This jumping puzzle is silly. It feels like it needlessly requires timing the jump perfectly or you’ll never end up on the post. It is such that if I didn’t already know where the Grimoire was, I’d never consider that this was how you get it because it is setup in a way that would require unbelievable luck to discover that you can actually jump up onto the post in the first place.
Unless… I’m going about this all wrong… in which case, what is the correct solution?
I think in most of my games we usually end up all trying to make the jump, which is a little finicky. Once someone makes it though, it’s simply a matter of opening the door and sending one of the tankier classes to pick up the grim. I wouldn’t mind if the jump was made a little less finicky, though it’s not exactly a necessary immediately needed change from my point of view as most of the groups I’ve played with usually got it down pretty quickly.
After about 50 attempts, you get pretty good at it. I might miss 1-2 attempts on each time I try this map, but otherwise it’s a 10 second ordeal.
As far as discovering it goes…
Yeah. That’s how Grims go. The candles later in the map are much more of a nightmare to find for a team trying to establish that they are there. You also have Grims that, unless you are spending 5 hours searching for it on Recruit difficulty, no one would’ve ever found. We learned from people who Googled it and then knowledge propagated as more people learned/taught about it.
That specific Grim is among the easier to find; the classic “Slowly rising pieces of wood and a mound of dirt nearby” is a classic start to a jumping puzzle. The one on “Empire in Flames” is invisible when approaching, but the slowly rising box-platforms followed by the lamp-post was a dead giveaway.
If you have to try every suspected obstacle 50 times, how will you know when to stop and that you are wasting your time because this isn’t intended to be part of the puzzle?
All that has to happen is that they lift the mound of dirt slightly so that you don’t have to precisely jump from a specific point to a specific point precisely. It should be enough to recognize that you need to jump up onto the post, otherwise a player is likely to assume that the post isn’t intended to be accessible.
Well, I agree again, but that’s what those fellows who spent 5 hours on recruit saved us from. Many of us did pass it up, but they didn’t. The Grims are not meant to be recognized. They are really, really difficult to find unless you are looking for them.
You do have a point and I’m not saying they shouldn’t raise the mound. It’s rather that people jump everywhere they go… and on everything they can. If it’s in their way, they’ll climb it for fun. That specific grim is directly in the way of proceeding on that map.
Do we want a Grim that people find entirely on accident? Again, not saying we shouldn’t…
… but for those searching for it and who have grabbed it 20 times before, it only takes a moment to grab it again. All things in Vermintide are mastered by practice
The DOOR set into the wall of the swampy bit that eventually gets opened was the big clue for my group. Why is this door here? How do I open it? Attempting every rock in the mission is a bit daft, but looking for logic clue is helpful. Getting the second grim on the new Horn of Magnus is far more unintuitive in my opinion.
Actually I think the jumping puzzles are a bit out of sync with the rest of the gameplay. I think the grims should be earned by flicking a switch to open a door to a corridor. Along the corridor is a couple of patrols, some specials and a load of elites. Getting the grim should be really Earned by great skill and gameplay.
I too would prefer button push grims & tomes, like athel yenlui’s second grim or war camps candle one. I just don’t enjoy the jumping, but prefer more work over more jumping effort.
Alternatively grims could be attached to patrols. That gives the player a choice of obtaining it through team combat, or sneaking past. You’d probably have to beef up patrols or add a rat ogre to the current ones. That would make obtaining the grim dangerous, as well as making the second grim more difficult to obtain.
Might make sense lore/ immersion wise to have a grim carried by a powerful enemy.
Once again, I end up repeating something I’ve said before, but it was in an old thread about the same (well, jump-puzzle Grims in general) issue.
There’s an inherent problem with platforming in First Person perspective in games, and it’s the reason why I never finished Mirror’s Edge. In real life, what allows people to do parkour or other precise jumps and movements is that we have a lot more information available than just visual. We have our sense of balance and touch, and sometimes even hearing, working together with vision to give us a good sense of both our environment and body position. Through that we can achieve some pretty interesting and impressive tricks. In third person games, the lack of the senses of balance and touch can be partially compensated with additional visual information: We see our whole character and their immediate surroundings at once, and can relate those to each other. But in first person, we only have available similar visual information to real life, and often even less. While in real life we can still look down and see how our feet are positioned, we can’t do it here (yes, I know about the Full Body Awareness mod, but as it isn’t approved and not available to consoles, it’s irrelevant) and in addition (at least by default) our field of vision is smaller than in reality. So to achieve the precise jumps, we have far less information available than in other kinds of games or real life. This is made somewhat worse with controls that are not specifically built for precise jumping, but for something else completely.
Yes, the jumps are learnable. Yes, they can be done consistently. Some people may even like them (but I don’t remember anyone mentioning that at least). But for the most part, they end up being uninteresting time-wasters. Either you get them quickly, or you end up getting annoyed at failing. Actually, I don’t even like calling them puzzles, because while for some of them there may be a puzzle element for the first time you find them (“there’s the book, now how do I reach it?”), it’s minor and the precision jumping is a far bigger aspect of it - and one that you have to do again from the start if you fail. As others here, I find the hidden switches or unusual side paths more interesting, as at least those ones don’t feel like they stall the gameplay - and aren’t really in danger of failure and even more stalling.
As for the particular Grim discussed here: The first jump in particular requires such precision that the first few runs when we noticed the place (and suspected something about it, specifically because of the door below and how the place looked) we ended up giving up with the jumps, and at least I personally started to wonder whether our suspicions were right after all. The Grim isn’t visible until you manage the jumps, so it’s quite easy (if you’re finding out about things without outside help) to deem it impossible.
I’d find that even more uninteresting than the jumps. The problem is the same as with Okri’s quests: Fighting is something we do anyway, including Bosses and Patrols. Adding an additional reward to one of them (even a beefed-up one) doesn’t really change anything about our playing or require any special effort. Okay, maybe seven Chaos Warriors guarding an out-of-the-way door could be a sensible challenge for one book, but that wouldn’t be much different from making any other detour. Besides, the carrier enemy would need to be always in the same location (which would be boring, again) or be otherwise visually recognizable from the others of its kind (even if the changes were relatively subtle) to give us a real chance of finding the book in the first place - which feels a bit strange considering that otherwise the only visually distinct individuals are Lords.
It’s a tough one to learn, I agree - used to drive me bonkers. Once I got it, it suddenly became easy… and it does feel satisfying to execute it now. All the jump puzzley ones feel that way to some extent. It’s not something everyone needs to master - only one person in the party needs it if grims are a must.
Honestly I’ve liked how different the jump puzzles are from regular gameplay just because it shakes things up a bit. Switching gears makes it that much better when the fighting starts again!
as u can see the wood pillar or whatever is call, is more on the left side so when i do this jump i dont hold W and jump i use combination of jump, A, W, D or something like that idk LOL
i hate that jump to
In addition to all the other comments, I find that I can only perform particular jump consistently when I jump crouch (even as Bardin who doesnt really crouch). Every single other jumping “puzzle” can be done relatively consistently (with practice) without crouching.
As a dawi main, this grim has been the bane of my bearded existence.
If it’s alright, I’d like to poke and prod at some of the points you made. I don’t believe you are wrong in any sense, only that I think that the buttons/switches would suffer some of the same issues as the jumping puzzles (with the obvious subtraction of the first-person issue with platforming; I feel @InFro on a deep emotional level).
In summary, the jumping 'puzzles' are causing lots of folks heartache because:
They are difficult to manage in a first-person view
Some of them are so sensitive that it is easy for someone who doesn’t know them to deem them impossible
They might end up wasting lots of time, potentially endangering a run
They cease to be puzzles once someone understands how to get from A-B
Wouldn't switches cause some of the same problems?
If you don’t already know where a switch is and can’t immediately spot it while clearing a zone, I’d argue that it is equally as impossible as the jump in The Warcamp; until you know it works, it doesn’t work
If a switch is far out of your path, somewhat like the switch-system in Convocation of Decay, it takes a lot longer than a standard run. I totally agree that this one doesn’t feel like it stalls gameplay, but you are more in danger of failing because you must stand around for 1-2 minutes waiting for all the buttons
If a switch causes you to double-back, much like the switch on Into the Nest, you are going to consume at least a minute or more retrieving the grim unless your team splits up, but that’s a much higher likelihood of losing players
Once you know where a switch is it’s no longer a puzzle, it’s a slog until the task is complete. I was told where to find the candles in The Warcamp; now that I know, the mystery is gone
Fetching the first grim of The Warcamp is risk-free other than the delay; it is conveniently located and there are abilities (the shouts) which cleave into the grim-room to protect anyone inside. The only issue is the jumping.
Touching all 3 candles on the second grim of The Warcamp can be very fast… if you split up, which could end up in players dying unless you go slow and steady, which takes about as long as most of the jumping-grims. It’s vastly more dangerous to a run.
I totally see your points on why the ‘jumping-puzzle’ system might not be the best situation, but I also firmly believe that it has its place alongside the ‘switch-puzzle’ and the ‘hidden-puzzle’. They are all a little different, but I’d line them all up as equally uninteresting.
This is, of course, all IMO and I’d love to hear counterpoints
P.S.: Honestly, I’d rather have the jumps than running (even switches depending on the situation) if I’m fetching a grim… it means I get to do something other than walk 100 meters just to walk back 100 meters. During combat is a different story, but fetching the grims/tomes of Athel Yenlui is a drag.
I hate jumping puzzles in general but this one stands out because it lacks the most important thing a jumping puzzle can have: consistency. There is a very tiny window to get it right and no feedback as to what you’re doing wrong. You just jump and jump until it finally works. I wouldn’t mind if they made it longer if you didn’t have to be pixel perfect.
Another problem one is the first tome on Empire. All you have to do is jump up onto a flat ledge, so it’s not really a puzzle. But for no apparent reason I can barely make the jump, I see other players get it on the first try while I have to sit there humping the wall until it finally works on the 7th-10th try for no apparent reason. I’m told this particular jump is “framerate dependant” and apparently solid 60fps isn’t good enough.
It’s true that all the different versions of “fetch the Grim” have similar issues. The first candle in the War Camp’s second grim can be hard to target (though either it’s been made a little easier at some point or I’ve gotten better), which kind of corresponds to the problems with jumping, even. But I guess my biggest issues is the feel of stalling: Most jumping puzzles cause one player to go for the jumps, maybe two if people feel some redundancy is needed, and the rest are left standing around. Even if all the players are going to attempt them, they cannot do so together as they’ll mess up each other’s jumps. For switches, we need to move pretty much constantly, and using them is immediate so they can be done even in the middle of combat, so the same feeling of stalling isn’t really there. As I said, the jumping setups are also the only ones where there’s a real chance of failure, needing redoing the jumps.
I have some of the similar feeling of stalling (though not quite as bad) with the first Grim of Fort Brachsenbrücke. If horde timing has been nice and left some roaming enemies there it’s not that noticeable, but if there’s been a horde just before it, it just feels like a useless detour. It won’t take as long as some others, but running a small circle without facing anything feels… slightly stupid, I guess. As you said, the convocation’s fist Grim doesn’t feel as bad, even though it still takes time. I’d say this is due to three reasons: First, it’s still a part of a slight stall even in “normal” gameplay (as you need to wait for each switch, fight a little and possibly figure out their order), and so is rather a part of the rhythm of the game instead of breaking it. Second, there’s still something to do for the rest: opening the gates brings in enemies, and they need to be fought, but the amounts are not so big as to need everyone (and it’s done fast). And third, it doesn’t really take long, and the one who gets the Grim (who may or may not be the one to hit the Grim switch) isn’t significantly separated from the rest.
I’m quite fine with some added risk if people want to separate for some Grims. It’s just balancing between some more danger (to individuals and through that to the group) and comfort. You can do it fast and easy, with some added danger, or go the safe and slow way.
This one I agree with wholeheartedly, especially the first of each book. Getting them adds a huge delay, a lot of danger and is an annoying back-and-forth trek to boot. And one of them still involves additional jumping.
To make grim collection universally approved of then;
It needs to be as part of the run without needing to backtracks or stall while someone performs some action - push button, hop on something or wait for doors to open
and needs to be somehow more engaging than what we currently have.
Personally, I think the possibility of adding a powerful character who holds the grim to a patrol would be more of a risk/reward/run speed decision and is the best suggestion here in this thread.
Actually, I think this whole discussion we might be picking peanuts out of sh!t, as the delay for grims is fairly minimal. Demon Mosh Pit Under a Hospital™ has the most laborious combination of grim collection I think, and even that is merely a matter of two or three minutes added to a run per grim. I mean come on, have a word. Waiting for doors to open and blundering about for a bit going “Anyone got keys?” Isn’t really a massive hiccup in the whole proceedings. I get more annoyed a difficulty spike-wipes at the end of Convocation than I do for the grim collection.