Knowing that speed from armory on its own is not useful, especially when it’s not clear what it represents, all those attack speeds in armory represent “chain time”, the amount of time it takes to transition from one attack to another, it is not useful for heavy attacks where it does not account for charge time at all.
For instance Heavy attack chain on the elven spear would be 0.53s charge time+ 0.53s chaining back into a sweep from a stab, rapier would be 0.875s charge time +0.3s chaining into another heavy.
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This is a rather tiny buff, in-fact almost negligible. (Cleave 2 ungors rather than 1)
Bringing it up to 3.36+ should allow 1h Axe to also cleave 2 fanatics.
(Billhook, Spear, Tuskgor spear) Maybe these weapons are over performing against monsters, but probably not by enough to deserve a reduction. Probably just down to careers boosting said weapons.
Not sure about adding block delay or any sort of input delay after weapon attacks. It will probably lead to weapons feeling less fluid or outright clunky.
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I really don’t support basically any of the changes suggested. Some are eccessive nerfs, block delay being the worst, while others are eccessive or useless buffs i hope that developers don’t take in consideration any of this.
It’s worth remembering that with most high cleave weapons there’s significant damage dropoff after the first target hit, so your damage is already kind of front loaded to begin with. Especially if smiter pushes you high enough to outright kill the first thing you cleave, it’s still gonna have a noticeable impact on horde clear, probably bigger than mainstay for low stagger cleave weapons.
As you said consistency is important, and you can’t always rely on the enemy you’re hitting being staggered. 2h Hammer certainly does use mainstay well, but that’s because it has heavy stagger on horde enemies that makes it more consistent to follow up while they’re still staggered, and also the fact that its high stagger lets you get good value from mainstay against elites as well, which is less true of many other high cleave weapons.
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DD still do more damage on armour headshot.
I’m not so sure. It’s incredibly fast and safe already, it doesn’t need to also make mince meat out of everything but Norscan hordes. The infantry damage it does isn’t necessary for it to be viable. It competes with the Billhook for infantry damage/horde control, a competition it will always lose. Its lights are comparable to Dual Dagger lights in speed, so the inf dmg/cleave they have is hard to justify.
Exec’s heavy isn’t actually that slow, and block cancel chains super easily. Easiest headshot in the game to land imo.
Dual Daggers get better headshot damage and bodyshot damage. So they pay the price in cleave and range. Trade offs and all. The Spears do acceptable armour damage while having very easy horde management and horde dmg.
I use Exquisite Huntress and I never have issues maintaining stacks against CWs, and light spam is enough for anything smaller.
The Elf 1h Sword’s weaknesses lie in its low infantry dmg light attacks and from it having less range than expected. It’s unfortunate that it has 99 dodges because that gets in the way of balancing (it could easily have 12 dodges and have its infantry damage buffed imo). Good heavy attacks with high bodyshot damage and crit chance, which makes it weirdly way better against elites than against hordes despite being a cutting sword.
You know if this was a dedicated Kruber thread people would already being saying how much better elf has it. Grass is always greener on the other side.
I don’t think testing the dummies for cleave is the correct way to go about it. Go on to modded and do the same test with various horde enemies. There might not be a difference until power buffs go into a play, but I believe there is one.
That’s fair. The bodyshot damage from both weapons should be pretty comparable on armour, just not on infantry (who is seriously using the Rapier’s full charge on chaff). The heavy stab is still faster, so it’s easier to pull off safely mid horde.
If we compare the attacks you want to use vs hordes, Elf Spear has better bodyshot damage and higher cleave.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I can imagine why you disagree with the nerfs, but which buffs do you find to be excessive?
The axe buff is rather small, but it’s a high mobility weapon with proportionately high bodyshot damage. Can’t be too strong. Same reason why 2h Hammer shouldn’t get buffed much if at all. Do your numbers refer to unstaggered enemies, and if yes what cleave breakpoints would the 1h Axe reach on staggered enemies with both my suggested value of 2.96 and your suggested value of 3.36+?
The block cancelling inflates the Exec’s dps, which arguably shouldn’t feel fluid for what is supposed to be a slow, decisive and powerful weapon.
I didn’t mention adding any delays to Kruber’s or Kerillian’s Spears, mainly because the T.Spear’s dps doesn’t get excessive with block cancelling and Kerillian’s doesn’t want to block cancel heavy 1 most of the time. Kruber’s kit doesn’t really make the the T.Spear do super well against monsters (still decent but not like WHC with Billhook) except with One in The Eye and Smiter on Huntsmen, which isn’t really that high then still.
The only weapon I was really concerned about was the Exec, so I’m removing the changes to the Billhook’s block cancelling. I also think the same can be said for the Rapier because it’s fairly safe to block cancel the heavies, but I was concerned that no one would accept such a change with its other nerfs.
Changes so far:
- Monster dmg nerf to Spear/Spear-like weapons removed.
- Reduction to Rapier bodyshot dmg added.
- Block cancel delay for Billhook removed. (Edit: All Billhook changes removed).
- Bulwark given 10% stagger strength.
- THP on cleave changed so that first target in cleave gives 0.5 thp.
*Edit *
I just realized i had enhanced power on my waystalker in modded rather than assassin,and enhanced power&dagger combo is bugged, edit in progress.
*DD vs stormvermin + vs chaos warrior : *
*Vermin Headshot : 64 *
*CW headshot : 70 *
Rapier vs same
:54
:47
You can hit one guy in a horde three times before he can blink sure, but then his buddies are completely undisturbed and will hit you instead which is the issue axe has and what makes it useless… As for comparing with dagggers i mean yeah sure it´s similarly quick but daggers have a bleed and crit chance bonuses.
*As well as stronger heavy attacks. *
With similar attackspeed and mobility but no bleed or critchance buffs its only fair that it has better direct damage&cleave…and crit power.
It takes 0.8 seconds to get it started, then a fairly lengthy animation into a block cancel to do it again? Thus takes like 2 seconds to get 2 attacks out. Rapier or daggers will have attacked three or four times by then while being safer.
Indeed having now checked properly the daggers deal better armor damage on heavy attacks in general while also having bonus crit chance while rapier has bonus crit power and a very high one at that. As for the Spear, it´s armor damage outside headshots is actually on the low side just like rapier in exchange for easy headshots.
Well yeah, even if one dagger misses you just lose a heap of damage but the other still hits and helps your stacking.
Well some details aside i do honestly agree, the present iteration is half baked and does nothing well which is truly unsatisfying.
In which regard? Generally kruber beats elf by miles in terms of durability,utility, horde control and often damage per attack as well…the only upside the elf has over him is speed, which is not weak, but still nothing else.
Said and done…spear heavy stab does indeed cleave 1 clanrats worth more(cata) but if you hit anything bigger than a clanrat like a marauder then it doesnt and even on clanrats it also loses 50% of it´s damage doing it.
*Edit *
I just found out that enhanced power made all my dagger damage checks bug out, F*ck.
Edit in progress. *
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you should be getting the same numbers from each dagger if you’re double headshotting
I thought it was strange too but i tried it from different angles&elevations while jumping or standing and the results remained the same.
In the end i came to suspect that the game always counts it as one dagger hitting first and having it apply stagger to the dummy thus boosting the damage the second hit does. This seems to be the only explanation short of the weapon system having gone broke again.
“Edit”
I just realized, it was due to enhanced power,it´s bugged and i messed up all my tests by accidentally using it while intending to use assassin, F*ck.
I´ve done further tests with assassins and it now seems like that even with it it still occurs that only one of the daggers crit…at least on the dummies and some bosses.
That isnt supposed to happen, right? Fairly sure myself that both are supposed to crit if they do.
if thp on cleave gets nerfed again, how do you think that will affect low cleave/single target weapons and will it make every match a competition to kill the most elites in melee to get decent thp? will people wote to kick fire wizards or just leave matches with a fire wizard if they are forced to pick thp on kill talent?
why not buff low cleave/single target weapons so that thp on kill is actually a good choice on it? currently, axes arent able to kill enemies or elites faster than higher cleave weapons, so why should people who strangely enough want to play with 1h axes, be severly punished by not getting any thp if there is a fire wizard on the team?
lets be real here. thp on hit isnt too strong, its just that all the other talents are only usable on specific weapons and can be very strong on those weapons. with thp on stagger, you can get near infinete health against hordes with a shield. with thp on crit and headshot you can get decent amount of thp with high crit weapons that are not too hard to headshot with too. the worst of the thp talents are thp on kill, since it encourages you to try to kill as many enemies as possible to get thp, and if you have a battle wizard and a bounty hunter/huntsman on the team too then you can say goodbye to any decent amount of thp.
the best thing would be if all careers had access to all the thp talents, that way, thp talents wouldnt force the player into certain weapons if a career have 2 bad thp talents that dont have synergy with its talents on other rows.
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You’re right, if thp on cleave is the only one that gets changed this would be pretty bad. Thp on crit/headshot would be getting buffed in my suggestions, and my suggested changes to thp on kill should lessen the elite kill competition.
Edit: Healshare could be easily replaced by a third career apropriate thp talent if Fatshark wants to keep the system of 3 in place. E.g. RV could get thp on kill (which would effectively be thp on dmg).
I just don’t know. What exactly do you want to do with these changes? Especially your proposed weapon changes. Most weapons you want changed are perfectly fine at the moment, both power-wise and identity-wise. A lot of your ideas also seem quite heavy-handed. But what “problem” do you want to solve here? It just feels like a bunch of tweaks for personal preference / ideas about what you feel the role a specific weapon should have, and not much else to me…
And as for your ideas about the stagger-damage perks / the THP-generation talents: Those are definitely too heavy handed. You’d make some of them entirely worthless. I personally feel the only problem with those systems at the moment is that some weapons are just too dependant on a certain talent which limits weapon choice for some characters, but I think that should be solved with availability of the perks in one way or another instead. Or make them innate to the weapon, etc. (Bulwark is bad, however, and should be removed / merged with Mainstay, however.)
You have a lot of ideas, and apparently some vision for how you would like this game to be. But it would mostly just feel like change for change’s sake to me, instead of a solution to a real problem. I think the devs should focus on other aspects of the game that need attention more, like a crafting overhaul, deeds rework, and new content, instead of endlessly fücking with weapon tweaks that just make stuff different instead of improving anything substantially.
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So I made some changes to the stagger suggestions earlier. Smiter doesn’t receive any nerfs, and Assassin’s only change is crit bodyshots only do 20% more damage instead of 40%, which is a big but I think fair nerf for what should really be a skill based talent.
I mean, a lot of ideas are thrown around on the forums. Not a whole lot of actual tweaks happen to the weapons though.
A lot of the changes are just consistency things or based on logic. Stabs make sense against berserkers. Why does the Bret Longsword have the same dodge range as a 1h Sword and bodyshot damage of a 2h Hammer vs armour? Why do Dual Sword lights cleave Maulers, but the Greatsword’s don’t despite both being the superarmour cleaving weapons? Why is the Rapier of all weapons a horde mincer and when Saltz has a Falchion? Why does a human with a Billhook have the same mobility as an elf with a spear? Why does the 1h Axe even have a third light attack when it’s a worse headshot angle with no advantages? Why does the 1h Sword have less dodges than the Bretonnian S&S? Why is Bulwark often worse for stagger centric builds than Enhanced Power due to stagger breakpoints? The list goes on.
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I did not have enough time to argoment my point before but now here it goes:
The bret longsword is alredy a very good weapon doesn’t need changes. The only thing it needs is a little faster block for reposte because how ping and block interact.
On the helbard i agree the light stab should be buffed but what you offer doesn’t seem enough/really that useful.
Greatsword again is alredy good weapon ( i hate to play it but because is boring ) you are offering a buff in something that is alredy the best weapon at, i find it eccessive.
1 h sword the dodge i crease is very nice, the L3 buff too but not what the weapon need to be on par with the other weapons.
About exe
I would agree to this if the BBB nerfs were reverted.
The reaper i feel with your changes the weapon would feel too strong on elites and too weak on anything else wich is a bad thing, too specialised weapons have no place in vermintide.
Elven spear has much faster attacks than the other spear like weapons so it doesen’t need increase in dodges especially considering that in the hands of handmaiden it gets the ridiculus 30% dodge distance.
I actually agree with the headshot hitbox and i agree 100% with the 1h axe buffs.
About stagger talents i think right how they are now the talents are fine with maybe bulwark being the weakest/niche one and trust me i would LOVE the 10% stagger power and i would enjoy it very much but sadly i would have to admit that it would be very OP even if i belive that few players really understand the power of stagger breakpoints.
Btw
You mean incrased by 3 second so it goes up to 8 or decreased ****to 3 seconds is not clear to me because right now it’s 5.
About thp:
I agree is the weakest talent but come on, one can gain 8 thp in one swing with this talent but on cleave it’s only 4.5? How is this fair?
This is basically good old lifesteal it would just become a better or worse version of thp on cleave so what’s even the point?
Very huge buff unless you put some limit on it but then you go back to the thp clone like the others.
This i support 100%
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For the Exec: As would I. I’m not of the opinion that the light attacks were what caused the Exec to be imbalanced. The nerfs had barely any effect on Merc and GK both, who are the only real offenders with this weapon. Just hurt Huntsmen and FK. 90% of the time I see this weapon it’s on GK and only 1 single chain ever gets used - heavy 1 > block cancel.
For the Rapier: The cleave nerf just needs to stop it from cleaving unstaggered Gors which is visually comical imo. Headshot buff was just to make it so you always want to headshot Maulers. Nerf to infantry bodyshot dmg could achieve the same thing and I would also be fine with that. Edit: It’s also because actually using the charged attacks, while beneficial, doesn’t really achieve that much more than just spamming lights.
The talent description reads as 2, but if it’s actually 5 then the duration is fine from the sounds of it and does not need a change.
For thp on kill, I neglected to mention it would be limited to the 1st enemy you hit in your cleave. Edit: Changed to be limited to the enemy you deal the most dmg to (this is better as otherwise you might hit a low hp enemy and deal like 2 dmg and then deal 6 to the next one).
For thp on crit/headshot, it’s because you have to multi headshot to get that much, while with cleave you just have to hit the enemy. 2nd headshot could be reduced to 2 thp I suppose.
True i was sure it was 5 for some reason then definitly would benefit an increse up to 5 seconds.
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That’s your opinion. The way I see it, it’s by far the best tHP talent for most weapons in the game, very safe and reliable, and gives too much tHP than I’d like it to. Nerfing the first target tHP gain is reasonable - makes it more about cleaving multiple enemies at once, nerfs farming single targets like monsters for tHP, and with some buffs and changes let’s other tHP talents shine as well.
Well then you’d see tHP on cleave being used on mostly everything. Not even with 1h axe do I think tHP on headshot/crit works well.
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this is what fatshark did with wom, and everyone hated it.
well ofc it is. every talent that is reliable and decent/good on all weapons will almost always be the best choice.
the other thp talents are just worse in comparison since they are only/mostly usable on certain weapons. thp on stagger for shields and heavy stagger weapons, thp on crit for high crit weapons, and no one wants to use thp on kill since its just not that good. and just force a competition to get most kills for the ones who use it.
this has plagued the game for a very long time where talents decide what weapons to use. dual weapons for waystalker and shade, shield or another high stagger weapon for iron breaker, 2h weapon build for slayer.
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No, they did not lower first target hit tHP to 0.5 and kept the next 4 targets give 1 tHP, totalling to 4.5 tHP per five targets cleaved.
A talent that’s decent/good on all weapons and is also reliable sounds a bit too strong for me. Which is why you nerf tHP on cleave a bit and buff and change other tHP talents.
Yeah, that’s the thing with every tHP talent. Even cleave in theory. It’s just that cleave is a bit too good and too reliable, while other tHP talents could use a change.
Plagued the game? Mate that’s just what careers are about. They’re specifically tailored to be better with certain weapons and loadouts. I don’t think it’s fair to complain about Ironbreaker or FK being good with shields, Shade being good with dual weapons or whatever. I don’t get quite get this, are you against careers specialising in certain areas? Are you also against weapon restrictions like Slayer being unable to use shield weapons?
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