Yeah, that’s largely it. Playing a lot of Zealot and Plasma when it was absolutely not viable to use it on simple shooters, made me gravitate towards builds that reward risk-taking on melee builds, and heavily favor taking out ranged enemies in melee (while keeping teammates and overall efficiency in mind). Playing a lot this way helped me get good at doing it.
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I think there’s a difference between being oppositional and inflammatory. I haven’t read your full exchange but if I see anything comparably unhelpful from them I’ll be sure to call it out too 
Back to the actual thread now.
(Side note VT2 has broken my brain and I can’t help but read “WS” as Waystalker whenever I see it)
I agree with this sentiment. Doesn’t need anything major, there are multiple good suggestions in this thread. Just a duration increase would probably be enough for the core node honestly though that’s probably the least interesting solution. Some of the sub nodes I’m really not sure what to do about them but let’s try I guess.
Always prepared is probably fine. It has good uses even if there are only a handful of guns that REALLY feel it helping them out. Maybe at least have it round up so you can get 2 revolver bullets and 3 Kant shotty bullets reloaded out of max stacks? That’d be nice.
Fleeting fire should at least be stored to the next reload IMO. I’m not sure what situation I’d take it in currently when I already have to go through always prepared to get to it.
On your toes is also kinda fine? It would be nice if it was a bit more gradual and natural? Struggling to think of a good way to implement that though.
Invigorated is a pretty funny meme for sustaining stamina with deadshot but I’d probably rather see it replaced entirely. Maybe +20% stam regen speed while either melee/ranged specialist is active? Still dunno if I’d take that but It’d be more consistently useful
Conditioning seems like a meme but would unironically be decent if it applies to deadshot drain and lasted longer than 3 seconds. I dunno how I feel about cramming in deadshot synergises on the opposite side of the tree to where deadshot is though.
What other ideas do people have for the sub nodes?
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To be honest, it is very difficult for me to really suggest what should be done. I agree people offered a lot of interesting input here.
In my case:
On one hand, I believe vet is so damn strong, so improving the keystones would make the class broken.
On the other hand, I feel like it makes more sense to spec into a keystone but I’ll only do that if they improve them.
That is my biggest gripe with the stamina options for WS. Like, yeah they are good but deadshot is way out of the way for that and the WS ranged doesn’t last long enough to really make good use out of deadshot anyway, you get a couple shots of single-shot weapons or a few bursts out of full auto weapons, you can do that with deadshot already.
The stam on dodge is all I’ve ever needed to maintain deadshot in the middle of the action when shots are going everywhere and the game just counts my frantic dodging as dodging shots that were probably not even aimed at me.
Yeah that is my problem too, I know they need to change but I don’t know what to. Something that increases the duration of the activation, certainly. That is my single biggest gripe with it, the uptime is too small.
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I mean, WH tag is way stronger. Everybody loves WH on a team. Salt doesn’t have to tag enemies himself for it to apply. Anybody can tag. The whole team can tag 4 at a time. It’s amazing.
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I already kinda did my part about sub nodes, but to kinda TL:DR it:
Apart from Always Prepared they are so incredibly bad that I’d rather pick an operative node, I’d be hard-pressed to find even a handful of similarly useless Keystone modifiers anywhere else.
They aren’t totally unsalvageable, but I’d rather see them replaced with nodes that is actually boosting the base Keystone in a non-absolutely fringe way.
I know this is kinda harsh, but I don’t even know how such bad nodes made it into the tree at all. Cutting the bottom two (Fleeting Fire and Conditioning) would have been less of an embarrassment than having them there in their current state.
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I’m not sure if you’re gonna like it but try 0.5 sec stamina delay (0.25+0.25). It starts regen as fast as Psyker.
True enough. As many have said in various places, a lot of people don’t even use the keystones. My “core” build doesn’t even use them, I’ll redistribute a few points to pick up them but honestly spamming VoC with a melee vet using the center and right orange talents, whatever grenade I want, whatever aura I want (usually survivalist, it is far too good for the team to not take IMO), and the cd reduction talent.
The vet is good, like I said before I think the biggest misstep was releasing the talent system without the vet keystones in place.
also, no cooldown or buildup restrains, just flatout 20% everytime.
not as much as the highest potential but that only really matters on boss enemies, and woe upon you if you don’t have it stacked when one apears.
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I agree double stam regen delay nodes are very good and I already do use that on my laspistol build that uses ghost + deadshot + duck n dive + left keystone. That’s kind my problem. If I want deadshot synergy I don’t see myself having the points to spare to go down to weapon specialist sub nodes.
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Naw, I really don’t think stamina is right to go in WS in the first place, you know? Like it just doesn’t belong there. Maybe dodge distance or dodge count? Like the psyker gets. (Anticipation I think it’s called)
I felt like you struck gold on weapon equip time reduction.
Every other thought in my head is just derivatives of stuff Zealot and Ogryn have.
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Agreed.
It would make more weapons viable to use with it instead of just the snappy ones. That said the bolter in particular, while it may benefit from it and is the one that most comes to mind, just needs to be faster to ready in general.
I don’t run keystones to begin with 
. It’s not max stam, it’s the time your stam starts regen after you stop using actions that deplete stamina.
Put it in perspective, with 0.5 stam regen, you don’t lose a single stamina if you sprint and slide. The slide duration is enough to regen around 4 stamina and you “can” only spend about 4 stam to sprint before you hit slide again. What it means is that, you can gap close the enemies with speed and still have a lot of stamina left to stagger them.
This also applies to your attack patterns. We combine heavy attacks, light attacks, push, and push attacks in our combo depending on the situation. Having fast regen time means you can push way more often, giving you more control over horde, elites, and even Maulers (they can be stopped easily with push).
Yes… and I don’t think it belongs in the WS at all. I think the stam nodes the vet has higher up on the tree are more than enough stam related nodes. Other classes like zealot and ogryn that don’t get stam regen delay nodes do just fine. WS should be about using weapons, weaving in and out of melee. That is clearly the intent. To do that I think dodge count and distance are far more appropriate.
That’s because vet has the lowest stam regen time of all 4 classes. Psyker is the fastest. That’s why they put the nodes there for vet. Personally, I feel it’s very critical for me as it makes my melee game much stronger.
That was once true, not so much any more. Vet has the same regen delay as ogryn now. With the stam nodes vet can get the same regen delay as zealot OR BETTER (i.e psyker), though zealot does still regen faster when it kicks in. This is why the vet, the character that should theoretically be a range-focused class can melee just as good and in some cases way better than the zealot. (or at least at one point vet being ranged-focused was the intent, certainly not now which is a good thing, melee vet is fun)
Ogryn and vet have 1s regen delay base, zealot has 0.75s, and psyker has 0.5s. All but zealot have 1/s regen, zealot has 1.5/s. Ogryn and zealot have 0.75x sprint cost, vet and psyker have 0.5x.
So no, Zealot regens the fastest but psyker starts to regen the fastest. Psyker has better stamina management because it has 1 base stamina so that all balances out. The vet, when taking all the stamina nodes, is as good or better than the zealot. This is why I don’t think WS needs to have any stamina in it.
But yes, vet with even the one -0.25 stamina regen delay feels great.
Stole it off someone else lol but yeah it stood out to me too even if only for hellbore and bolter.
What do you mean stam node? The 0.25 regen time? Then you’re referring to the same thing.
That situation doesn’t matter (at least to me). You can regen the fastest from 0 to 100 when you don’t have to use any actions that deplete (push, splint) or stop (dodge) stam regen. A safe situation like that even 2s start time wouldn’t have a problem. During fight is what matters most when you constantly having to dodge, push, and run to close gap to specials/gunners etc. That’s why I highly prioritize start time over it. But it’s fair if you think otherwise.
Dodge doesn’t use stamina. I don’t even know what you are trying to say anymore.
When have I said that, why do you think I think that?