Vet Keystones post Patch 15.2

[RTO]

@Shining_Darkness

Dodge doesn’t use stamina. I don’t even know what you are trying to say anymore.

It doesn’t, that’s why I say “stop”. It doesn’t “deplete” but it stop (or pause) stam regen

[Shining_Darkness]

Okay? Still don’t know what you are trying to say. You keep getting really caught up in saying a load of stuff about stamina but not a lot about the keystones. This is starting to seem off-topic.

[RTO]

To my understanding, you don’t put emphasis on stam regen start time the way I do.

@Shining_Darkness

Yes… and I don’t think it belongs in the WS at all. I think the stam nodes the vet has higher up on the tree are more than enough stam related nodes.

That’s why I think you think otherwise because I put huge emphasis on the the stem regen start time. It’s my understanding based on your comments but maybe I misunderstood.

[RTO]

@RTO

It doesn’t, that’s why I say “stop”. It doesn’t “deplete” but it stop (or pause) stam regen

This?

Splint & push = consume stamina
dodge doesn’t consume stamina (it consumes dodge count). But even tho it doesn’t consume stamina, it pause stam regeneration.

[Shining_Darkness]

Ah you misunderstand then. The stamina that exists outside the WS optional nodes are more than enough, at least for me.

I think I see what you are saying now. You want another stam regen delay instead of the stam refresh in WS, yeah?

If so I would agree that would be better than a burst of 20% stamina that will be gone nearly as fast as it comes. I think swapping one stamina optional node in WS for dodge distance and count and the other with stamina regen rate and delay would be good changes that don’t make WS more powerful but more meaningfully make it more survivable.

[RTO]

@Shining_Darkness

I think I see what you are saying now. You want another stam regen delay instead of the stam refresh in WS, yeah?

Yep, exactly! I don’t spec into keystone

[Shining_Darkness]

Very much so off-topic, but it is something I really want in the game is a stamina-related aura on whatever class comes out next whenever they get around to it. I have mentioned I really want loner to just be swapped out for a +1/s stamina regen or -0.25s regen delay aura, especially since most agree 2 coherency toughness regen is just not very good.

Off-topic, I know, but I wanted to make my position on the importance of stamina more clear. I run a +3 stamina on all but ogryn (his weapons have plenty of stamina).

[RTO]

@Shining_Darkness

really want loner to just be swapped out for a +1/s stamina regen or -0.25s regen delay aura

That be kinda crazy ngl considering Psykers can get it too. They will be a pushing machine. Wondering if they have melee weapons with amazing push-attacks. If so, it’d be crazy.

[Shining_Darkness]

Yeah, but considering their abysmal max stam I don’t think it would be too crazy. Not exactly something to build for, ya know? Just a nice thing to have. The stamina regen rate is more likely but a man can dream.

[RTO]

Wait until FS gives Kruber’s Sword & Mace to Psykers. That wep push-attack kills everything while defending everything.

[tfunknationtown]

Scrolling through the messages here and it seems a bit heated. My opinion is the vet talets are solid rn, if not one if the strongest trees.
The keystones are fine as well. I like them. I personally take weapon specialist for the melee attack speed. Its easy to keep 100% up time. One range killl every 10 seconds is doable.

Unpopular opinion, but there are more pressing issues in the games skill trees than the 4th vet rework lol.

[dragomusic]

@tfunknationtown

I personally take weapon specialist for the melee attack speed. Its easy to keep 100% up time. One range killl every 10 seconds is doable.

This is the thing I’m most confused about. Is it really that hard to pull out your gun and shoot something? Even just 1 groaner in front of you?

[Nish]

@dragomusic

This is the thing I’m most confused about.

You might have skipped a lot of discussions about this topic.

@dragomusic

Is it really that hard to pull out your gun and shoot something? Even just 1 groaner in front of you?

It’s not that it’s hard, it’s unnatural. Pulling your gun randomly just to gain a buff doesn’t feel good an usually is non-optimal.

---

Since even this post is very long, I collected some posts that will hopefully help clear the confusion you have.

@Nish

You just wrote down what feels bad about it. It feels unnatural. Swapping weapons to keep up the melee buff feels bad. You naturally swap when something needs shooting, and suddenly losing dodge/attack speed and dodge distance feels extremely jarring. This goes against the natural flow of switching weapons when the situation demands it.

@Nish

@Flawless

Well you do have a buff indicator that shows you how long it lasts.

Mental space.

Do you know what is similar? Keeping up FotF 20% attack speed boost on Zealot, it has a big payoff of a big kill/chunking horde, minimal cost, and doesn’t force you to switch off melee. It feels great to use! Suddenly slowing down gives the feeling of windedness and the ult is like a second wind.

You know what doesn’t feel good for me? Having to randomly drop AS and dodge speed if I don’t pull my revolver to shoot a damn poxie when the side I’m trying to hold a side of some wierd triple horde spawn in maelstrom when my team fights off a boss and the special wagon in the back. It totally breaks how I play.

When I play a damn melee Vet and rush the elite blobs before being alerted I want to slash them up and not randomly drop a bunch of AS and DS/DD if don’t randomly shoot something. Yes I can shoot the damn shotgunners, but if I’m playing a melee Vet I want to decide when to shoot and when to chop naturally and not by the pressure of keeping up some some damned buff.

@alsozara

I’m still not a huge fan of the keystones TBH. Weapon specialist is good on paper but it feels awkward when I just wanna be slashing things a lot. I really enjoyed power sword + Kant shotty pre keystones and I kinda feel forced into weapon specialist since it’s theoretically the biggest melee juicer I can get access to with my remaining talents but pulling out a shotty every 10 seconds to kill a trash mob or whatever is around to keep buffs up hasn’t stopped feeling kinda unnatural and disruptive to me. I’m sure I can adjust more to it but I don’t think there’ll be a point where it feels fun and enjoyable to use for me unless I tailor my weapons to its quirks. The +dodge range and speed in theory is great for power sword but that just makes it feel kinda bad when the effect drops off which happens frequently when I’m lost in just slashing dudes. Also find myself trying to not swap to melee while moving around the level so as to have the buff ready when I need it and that’s not exactly a problem but it’s just another thing that makes me feel like I’m fighting my instincts while using it.

@Nish

@Forsion

You can uptime it as much as possible, if you want, but you don’t have to.
You still getting benefits by playing naturally. And you are getting more,
if you willing to put some effort and do something out of ordinary.
That’s great formula in my book.

The problem with “willing to put some effort” is that it neither has a good enough payoff nor an enjoyable playstyle. As partial buffs they are lackluster, and with full commitment, they feel bad to play and are generally meh.

This design only works if either you can some incredible payoff or the playstyle is enjoyable.

With WS Is there anyone who thinks constantly swapping for melee buff is worth it or enjoyable? Is the Crit boost really worth it? We already have agile engagement. Are the other modifers worth picking at all apart from some meme tier build?

@Nish

@RTO

Moreover, if there are 5 shotgunners 10m away from me shooting at my ass, would I go find some poxwalkers to kill real quick to gain some stacks before I start shooting the gunners? Hell no!

I find this even more egregious when engaging with enemies not yet alerted. Getting the jump on them while they are still just on patrol is the way, but I would like to have the increased dodge for the fight. It runs basically counter to the instinct I learned from playing the game.

@Tzcheese

I think that all keystones (on all classes) are best engaged with passively; That activating and maintaining them shouldn’t be the focus of your gameplay. They should emphasise and empower your chosen playstyle as a byproduct of engaging in that playstyle.

I think the issue with both MF and WS is the sense that you need to play in ways you normally wouldn’t to get their full benefits, whether that means standing still on MF or actively managing when you switch weapons on WS, and that other classes largely don’t have this issue. Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant, in my opinion. The general perception is that you need to do these things in order to benefit from the keystones; That alone suggests that the activation and maintenance mechanics, at least, need attention.

@Nish

@alsozara

What other ideas do people have for the sub nodes?

I already kinda did my part about sub nodes, but to kinda TL:DR it:

Apart from Always Prepared they are so incredibly bad that I’d rather pick an operative node, I’d be hard-pressed to find even a handful of similarly useless Keystone modifiers anywhere else.

They aren’t totally unsalvageable, but I’d rather see them replaced with nodes that is actually boosting the base Keystone in a non-absolutely fringe way.

I know this is kinda harsh, but I don’t even know how such bad nodes made it into the tree at all. Cutting the bottom two (Fleeting Fire and Conditioning) would have been less of an embarrassment than having them there in their current state.

[Shining_Darkness]

@Reginald

Don’t be such an ass

Oh look, a person who can’t just drop things. I had dropped it the moment I was asked to. But here you are, bringing it up again.

[Nish]

@Shining_Darkness and @Reginald no need to start a second round of pvp here one was enough.

[Shining_Darkness]

Yeah, I know. Am I not allowed to defend myself?

[Nish]

I understand both of you in this case, and one reply is fine just tried to prevent a flamewar again before it starts rolling.

[Shining_Darkness]

Naw we good, We get each other.

[Reginald]

@Nish

It’s not that it’s hard, it’s unnatural. Pulling your gun randomly just to gain a buff doesn’t feel good an usually is non-optimal.

I disagree about both points. I think WS has fun and natural flow to it that is very compatible with quickdraw weapons though it does kinda annoy me to lose my buffs when i switch weapons betwee fights due to the trigger conditions being what they are. In a fight i dont really object to quick blasting something with my shotgun or whatever to keep my buffs going.

@RTO

And heavily favors non-automatic weapons

Ironically MFocus favors automatic weapons more than non-automatic.

@Tzcheese

I think that all keystones (on all classes) are best engaged with passively; That activating and maintaining them shouldn’t be the focus of your gameplay.

I just don’t agree with this assessment. Martyrdom is hardly a passive and requires a lot of active health management throughout the game. Hitting the sweet spot and staying there is pretty key. Its maybe not as involved as WSpecialist or as finicky as MFocus but its no less complex than say Focus Target.

[Reginald]

I see i may have missed the resolution. I’ll leave well enough alone then.