Mercenary could use some cooler talents

With the addition of Loadout slots I’ve really enjoyed experimenting and tinkering with various setups for each career. Where previously I had to judge which build I liked the most for a given career and just played that, I was now free to explore all the options a career had to offer without having to deal with constant build swapping. I was surprised by how many of the talents that I previously dismissed (cause they didn’t fit my favourite playstyle for the career) were actually really cool and build defining. Almost every career had a plethora of options for a variety of builds. Some just straight up powerful and efficient, some just very flavourful and fun. A simple example to illustrate my point:

Hunstman’s ranged weapon choice heavily determines the talent setup and each build feels very distinct. Wanna blow enemeis away up close with a Blunderbuss? Well, Blunderbuss has long reload, so you’ll want Keep It Coming, Thrill of the Hunt, and probably Head Down and Hidden cause it feels like you can barely get any shots out at all within the usual 6 seconds of your career skill. Wanna pretend you’re an Outcast Engineer by taking the Repeater? Make 'Em Bleed will have good uptime with the volume of shots you put out, Burst of Enthusiasm will generate meaningful amounts of THP while you’re gattling away, and Blend In helps you make great use of the free ammo reload you get on the Repeater when you use your career skill. Wanna be THE sniper? Longbow or Handgun (if you want to not have to sweat about Stormvermin shields) with One In the Eye. Thick Hide and Concealed Strikes.

Huntsman is far from the only career with this level of richness in talent and gear setups. Almost all careers have this in spades.

But this seems almost entirely absent from the Mercenary. It’s not that it’s a bad career, not by any means. But his Talent options simply do not provide much of an ability to create distinct, flavourful builds. Taking it row by row (skipping the generic lvl 5 and lvl 15 Talents, of course):

Lvl 10: The More the Merrier! - Limb-Splitter - Helborg’s Tutelage

To start with, Helborg’s Tutelage just doesn’t fit. A guaranteed crit every 6th strike means ca. 12.5 % crit chance (that’s the first time it procs, then it triggers every 5th strike, upping it to 20 % crit chance). Mercenary already starts with 10 % crit chance as a baseline due to his Perk. So what we’re measuring is: is the ability to free up a Property slot on the Trinket and weapon worth sacrificing a Talent for? The answer is a resounding no. The reason being, The More the Merrier is an astounding 25 % power increase in most situations on higher difficulties. No Properties on Trinket or weapon are going to rival that. Mixed hordes, patrols, Chests of Trials in Chaos Wastes, even a monster fight will benefit in some way from the power increase, ranging from 5 to 25 %. Then there’s Limb-Splitter. In theory this could be a good talent, and there are some weapons that do benefit from it, like the Executioner Sword, which doesn’t have as much cleave as one might expect and can get stuck in hordes on Cata. But in general, Kruber’s selection of melee weapons is sufficiently solid and free of single-target weapons like the one-handed axes that he’s generally not in need of extra cleave, especially so on a career that already has extra cleave as one of its Perks. The More the Merrier is such an outlier in terms of power on this row you’d need a serious, serious reason not to take it. And the other two talents don’t really offer a compelling reason to do so, as not only do they not compete in power, they do not open up an alternate playstyle either. There’s very little reason to pick a different weapon just cause you got the option to take Limb-Splitter or Helborg’s Tutelage. Zealot has the exact same guaranteed crit talent, but on him it’s an enticing option because it’s a net increase in crit chance (Zealot doesn’t have the 5 % crit chance increase Merc has) and also interacts very well with the Repeating Crossbow (guaranteed crit every 2nd volley, infinite ammo sustain). Kruber’s arsenal doesn’t give Limb-Splitter or Helborg’s Tutelage the space they’d need to be relevant, and both either conflict with or are made somewhat redundant by Mercenary’s Perks.

Lvl 20: Reikland Reaper - Enhanced Training - Strike Together

This is where one would expect things to get quite interesting and distinct, as the lvl 20 rows always dramatically impact the way the career’s core Passive Ability works. But like with lvl 10, it’s not really a contest. Now, with Reikland Reaper one would think it would combo with The More the Merrier to create a great Elite one-shotting build, like 2-handed Slayer gets with Skull-Splitter and Trophy Hunter stacks. But since both the More the Merrier and Reikland Reaper require a horde or at least a decent enough group of enemies nearby to function, unless you’re trying to pick an elite in a mixed horde or fighting a patrol, you’re not really going to have the opportunity to make use of that, and you still need to activate Paced Strikes in that situation to attempt it. You’re probably not too concerned with cleaving 3 enemies with a patrol on your tail, so the Power stacking fantasy doesn’t quite come together. More often than not, you’re just overkilling Skavenslaves. Now, Enhanced Training does have some potential with some of the slower weapons that have good attack angles, like the Greathammer or the Executioner Sword. There, Paced Strikes gets to make up for the weapon’s downside of low attack speed, and the weapon makes the higher target requirement irrelevant thanks to the good horizontal sweeps and high cleave. But why have 20 % increased attack speed at extra cost when you can have 40 % at no extra cost? Sure, it’s not all stacked on one person, but Strike Together is still just a numerically superior option, made more versatile still by the fact it doesn’t have to be all about horde clear. You can focus on horde, while your allies are DPSing down a monster, now 10 % faster thanks to the attack speed you provide. It’s really no contest. And once again, not only are the two alternative options inferior in terms of power, they do not open up much of a build opportunity either. It would be fine for one talent to just be better than the rest if the others offered some very different gameplay, but they don’t. It’s not like Lingering Flames, Famished Flames and Volcanic Force, which each synergize with completely different weapon setups. You can be playing pretty much anything with any of these Kruber talents, except for maybe Enhanced Training, since some weapons struggle to meet the 4 enemy limit due to low cleave or poor angles.

Lvl 25: Stand Clear - Blade Barrier - Black Market Supplies

Oof. So to begin with, Stand Clear and Black Market Supplies are just copies of WHC’s talents on the same row (Charmed Life and Always Prepared, respectively). That’s bad enough. The fact these copies are also pretty generic talents to begin with just makes it worse. Black Market Supplies does have the redeeming quality of being on a career with increased crit chance and a high ammo weapon (Repeater), which makes a more ranged playstyle with Scrounger a possibility. WHC does have the same feature, but his high ammo weapon (Repeater Pistol) is considerably less powerful than the Repeater Handgun, so there is some extra reason to take this option on the Mercenary over WHC. Except Huntsman can say the exact same thing. Huntsman also has baseline increased crit chance, this time as an aura. He also has even more ammo capacity without having to sacrifice a talent for it, has double effective range, and also sustains ammo better by havving innate Conservative Shooter as a Passive. So even if Black Market Supplies did make for an attractive playstyle option for Mercenary as a potential ranged DPS, it’s not really offering a new playstyle, it just does what Huntsman does, just with worse range capabilities and better frontline presence. Moving on from that, not sure which build exactly yearns to sacrifice a talent slot for 20 % increased dodge range. More often than not you don’t notice you even have it. It’s not the worst of the worst of generic talents (there’s stuff like Shade’s movespeed at lvl 25 or Zealot’s power talent at lvl 10), but it’s most definitely up there. It’s arguably even worse on Mercenary than it is on WHC. WHC with some weapon setups might have to reach for higher mobility to compensate for the poorer crowd control, but Kruber doesn’t have these issues due to his weapon selection. That all leaves us with Blade Barrier. Who says no to 25 % damage reduction that’s up through the most chaotic parts of the game? And why isn’t this talent on row 20 with all the other Paced Strikes talents? Then at least there would potentially be some competition to Strike Together if you wanted to go for the flavour of a frontline tank, rather than a pure killing machine. It still wouldn’t make sense power-wise but at least the flavour incentive to pick something else might be there. But on row 25 it just makes the other talent options look even worse than they already are.

Lvl 30: Walk It Off - Ready for Action - On Yer Feet, Mates!

Compare this row of talents to what I mentioned with Huntsman, where we had Concealed Strikes for the dedicated sniper, Head Down and Hidden for the Blunderbuss to get as many shots out as possible in the small window, and Blend In for the highest frequency of free reloads on Repeater. Three distinct options for three very distinct builds. Once again, Mercenary has none of that. Neither of these three talents is straight up bad, there’s no clear outlier that overshadows the rest as has been the case with all the other talent rows. But none of them really redefine the Mercenary’s playstyle or incentivise new build directions either. Sure, you can get 25 % damage reduction for 10 seconds. Granted, a good bit of that usually goes wasted as enemies are knocked on the ground for a few seconds when you use it, but there are use cases for it (when caught in a gas cloud, for one, or after your team gets tossed out of a Blighstormer vortex, if you somehow end up landing close to each other). Ready for Action just gets you the most crowd control and THP generation over a period of time, so in terms of pure efficiency, however dull it may be, it has its place. On Yer Feet, Mates can be the run saver (and a bit of a newbie trap, too) and definitely found its niche in Versus. But neither really inspires or cements together an entirely different build the way Huntsman’s or, say, Pyromancer’s lvl 30 options do.

Now, Mercenary isn’t the only career with this problem. As I’ve touched on, some of the Shade’s, Zealot’s and WHC’s talents could use a look, but on those, it’s generally an isolated case where there’s a stinker or an uninspiring option here or there. On Mercenary (and in my opinion, to some extent the Foot Knight too), this seems to be omnipresent. No build really feels dramatically different with his Talent options, no Talent screams to you “play Mercenary differently”, “use me with this weapon you wouldn’t use otherwise”. A part of it could be down the Kruber’s weapon selection, where all the melee weapons are generally solid enough that they don’t create the opportunity for a specific talent choice to really allow them to shine, you can really do well with anything and you can’t really focus on a specific role, like Elite one-shotter, monster killer, etc. And I think it’s a real shame.

The Loadout system really opened the game up for creativity and experimentation, but Mercenary’s talents don’t really provide the options to create truly distinct, flavourful or experimental loadouts. Even if all the talents on each row were balanced to mathematical perfection, the Mercenary overall ends up feeling more or less like the same build regardless because there’s not enough uniqueness in the Talents, only generic % boosts to one number or another.

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Waystalker is pretty far down this road too i´d argue. Only real build difference is using bleed for swiftbow, longbow at times, or otherwise using bloodshot. Other than that its basically the same thing always.

Even moonbow benefits from running kurnous since it refills energy nowadays.

Arguably there is the option to also use piercing shot instead of kurnous with javs/moonbow but that talent only really feels good against chaos warrios/maulers and some bosses. Feels quite like overkill to carefully aim it at a stormvermin.

I wouldn’t say so. Waystalker does have some poor talents speaking strictly in numerical terms (how does Fervent Huntress in any way compete with Asrai Focus, why take Isha’s Embrace over Rejuvenating Locus, just to avoid salty Zealots?) but I’d say in terms of motivating the creation of different builds, her diversity is pretty decent. If anything Waystalker’s existence kinda limits other Kerillian career’s build diversity cause some ranged weapons are nerfed in ammo count (cough HAGBANE cough) just for Waystalker’s sake.

Looking at her talent options, Blood Shot is great for when you’re primarily melee and switch to range only occasionally for sniping, so it works great with Javs and Longbow (and Moonbow if for some reason you want to waste Kerri’s 100 % extra ammo Perk) but doesn’t make too much sense for a primarily ranged playstyle like Swiftbow or Hagbane. Serrated Shots doesn’t work with Hagbane for whatever reason so you might still take Bloodshot anyway, or take Drakira’s Alacrity if you’re recovering ammo with Conservative Shooter. Swiftbow wants Serrated. Drakira’s Alacrity does actually have another place too, on a Piercing Shot build with Javelins, since it accelerates Jav’s reload animation, which is often the weapon’s only negative factor. The level 20 talents really are just for flavour, Spirit Arrows is clearly the best option in terms of power, but for flavour or fun (or even for actual power if you’re playing an Amethyst Weave) there’s reason to take either of the other two and it definitely feels like you’re playing a different build. I personally like playing Regen Waystalker with Nat Bond, just for the fun of it, and it is definitely distinct, even if it doesn’t add up power-wise. Fervent Huntress is the one talent that barely adds anything in terms of flavour or build variety. I guess if you want to move at hyperspeed while you’re machinegunning out Swiftbow or Hagbane shots you might take it for the fun of it and it will feel noticably different to play, but the power is obviously lacking over Asrai Focus. And say what you will about Ricochet but it is fun and unique and has a noticable effect (at least visually), which is not something I can really say about Mercenary. And it synergises nicely with Hagbane (if firing at enemy feet). Her Career skills versions also feel dramatically different and define what build you’re playing. If you’re going for career skill spam with Spirit Arrows and Asrai Focus then Loaded Bow is just straight 33 % more power to the main thing you built around. Piercing Shot is a whole thing of its own and turns her into a Shade-level boss killer with one talent point. And then there’s Kurnous’ Reward to open up a fully ranged playstyle with Hagbane or Swiftbow.

These are all very distinct builds that really feel different. Nothing on Mercenary really makes the career feel different, whatever setup you play it ends up feeling the same, maybe there’s some more damage reduction going on in the background or maybe you dodge 20 % farther but you’re never making a whole different gear setup just to synergise with Limb-Splitter or some such. Mercenary’s Talents just lack that uniqueness and flavour that make them feel distinct, Waystalker has that aplenty. When you look at Serrated Shots you know immediately “oh, I could use it with Swiftbow” and you have a build right there. I look at Reikland Reaper, Enhanced Training and Strike Together and no new build pops into my head just from that, none of it screams “oh, use Sword and Shield with it because it improves X which the weapon usually sucks at or it buffs Y which the weapon already incentivises”. I mean Kruber is supposed to be the master swordsman of the group and not one of the Mercenary talents has any real synergy with any sword build. Like, Greatsword has awful armor damage and requires repeat push attacks to really do anything. If Mercenary had something as simple as a stamina regen boosting talent (not a great example cause we already have that on WHC and GK), bam, that’s a foundation for a build right there, and it would synergise also with Mace and Shield and Sword and Shield which both rely heavily on push attacks against armored enemies. But everything Merc has is generic and doesn’t really incentivise any specific build choices or push new playstyles at all.


My dude ._.

Blood shot doesnt make sense for hagbane? What Earth have you been living in? O_O

Blood shot hagbane is pretty much the only cata+ waystalker build that gets regular use due to how powerful it is, the fact that you dont recognize that indicates me that you preach theory but lack practice.

Take it from me, i have played Waystsalker very, very extensively, and a lot of what you´re talking is just idealism rather than practically good.

Alacrity javelins is also a major no-no. Reason being that javs by themselves doesnt really 1-tap most targets but bloodshot javelins do. So going into melee to stab some skaven slave then a quick toss to kill a local elite, or two with crits, is really the main strategy that gets used. Slow reload? Use conservative if you´re going to headshot anyway, skips reload entirely.

The unfortunate truth is that alacrity is good on paper but it doesnt have particular synergy with anything compared to the other two options and thus doesnt really exist in practice. You could remove it entirely and 99% wouldnt be affected.

HERESYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY​:face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth::face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

Ricochet is nothing short of self sabotage, outright trolling and complete bull. Forget “flavor&variety”, the only thing it does is indicate to the world that the user is a either a fool or a Took hobbit. The only time it has any use is if you miss while shooting down a damn tunnel, and pray there isnt a patrol along the way that you want to avoid because otherwise without a roof the shoot will just find its way up and vanish.

Major issue with loaded bow is that they removed its ability to refund ammo via conservative, so only a very skilled longbow user can really use it on WS, or pick javs with it. But then you might as well pick piercing instead.

Moonbow? As mentioned, Moonbow benefits too much from kurnous not to use that too. Which in practice means there is pretty much never a reason to use loaded bow.

In short, Keri has a lot of “looks good on paper” options but little that actually works out in practice.

If we start talking pure balance and numbers then this discussion will spill over to pretty much every career in the game as pretty much no row of talents is balanced in that way. That wasn’t the point. Yes if you want to go for a purely optimal build for Hagbane you will take Blood Shot over Drakira every time. I can’t speak on what works on Cata+ as Cata is all I play, I don’t go beyond, DWOS or all that is not my area to chime in on. But in the end it’s a game, your build doesn’t have to be strictly optimal as long as it’s fun and gets the job done. If you want to play a pure Hagbane spam build that never pulls out its melee weapon unless it has to like you’re a more cranky Legolas, you won’t kill in melee often enough to make use of Blood Shot. As you crank the difficulties up that power fantasy obviously falls off in feasibility.

My complaint about Merc wasn’t to point out flaws in pure balance, hence why I didn’t title it “Mercenary could use some more balanced talents”. I’d like them to be cooler, more flavourful, to open up distinct build options. Cause in the end the purest, most distilled balance will be overlooked by the majority of players anyway, only the top 1 % that cranks the difficulty as high as it can go will really take notice. But everyone will notice, from the lowest noob to the toppest pro, if a career gets a major glow-up in flavour, style and interesting, cool options. As it stands Merc’s talents are mostly a pile of generic, universally applicable % buffs that don’t really offer any space for specialisation or focus, you can use any talent setup with pretty much any weapon and none of it will feel particularly special. That is not to say it will feel weak. It will just lack the range of entirely unique builds that other careers can support through their talent tree. BW’s lvl 10 line or Pyromancer’s lvl 30 line being just a few very clear examples. Even if going for Pyro’s crit ult refresh is most certainly not really there balance and power-wise, it is most definitely a distinct way to play and build Pyromancer. Merc lacks that, more than any other career in the game IMO, only parallelled possibly by Foot Knight, and it is entirely down to his Talent tree.

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While i do find your arguments reasonable at this point i would still go to state that the advantage of Merc´s generic buffs is the idea that he can use pretty much any melee weapon in his arsenal.

He might be outclassed by GK in cases, but he can use everything.

The risk of “specializing” things is him ending up more like WS where you got options that look good on paper but fall really short in practice or at least relatively so at best.

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I’d rather get new weapons (melee and range) instead of a talent refresh.

I can agree with that, versatility in weaponry is definitely Kruber’s strong suit in general, though I’ll argue that’s also a part of what makes many of his builds feel very samey. There’s very little of “my melee weapon sucks at X so I should spec my Talents to help my get X back up to par”. There’s no Kerillian Dual Swords with their non-existent armor damage, or one-handed axes or Crowbills with zero cleave. Huntsman builds feel very distinct because they primarily revolve around his ranged options and Kruber’s ranged options, while frankly laughable in terms of the breadth of the selection, are sufficiently distinct from each other that it just feels very different if you’re playing a Huntsman Repeater build or Handgun build etc. The problem with his melee selection is that almost every weapon is at least passable in all aspects, which leaves very few weak points that his talent tree could help shore up. At most some of his weapons rely quite heavily on push attacks to deal with armor, and all that amounts to in terms of talent options would be “give him a stamina regen talent”. Which doesn’t make him feel very unique to build for, as GK already has one of those, and so does WHC.

Well, we already know that is coming. A weapon DLC is on its way. But regardless of what weapons Kruber gets (probably some handcannon to expand his woeful ranged repertoire), Mercenary will continue to feel more or less the same regardless of Talent choices cause his Talents just aren’t all that unique-feeling. New weapons won’t solve Mercenary’s lack of spice, not unless those weapons are so hyper-specialised that they really need, say, extra cleave from Limb-Splitter, extra ammo from Black Market Supplies, a reliable crit rotation from Helborg’s Tutelage or additional attack speed from Enhanced Training to really work. In which case, those weapons would probably be lambasted as trash DLC by the community, as they would be useable only on Mercenary with a specific talent setup, and worthless for anyone else. There are already examples of such hyper specific weapons (Hagbane being pretty much unuseable on non-Waystalker career due to awful ammo count, Crowbill only really working on Necromancer’s infinite cleave build, Saltz’s Axe only being an OK pick on a mostly ranged build like Griffon-Foot Bounty Hunter etc.) and I don’t think too many people are happy about those weapons being unusable 90 % of the time.