONS; while buffing others too much, like Sienna’s Mace and Greatsword.

Zealot’s power bonus from Unbending Purpose is actually 10%, meaning the Tourney Mod docs are outdated there.

Helborg’s Tutelage and Smite are already niche talents. I’ve tested the Tourney Mod quite a bit (mainly on C1–C3 DWONS), and neither talent seemed OP as implemented. It provides a massive crit bonus on paper, but in practice, it’s not overwhelmingly strong. Mercenary’s Level 10 Cleave talent is underrated for weapons like 1H Sword and Greatsword, while The More the Merrier is overrated. Its max bonus requires five enemies practically hugging you, so it fluctuates between 2–5. I usually get higher damage output with the 50% cleave bonus. Level 10 talents are typically a careers strongest row of offensive talents; and a 1 in 5 crit bonus on top of random crits isn’t the same as +20% crit chance since the gaurented crit can roll in place of a random crit; still a massive bonus, but that’s arguably what it should be.

Waystalker :

  1. Drakira´s alacrity and Fervent Huntress : Both are either too situational or janky to ever be worth using over the other 1-2 options on the same rows.
  2. Ricochet : meanwhile just needs outright replacement, it flat doesnt work due to how the average map geometry is, even if firing at the ground infront of you there´s a 50% chance the shot will hit a tiny rock and fly back. Not to mention most of her weapons strongly benefit from headshots to a great degree and hitting the ground is not doing that.
  3. Loaded Bow : I am not a fan of the current state, i do not see a reason to ever use it over either of the other two options for any of her weapons. Maybe rework it into an option that does add clear somehow like having keri root herself in place and rapidly fire some empowered shots in a few waves or such? Like an anti hyperdensity option.

Handmaiden :

  1. Focused spirit : Too weak for how difficult the uptime is on higher difficulties, almost never worth using.
  2. Oak stance : Too simple really, 5% crit chance doesnt feel like a talent so much so as a placeholder.
  3. I´d like to see Handmaidens ability reworked a bit honestly, it feels a bit underwhelming no matter what you do with it. Especially given the competition like Battle Wizard, Slayer or Zealot.

Shade :

  1. Hungry wind - I think you could remove/reduce the penalty on this AND fuse it with shimmer strike and it still might not be used as much as Cloak Of Pain.

Sister of Thorns ;

  1. She needs more staves dang it
  2. Current staff feels so weak dang it
  3. Ironbark is in meme territory of usefulness and is more likely to self-sabotage than help. Hyperdensity FTW.
  4. Blackvenom : Please give it back at least enough damage to kill cata chaff in 2 casts :sob::sob:
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100% agree! I remember reading through the Tourney Balance changes when they were announced and wishing we could get them in the regular game.