War Priest of Sigmar - Detailed Balance Analysis

The following is simultaneously directed to the developers and the community for feedback and information purposes.

The following is a collection of my thoughts on the initial release of the new Saltzpyre playable class: War Priest of Sigmar (WPOS). I will detail my thoughts on his current design, what I think is good and bad, and some recommended easier changes compared to what I have seen done in the past, therefore what I believe can be done. I will not be discussing reworks! (I’m not a developer lmao)

I’m a level 35+1040 Saltzpyre main (praise Sigmar) (I also enjoy my fair share of everyone else) with over 3000 hours in-game, and I play almost every difficulty, ranging from Recruit to modded DWONS.

WPOS is certainly playable. He can hit the rats and secure that sweet, sweet vault full of blue dust. But… he feels noticeably underwhelming compared to a lot of other classes. For the purpose of providing informative feedback, I will be providing my opinions on the fun of the class, the balance of the class, the purpose of the class, my overall impressions of the class’s abilities and weapons, and the ideas behind my suggestions.

To start with some good, I like the class aesthetically. I think many people do. Actually, I haven’t seen a single person say that he is lame. Being a large angry librarian that punches rats is actually my career goal, and swinging around a big glowing hammer and exploding several green lads is very fun. He is a handsome man. Great work on the look of this absolute unit. He looks like he could, would, and will kick your face in and inform you that his God (the best God) is better than your God.

Regarding base stats and move sets, I think his new weapons are quite fine and balanced, which is great! Even on the meat-grinder called Zealot, they feel very useable.

Holy Greathammer feels fun, it hits decently hard, and punching is very fun. The second light attack feels like it has some weird hit registration sometimes, and some people dislike the attack patterns of the weapon, claiming they are clunky, or complicated for no good reason, which may be worth revising. I would not be against simplifying the combos of the weapon simply to allow simplified gameplay for a wider variety of players, or for those used to the original Greathammer. I would also be in favor of allowing the punch to combo into heavy 3 (the heavy overhead), to allow the weapon to hit really hard right away when you need to do so. Kruber and Bardin (his biggest competition regarding similar classes) have weapon options for this, so he should have an option to do so too. More on this later in the post. Hammer+Tome does something similar to this, but that overhead attack is more for crowd control than heavy single-target damage.

Speaking of Hammer+Tome, it is a very interesting weapon! It is fairly simple to use once you figure out how it works, and the utility of the magical heavy attacks is impactful and interesting. I do feel that the time it takes to fully charge the heavy attack is a bit too long, but that may be due to the limited access to attack speed inherent to WPOS.

Flail+Shield is an interesting addition that is pretty functional against most enemies. Some people have pointed out that the heavy attack does not always actually attack when the button is released, which may be a bug.

Overall, the base power and performance of these new weapons feel decently functional and fun. On higher difficulties, the damage output is a bit of a problem, but that has more to do with WPOS than the weapons.

As for the returning weapons, I won’t say much about them, they’ve been discussed extensively in the past, but I do think it’s strange to find a DLC within a DLC.

Now for the class itself. There are some great and not-so-great things about this class.

The best comparisons for how the class should feel IN MY OPINION would be to other double-melee classes (Grail Knight, Slayer) and other tanks (Foot Knight, Ironbreaker). An argument can try to be made for WPOS to be a “support”, but who would I compare that to? Is it someone who provides party buffs? Many classes do that. Is it someone who heals the team? Mercenary or Unchained? Is it Ranger Veteran or Waystalker? Grail Knight?

Sister of the Thorn?

horde

What I believe WPOS aims to be is both a melee brawler and a durable crowd controller. Roles filled by Grail Knight/Slayer, and Foot Knight/Ironbreaker. So for this argument, that is what I will mainly be comparing him to.

I think WPOS should feel somewhere between the two, having talent options that allow him to fill the role desired by the player. I think that his design currently shows this, as he has talents mainly pertaining to hitting for dealing extra damage and increasing his ability to survive fights. Currently, he is somewhat lacking in his abilities to fill either of these roles. And being able to be both at once isn’t that beneficial if he’s not very good at either. If you’re going to have a class that can only melee fight, he should be able to do it well. If you are going to tank, you should be able to survive and control many enemies. Currently, he is a fairly mediocre melee fighter, and his survivability is a bit low, but that is mainly because of some bugs. Again, he is playable, flashy, cool… but he does not fill his roles very well. I really want to like him more but he needs a bit of love. I want to love this man I want to kiss his bald head additionally I think it’s good that he was not released as an absolute broken powerhouse like some other weird class apparently was? Anyway, that’s good, but yeah I think it is buffing time.

Comparing the double-melee classes, WPOS obviously lacks anywhere near the consistent damage and quick killing power that the other double-melee classes have (attack speed and mobility mainly, his damage-per-hit is mostly alright). Obviously, since he is designed to also be a tank, I don’t think he needs buffs as significant as those that the other double-melee classes have, but some more decent options buffing his consistent damage output would be a welcome addition. I personally would favor some form of attack speed and movement speed options. His weapons and talents let him hit decently hard when they are being utilized, but he does not hit very quickly, nor does he have very good mobility to go and hit things.

Apart from his serviceable weaponry, WPOS deals his damage through his main passive ability “Righteous Fury”, which activates once a number of enemies are slain near WPOS and provides a 20% additional damaging attack against enemies hit by WPOS during its active duration.

There is a minor argument for how it does very little to assist against boss-type enemies, and many are saying his lack of damage against bosses is very noticeable. The only applications of Righteous Fury pertaining to bosses currently are to guarantee its activation once the boss is killed, as well as being able to provide a quick heal of 25 health to your team if you are using the talent “From Fury, Fortitude”, which lets you heal your team by amounts calculated by the health of the killed enemies (Bigger enemy = bigger heal). The heal is a nice little bonus if you are using that talent, but you have to get the killing blow on the boss, and with your lower DPS and movement, it’s not exactly guaranteed.

There is currently a talkative argument going around about how it takes too long to activate Righteous Fury, and that it isn’t active for long enough once it finally does get activated. The common complaint I am seeing is that Righteous Fury activates too late in most scenarios, being that it activates once fights are nearly complete, providing little value. His entire Tier 20 talent selection also contains buffs that are only active during Righteous Fury. This means that currently, his identifying passive ability and 1 out of the 4 of his main unique abilities in any build are currently quite underutilized. And as people are pointing out, that’s not very fun!

I believe that these arguments are valid, and I believe a slight buff to Righteous Fury in some way would be a good buff to the class. The easiest buff would most likely be a small decrease to the requirements for its activation, probably by slightly tweaking the amount of Fury generated by some enemies (different enemies generate different amounts of Fury. Bigger enemies = more Fury). If you manage to get it to activate early in a fight, the duration of the ability is fine. It lasts a decent chunk of time due to the fact that the duration can be extended by continuing to have enemies die near you. Buffing Fury generation would also buff the duration, so some other numbers may need to be tweaked to get it to feel good. How much of a buff would be up to the developers, but a small increase I think would receive more praise than criticism, as well as not create a scenario in which his Tier 20 talents become too powerful due to their increased uptime. The one to watch would be “Empowered Smite”, which doubles the smite damage up to 40%. This could be lowered to compensate for any buffs to Righteous Fury, making this damage bonus more consistent, and less of a sudden burst of damage. Buffing Righteous Fury would increase his consistent damage, and provide a better feeling for the character, as your talent choices will matter more often and be used more. Feeling impactful is fun!

To touch on Empowered Smite, it is cool, I find myself picking it often because I often have another player in my game that can provide healing, and I often find myself needing to increase my DPS when playing WPOS, since his damage is on the lower end.

WPOS also has a passive bonus that boosts his damage against Super Armor. This is a nice little bonus, although limited to only a few enemies in the game, especially on lower difficulties, as well as depending on the map and access to the Winds of Magic DLC. It is very niche, and therefore, not very impactful. A solution for this lack of impact could be changing this passive bonus to damage against all armor, be it super-armor or normal armor. The damage percentage provided would have to be lowered I think, with the resulting new percentage depending on how else the class is changed.

WPOS has access to Smiter, which is one of the better choices in general, and also given his arsenal of hammers. Mainstay and Enhanced Power are also there if you want to use those for some reason.

Apart from his passives, WPOS currently has 3 talent options for improving his damage, being “Rising Judgement”, a power bonus applied to the next heavy attack after a few regular hits, “Sigmar’s Executioner”, a stacking bonus to critical hit chance. and “Prayer of Vengeance”, a team-wide buff to critical hit damage.

“Rising Judgement” is a decent talent! It provides a consistent extra chunk of damage every few attacks, and his arsenal of hammers have attack patterns that fluidly incorporate heavy attacks into their combos, making effective and practical use of this talent. There is a problem currently, however, as the talent only increases damage, and does not increase cleave/stagger power, as the wording “power” in the talent description would advertise. Even though the talent currently provides less of a bonus than advertised, this talent is still good, and arguably the best consistent damage boosting talent available to WPOS.

“Sigmar’s Executioner” requires elite enemies to be killed by you to gain stacks, which outside of a passive buff against 1 elite, being the highest-health regular enemy in the game, can be challenging to accomplish. Difficulty also factors into the effectiveness of this talent. In lower difficulties, there are fewer elites, and in higher difficulties, it takes longer to fight and kill numerous high health elites. Hammers also have low critical hit modifiers compared to many other weapons. The critical hits provide some good staggering power, but hammers in general already have decent staggering power. On top of that, you are likely to have teammates that hit harder than you, hit faster than you, move faster than you, and can hit farther than you (with ranged weapons), which makes activating this talent much more difficult. Some of the changes I recommended before, such as adding attack speed, movement speed, or slightly modifying some of his weapons, would help WPOS activate and gain value from these talents, since killing the tough enemy is the requirement to gain the damage bonus in the first place.

Overall, his melee capabilities are noticeably weaker than classes similar to him, being he has rather limited options towards improving his DPS and mobility.

I have finished comparing WPOS to the double-melee classes and discussing his current damage options. Now, I will discuss how well he compares to other tank classes, specifically Foot Knight and Ironbreaker.

Firstly I’ll mention his talents that increase survivability are mostly good!

“Divine Excoriation” lets you stagger enemies all around you with a push during Righteous Fury. Good crowd control, and good if healing is not an issue for your team. Also quite good if you are playing solo since you will need more space to do everything yourself. :robot:

I briefly mentioned “From Fury, Fortitude” earlier. It enables you to heal your team during Righteous Fury. Having extra ways to gain health is usually very helpful, so this is a good talent.

The flaw of these 2 talents, as well as Empowered Smite, is that they require you to activate Righteous Fury, which is inconsistent. Buffing Righteous Fury will indirectly buff these talents, which is good.

“Prayer of Vengeance” increases the team’s stagger power by 25%. A useful bonus, and it has some interesting applications that enable new stagger breakpoints for other classes. It also enables you and other players to use shields effectively against more enemies on Cataclysm without having to reroll items for 20 minutes for very specific power vs. Berserker properties. It saves time, and lives!

“Prayer of Hardiness” increases the team’s health by 15%. I recall seeing somebody point out something weird about how it’s calculated, comparing it to Handmaiden and stating that it provides less health than her talent that also gives her 15% more health. So, that might be worth checking on, but other than that, it’s a solid talent, it makes you tanky, and it makes your team tougher too.

These team-wide buffs would be a great place to add an additional buff to just the WPOS. This would make it so these talents give you something, as well as let you give something to the entire team. Something to consider if the developers are interested in buffing the offensive capabilities of the class.

So, comparing WPOS with the other tanks, he feels decently tanky. They all have similar damage reduction, have options to increase survivability, and WPOS has access to the most consistent THP talents with weapons that compliment them, so his comparative THP generation and survivability are good. But! It should be better because he is currently bugged!

The talent “Implacable” is bugged and only provides a 4% damage reduction! He is supposed to ignore 20% of damage taken, and take another 20% of damage over 3 seconds as damage-over-time. Currently, he takes 36% of damage over time! The ability to activate “Shield of Faith” to stop taking damage somewhat negates this, but it will be a welcome fix once this is resolved! Thanks in advance!

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So assuming that Implacable will be patched to function as intended, combined with Shield of Faith and solid options for increasing health and staggering ability, his talent selection in this regard contains good options for survivability that adequately compares to the other tanks, especially when specialized in.

So, is WPOS a good tank? Well, he is tanky. He is a tough old guy. Durable lad. And he’ll be a bit better once he’s fixed so that’s all fine and good.

There is a problem though…

WPOS, in comparison with the other tanks, lacks any significant ability to provide any additional utility that the other tanks can provide.

IB and FK have ranged weapons, so they can snipe dangerous enemies with Xbow or Handgun, or deal heavy burst damage to groups with Blunderbuss, flamethrower, or Torpedo. WPOS cannot use ranged weapons, and cannot reliably reach faraway enemies in any timely manner. Unyielding Blessing helps a little bit with this, but it is often not enough.

Other tanks also have talent options to build for more damaging roles, with consistent buffs to attack speed, damage, or power, either constantly or at the press of a button:

Foot Knight - “Have At Thee!”, “Crowd Clearer”, “Comrade in Arms”, “Bull of Ostland”
Ironbreaker - The entirety of Tier 10, “Vengeance”, “Drengbarazi Oath”

WPOS has no consistent bonuses to power or attack speed. I would suggest adding small buffs to some of these stats somewhere in the talent selection, and I will also be suggesting changes in the TL;DR section at the end.

They also possess more powerful melee weapons for quickly dealing with larger enemies in the form of Ex Sword, Coghammer, or War Pick. The double-melee classes also have all of these weapons.

My suggested changes from earlier somewhat solve this in the form of changing Holy Greathammer’s punch combo, as well as changing super-armor damage to reduced regular armor damage. Armor damage would also improve the power of Single Hammer, which I believe is currently his least popular weapon, as well as the designed single-target damage of Hammer+Tome. These changes would improve WPOS in this aspect while still keeping him less powerful than the options available to his competition.

To get back to actual comparisons, the other tanks are also some of the best classes for fighting monsters, with “Valiant Charge”, “Gromril Curse”, and Trollhammer Torpedo providing excellent control, and their previously mentioned talents and weapons for dealing monster damage. Shield of Faith feels like it should be able to stagger a boss, but it currently does not. Changing it to be able to do so would be beneficial, and its 70-second cooldown ensures that it would not be overpowered. Paired with United In Prayer it may be powerful, as this would enable a double knockback effect, but this aspect of the Career Skill could be removed from the talent to avoid this if desired.

To conclude, being able to build the class around being a hybrid melee brawler and dedicated tank, leaning more towards whichever style of play you more desire, with more consistent options in a variety of combat scenarios, would really improve the class.

As of right now, the most appealing aspects of the class are the weapons and his Career Skill, with much of the rest of him feeling underwhelming. These things were bound to occur since I imagine the developers wanted to avoid another scenario similar to the release reaction of the last DLC class. The good news is that buffing him is fairly straightforward, and it seems easy to implement. I believe that a lot of these suggested changes would elicit a positive reaction from the community.

TL;DR suggested changes to WPOS:

The goal of changes is to place WPOS on more equal footing with Grail Knight, Slayer, Foot Knight, and Ironbreaker, with a variety of good talent options towards functioning as a melee brawler, a tank, or a hybrid that remains effective at each role.

WEAPONS

  • Allow Holy Greathammer push-attack to combo into heavy 3 overhead attack
  • Optionally simplify attack patterns of Holy Greathammer for ease of use
  • Reduce the time required to fully charge magical heavy attack of Hammer+Tome
  • Optionally increase the stamina value of Flail+Shield to match Hammer+Shield
  • Optionally increase monster damage on a weapon to provide the class with a stronger option against bosses
  • Check on general clunkiness of weapons regarding attack hitboxes and on the release of attack button press

TALENTS

  • Optionally increase the rate at which the ability bar is generated slightly
  • Increase the values for Fury generation, whether it be per unit or per difficulty modifier, the unit is probably better
  • Reduce the rate at which Fury decays outside of combat
  • Optionally implement a bonus to Fury generation somewhere in the talent selection, unnecessary if Fury generation is buffed
  • Buff the explosion from Shield of Faith to stagger Chaos Warriors and bosses to equal stagger power of Foot Knight and Ironbreaker
  • Change Enemy of Chaos 30% super-armor damage to 20% armor damage to be more applicable but less powerful, and still weaker against infantry, Maulers, berserkers, and most bosses
  • Optionally change Enemy of Chaos 30% super-armor damage to armor damage without a damage reduction
  • :star: Optionally change Enemy of Chaos 30% super-armor damage to apply to some enemy types, such as elites, specials, and/or monsters, to allow the class to be much more comparable to other double-melee classes, as well other Saltzpyre classes. This is probably a better idea honestly.
  • Fix Implacable not working as intended
  • Replace or significantly buff Unstoppable Force in some way
  • Fix Rising Judgement not working as intended
  • Optionally allow Sigmar’s Executioner to also activate on special enemy kill
  • Reduce the damage bonus granted by Empowered Smite to 30%
  • Optionally remove the delayed application of Smite by Empowered Smite
  • Optionally implement a bonus to damage/power/monster-damage somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with either Unstoppable Force, Prayer of Vengeance, or Prayer of Might
  • Implement a bonus to attack speed somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with either Unstoppable Force, Prayer of Vengeance, or Prayer of Might
  • Implement a bonus to movement speed somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with Divine Excoriation (active during Righteous Fury)
  • Fix Prayer of Hardiness possibly not working as intended
  • Optionally buff Prayer of Hardiness to 20% to equal that of the Necklace property
  • Optionally implement some minor additional buffs to coincide with some/all Tier 25 talents

I don’t expect all of these ideas to be taken, but I think they are all good changes that would keep the class in similar power to his competition, and allow for various builds and playstyles that are impactful and fun.

Some ideas here are borrowed from the community, others from my own theories. I may edit this as I learn even more about the class.

9 Likes

Flail and Flail and Shield both have the same delay issue on heavies. I reported a similar bug on bretsword, and they fixed that one a couple of patches ago ; but the flail one remains…


Does the healing trigger off of a monster killing blow, if that monster dying is what gets you into a fury state ?

This is the only difficulty WPoS encounters when dealing with elites. His elite damage is great with all weapons, needing only 2-4 simple and rapid hits (4-6 for Chaos Warriors).

Nope, I disagree here. I’ve seen it heal more than it should have but that was the effect of either a Boon of Shallya or SotT’s An Attendance of Munificents passive. Playing in the thirst curse in the wastes, or with boons like Khaine’s Fury (?) (the one that gives you power but you take damage when you attack when above 50% health), I haven’t observed that.

Citing Coghammer and Warpick in the same sentence about balance is an odd choice, but I see what you mean. Where I disagree is in that WPoS is not lacking at all in armour damage. The Holy Great Hammer and the Hammer and Tome both have excellent armour killing capability, and so do actually all of his weapons save perhaps for Hammer and Shield which relies on push-attacks and therefore is limited by stamina.

This would overtune him IMO. He doesn’t need that.


TL;DR

WEAPONS

  • Allow Holy Greathammer push-attack to combo into heavy 3 overhead attack
  • Optionally simply attack patterns of Holy Greathammer
  • Reduce the time required to fully charge magical heavy attack of Hammer+Tome
  • Optionally increase the stamina value of Flail+Shield to match Hammer+Shield
  • Optionally increase monster damage on a weapon to provide the class with a stronger option against bosses
  • Check on general clunkiness of weapons regarding attack hitboxes and on the release of attack button press

TALENTS

  • Optionally increase the rate at which the ability bar is generated slightly
  • Increase the values for Fury generation, whether it be per unit or per difficulty modifier, the unit is probably better
  • Optionally reduce the rate at which Fury decays outside of combat
  • Optionally implement a bonus to Fury generation somewhere in the talent selection, unnecessary if Fury generation is buffed
  • Buff the explosion from Shield of Faith to stagger Chaos Warriors and bosses to equal stagger power of Foot Knight and Ironbreaker
  • Change Enemy of Chaos 30% super-armor damage to 20% armor damage (not power) to be more applicable but less powerful, and still weaker against Maulers, berserkers, and most bosses
  • Fix Implacable not working as intended
  • Replace or significantly buff Unstoppable Force in some way
  • Fix Rising Judgement not working as intended
  • Optionally allow Sigmar’s Executioner to also activate on special enemy kill
  • Reduce the damage bonus granted by Empowered Smite to 30%
  • Optionally remove the delayed application of Smite by Empowered Smite
  • Optionally implement a bonus to damage/power/monster-damage somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with either Unstoppable Force, Prayer of Vengeance, or Prayer of Might
  • Implement a bonus to attack speed somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with either Unstoppable Force, Prayer of Vengeance, or Prayer of Might
  • Implement a bonus to movement speed somewhere in the talent selection, recommended paired with Divine Excoriation (active during Righteous Fury)
  • Fix Prayer of Hardiness possibly not working as intended
  • Optionally buff Prayer of Hardiness to 20% to equal that of the Necklace property
  • Optionally implement some minor additional buffs to coincide with some/all Tier 25 talents
  • Fix The Comet’s Gift possibly not working as intended
1 Like

warrior priest feels very underwhelming next to literally everyone else. some things that have irritated me in the last 2 days:

-trying to kill elites with GK, sister, and slayer is an absolute nightmare. even moreso with ranged careers with one shot body shot breakpoints. if warrior priest got 20% dmg bonus to all armored, he would still suck. warrior priest def needs a buff but other careers need to be balanced too.

-fury. it just sucks. one thing I noticed is what is apparently considered being “out of combat” is not killing anything. so if you’re kiting and your whole team is dead, you lose your bar progress. being “in combat” should pause the bar generation as long as there are hostiles nearby then start generating again when enemies are dying. you’re right, it does take too long and it’s quite stressful to maintain.

  • he’s slow. GK has move speed plus move tech weapons plus he can hold his magic sword to move faster. Slayer has leap and move/attack speed. warrior priest is literally slower than foot knight. idk makes no sense to me.

-sister staff should not be able to pick up chaos warriors. this didn’t used to annoy me until priest came out. now it’s even more stressful to get elite kills. I don’t get how a giant green tornado can’t pick up a chaos warrior but a stick elf can?

-his group increased hp talent gets removed when he dies. that doesn’t make sense cuz the elf has team boons that continue to work even when she’s dead. either remove the elf boons upon death or make other team boons continue to work after death. why does elf get special treatment?

I like warrior priest a lot but I feel like I have to work 100x harder in killing enemies than everyone else.

also, I read the above reply and chuckled a bit. there is nothing you can do to make warrior priest “overtuned” because no matter how much you buff him, he still won’t be able to one shot 2 chaos warrior in 2 seconds like GK, which in my opinion is absolutely absurd lol

the bar though. it needs some heavy face-lifting or it needs to be removed and replaced with a stack style buff. it makes warrior priest a literal job to constantly micro manage the bar.

I really like your suggestions. I just wanted to share the things that have annoyed me about the new class. He has the potential of being strong but feels like he was harshly over balanced due to the release of twig elf.

6 Likes

For my own little toss-in of feedback, I’ll make a wild suggestion.

Completely REMOVE the decay for fury. Have it simply as a bar that fills from enemies dying nearby. Additionally, have the bar start to tick up while there is a boss in close combat.

So very, very many times I get to see that little bar on the edge of activating, and then combat ends, or people outspeed me and kill things before I can get into range, leaving the Fury to decay to nothing and it has to start all over again. Having it be like the Grail Knight’s strong potion Boon wouldn’t be so bad. Kill ‘X’ number of small enemies, with boosts for elites until you get your own little super-mode for a brief bit.

Heck, you could add something influencing Fury like that into one of the Prayer talent rows. Prayer of Vengeance could give you more Fury on a critical hit. The Talent that gives extra Stagger Power, Prayer of Might, could count a stagger as a portion of a kill. Prayer of Hardiness could give you fury on HP loss, with a possibility of giving Fury on TEAMMATE HP loss, which would be very useful.

No it isn’t, it’s notably poor if anything. It takes an absurd amount of hits to kill a c3 CW with most of his weapons, even with the extra bonus he gets against them and landing only headshots.

His armour damage is one of the bigger reasons he’s unlikely to be picked, when you could bring a WHC and get better utility, not lose a ranged weapon and continue running GK.

5 Likes

Are you trying to say that Holy Great Hammer L1 > L2 > H3 > repeat takes ages to kill a CW ?
I agree I don’t really notice the impact of +30%, as I said elsewhere I think it’s just there to compensate for an inherent weakness built into the weapons as to not make Zealot stupidly OP ; but still. He is not weak in any regards against elites.

2 Likes

No, I said

2h is fine, but still below “great”. Him having one weapon that does decent elite damage isn’t the same as him doing great elite damage will all weapons. Most inherently implies “not all”.

Compared to any other melee class he’s just meh against them, and the utility he offers isn’t enough to beat out other jobs (some of which have much better elite damage, and ranged weapons as well). There’s not really any situation you’d want to run WP instead of WHC and GK, as far as I see it.

3 Likes

Yes, if the final kill to activate Righteous Fury is your kill, you gain the health from From Fury, Fortitude. Bosses on-kill grant 25 HP to the team, as the health gained from From Fury, Fortitute is equal to 50% of the healing values of TempHP-on-kill Tier 5 talents.

Hmm, maybe that’s what it was, I would witness the timer resetting constantly and then filling my health to full on most occasions, so that is how I interpreted the effect. If that’s the case and I am incorrect than that’s good that there’s one less thing to change.

Yes lmao
But I’m not here to talk about Bardin balance at the moment

I agree that his armor damage is serviceable, however I believe it would still be a good buff to double-down on this aspect of the class. This change would increase his power against Stormvermin, Warpfire Throwers, Gunners, Wargors, and Stormfiends. Compared to Grail Knight and Slayer, who have much-higher damage bonuses against all enemies, and who have more speed, I think this is fine. His base power would remain the same against hordes, monsters, maulers, and berserkers, and being that his arsenal of hammers should be useful against armor, I think it is thematic and fine. Damage against other enemies would also still rely on the selection of other power-boosting talents and the ability to keep Righteous Fury up and running. Also helps if you’re playing him more as a tank, since it is a passive rather than a talent and you may not want damage-boosting talents for your build.

If they really wanted to try something out, developers could try 20% against some combination of elites, specials, and/or monsters, which would put him even closer in power to GK/Slayer, as well as WHC/Zealot. Righteous Fury would still be reserved for Hordes and whatever isn’t covered by the passive. But if they provide him with power/damage/attack speed/movement speed talents this is less of an issue.

Yeah lol
It’s doable, but man it’s rough

GK is a little silly

Currently, and with this armor change, he can 7-shot a CW with bodyshot light overheads from the Holy Greathammer, which is ok-ish, the problem is more his lack of a burst melee weapon, like Ex Sword, Coghammer, and War Pick.

There are ideas for reworking Righteous Fury, but for the sake of simplifying my already lengthy opinions, as well as providing a timely fix (I don’t know how long it would take to program the talent over), I have avoided mentioning reworks. But yeah, Functioning similarly to the Grail Knight talent “Virtue of the Penitent” is a decent option.

I don’t think the decay should be removed completely, but increasing the time it takes before it starts to decay, and/or reducing how quickly it decays, would be good ideas, in my opinion.

1 Like

Agreed, he should be able to acceptably fill the roles of those he would be replacing.

1 Like

Shoddy draft of talent changes

2 Likes

image

image

I’m all in for getting random boons in the wastes, just give me an X% increase to something Kappa

More seriously though, overall this looks nice without either taking away his role nor buffing him to orbital levels where elgi is.

I like the little additions to row 20, but I think the middle one on row 25 might be a bit too much. 25% stagger power is already huge in my opinion, so I think I’d add the attack speed to the crit power (cause crit power is a dump stat anyway).

1 Like

Fair, the reasoning behind that was mainly for shields, saving on breakpoints with the staggering power, and making up for the fact that they are typically used without Swift Slaying, as a sort-of all in improvement for his shield play

WPOS also doesn’t get an extra stamina shield like the other tanks to do (and HM for some reason) so something for stamina could be added. Probably not BCR, though, but stamina/stamina regen could be a better addition. Probably a stamina shield would be best, it’s a small bonus and synergistic.

Keep seeing people in favor of replacing the crit-power talent as well, could be more useable with the buffed crit-chance talent but I wouldn’t be against it changing either.

Stagger power, or even specifically push strength would make more sense to me here, and could then be combined with the 25% stagger power for the whole party talent to do a control oriented build if that’s your jam.

Doesn’t need number buffs, just needs to do what it says it does, and actually increase heavy attack power. 40% is plenty, especially when you consider it is (presumably) multiplicative with smite/enhanced smite.

Why on earth would you nerf enhanced smite? Also if righteous fury is to be changed in some way the base effect should be changed. Giving the option for higher uptime within the talent tree will likely just lead to that talent being a must pick. Don’t like how you’ve handled this row at all.

Crit power is just generally bad, and especially bad for someone who runs around with exclusively blunt weapons. This one should probably be replaced with something else entirely. It’s not related to the crit chance talent being unimpactful, it’s just not a good property to begin with.

25% stagger power for the whole team is enough on its own. Also it’s ok for a melee class to not have attack speed boosts. Attack speed is so good both offensively and defensively it’s almost always going to be the right choice. I think his tree is more interesting without it.

It’s already a very popular pick for that row, I see no reason to buff it.

Otherwise I’ll say it’s a more restrained list of changes than I expected, but still unrealistic in its scope. We should really focus our attention on pushing FS towards the most meaningful single change they could do for the career, and that’s probably righteous fury uptime. Either auto activated on bosses, or faster generation time (only when not currently in righteous fury, otherwise you could keep it up indefinitely too easily).

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That is really the single point I would tweak about WP. Just generate it a bit faster. I killed 2 CW, a couple of maulers and a couple of SVs in the middle of a horde and it still wasn’t up. It usually pops up at the end of a horde or of an event, and though I do get some significant use out if the fury, it also often feels like it shows up when the party’s over.
Hell I don’t even need it on monsters, though the fact it triggers off of them dying is usually pointless.

3 Likes

I’ll specify here that the tree is more to express ideas, and less so where those ideas should go.

Also going to point out that it’s likely some changes if made, will be quick fixes, as evidence of previous buffs/nerfs to past DLC careers, (Radient Inheritence, Combined Arms), so some of my suggestions are attempts to reflect that likely reality. I’m not trying to come up with anything too different or new.

lol you’re right I just like rounder numbers

It is less interesting to have 2 perks that do the same thing. Ordinary power provides more uses, can still combo with the 25% power bonus to reach some fun breakpoints (FK also can reach 35% stagger power and he has builds using it), and it provides an option for damage right away, that the other 2 talents in the row do not, at the cost of being reduced, and paired with a defensive bonus. It’s also a reflection of Combat in Arms, so it’s a buff that has been done before.

Enhanced Smite is nerfed because if Righteous Fury uptime becomes more frequent then selecting a 100% increase in your bonus damage (Smite from 20% to 40%) gets pretty appealing, and in my opinion, too appealing, and may also become too strong when combined with other theoretical buffs to other ordinary stats, such as possible implementations of talents that boost damage/power/attack speed, etc. The healing power and pushing power of the other talents is already fairly tame, regardless of duration. Fury rate generation bonus is an idea if developers don’t want to alter the rate at which Fury builds by too much on the default class, but still want to provide it as an option somewhere. Same goes for the duration bonus on healing, it is there to show that it is something that could be looked at. There is a lot of talk from people wanting Righteous Fury to have more uptime, so I’ve provided some examples of what could be done to do that. Placement in these cases is arbitrary. Though to be fair, I provided no explanation for the image lmao

Yes, I agree. There’s a problem now though, a developer really liked a youtube video showing WPOS playing nice and fun with Shade so I feel like it is going to stay in the game now lmao

Perhaps, I have an updated image I haven’t bothered posting that replaced the attack speed with a stamina shield, if the talent were to have an additional buff to only WPOS. To me that’s a better idea, or leaving it as is would also probably be fine.

I think WPOS needs some base bonus to power/damage/attack speed somewhere, as I’ve explained, to compare better to other double-melee classes. Of course not as strong as the options they have, but an option available. Sister of the Thorn surprisingly actually has very solid Tier 10 perks that show off this design idea nicely.

Probably yeah lmao

I’d argue this is very realistic, except for the fact that developers barely touched the last few DLC characters, which could provide evidence for them not wanting to provide numerous changes once again. Though, they did seem to figure out not to release something as broken as SotT, so maybe they’re interesting in pushing forward a more in-depth revision of the class if they like the feedback. So to provide incentive for this possible outcome, I’ve provided a lot of feedback. I don’t expect every suggestion to be accepted though that’d be pretty wild lmao

Oh I have no doubt that they are quite aware of the opinions on RF, it’s being talked about quite a bit

If they don’t want to rework how Righteous Fury functions and activates and whatnot, (for example, to make RF more available during boss fights) it’s probably better to provide flat buffs to other parts of the character to still buff that class in regards to these things. Also keep in mind the developers are probably quite cautious with making aspects of the character too powerful, and are partial to stat adjustments because they are safer and easier to implement. A bandaid fix is an acceptable term for it, and has been done in the past, and is a likely occurrence for a timely update if the class is changed. If they want to take longer to think of fresh and more different ways to change the class then I think they should speak up about it, but I find it more likely that number adjustments to different usual stats are what would be changed, along with slight buffs to the greatest offenders (example being Righteous Fury generation).

2 Likes

well, i have some other views.
first, this new dlc only gives us a independence guy who only use new weapons and others can not use them too. this make this dlc don’t worth these money. so we can make captain using hammer-tomb and BH using double-hammer.
second, the fury is totally useless even during legendary lessons so some talents is useless too.
third, a double-melee class do not have Self-protection against special enemy ,even using f you still be caught or shot away.
fourth, a unforgiveable low-damage for a double-melee class who have many kill-enemy-talaent. this shows some Numerical design problem. we know you guys all busy making darktide but the unfree dlc should have more love.

Only somewhat related to this entire conversation but I just had a Vietnam flashback to the old proposed Huntsman rework and the reaction to that

Any Sure Shot gamers in here?

1 Like

I proc Fury pretty dang often, but I play very aggressively and don’t have much downtime between battles. I’m also not sure on the range, maybe just make it so that it gains power whenever any ally kills any enemy? IMO it’d be best off as a shorter duration ability that you could trigger. Maybe hold F + Middle click to engage Fury?

level 10 thoughts: Fix Rising Judgement so it works as described plz. Hitting 5 enemies with 1 attack = 1 stack of Rising Judgement when it should be 5. It’s still pretty good though. The other two abilities are awful and need a serious re-work

level 20: From Fury, Fortitude is incredible and gives an assload of health. Seriously I feel like my party is invincible atm with WPoS thanks to this. Empowered smite is also incredibly good. Both are excellent and need no change. Haven’t tried divine excoriation because needing even more stagger isn’t my thing when I’m playing with the two handed hammer. Stagger conditioned on fury is also a lot worse than damage or health gain, because you can’t really control when you need more stagger whilst you can always use more damage and health.

level 25: Stagger power is such a hard to value thing, and no one really can adapt on the fly to being able to stagger certain enemies with different moves because WPoS is in the party with this skill on. I feel like Prayer of Might should get a minor buff like +10% damage to staggered enemies so its more attractive. Prayer of Vengeance could use a simple +5% crit rate.

level 30: I like all the options here quite a lot. No change needed.

Haven’t tried all the weapons yet, Holy hammer is just too damn fun.

Eh it’s fine how it is. Also much easier to keep track of how many stacks you’re at without staring at your buff bar. Getting 40% heavy attack damage just for using l1 once in a horde seems highly unnecessary.

Huh? How is 15% crit chance on a career that lacks many steroids (and thus GREATLY benefits from increased SS uptime) bad? Y’all are sleeping on this talent hard. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it turned out to be a better average dps increase than rising judgement to boot.

Not every talent needs to be super appealing for QP. I will be extremely surprised if coordinated teams can’t make great use of prayer of might. Even just as a personal buff it should easily let you hit meaningful breakpoints.

2 Likes
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