I dunno, It could be interesting to see what it’s like with little to no THP generation on CWs & bosses.
Regrowth could have that niche albeit headshot dependent.
There’s other routes like toning down THP generation in favour of green HP.
Increasing the time it takes for THP decay to kick in or make it so attacking halts THP decay.
I think the removal of cleave THP opens up these kind of doors.
Replacing tHP on cleave with crit/headshot is controversial, for sure. In my mind, cleave has always been the standard, reliable, good for everything option, that works in basically all situations. Crit/headshot has always felt the odd one out for me, and it has sucked for ages. I also don’t think that on headshot is necessary for any weapon type. Kill, cleave & stagger are the 3 pillars that work for every weapon. On headshot is more of a luxurious playstyle talent, rather than a necessity.
Greatsword is probably the weapon that is most impacted by this. Vanguard probably keeps it just fine against hordes, and Bloodlust with Mercenary keeps it decent against mauler and berserker blobs, but removing Reaper kind of guts its tHP generation against Stormvermin and Chaotic Warriors. Reaper generated you good tHP in any situation, and while certainly a big strength of the Greatsword, it doesn’t compare to stagger on official realm still. And this is speaking just about the Greatsword, no doubt there’s other weapons like Dual Swords that are greatly affected by this as well.
I also don’t think that Fatshark would be willing to accept this mod if Reaper is removed. It’s a staple for too many weapons, and players are too used to it. It would feel weird to not have it. And I will absolutely never accept a row with 4 talents in it, it’s just far too unsightly and alien.
My proposal is to merge headshots with tHP on kill. So something like “Headshots grant x tHP, killing enemies also grants x tHP.” Remove the crit component, cause it’s unnecessary and favours certain careers more. Most weapons that would normally take Bloodlust are also weapons that are good to get headshots with, and assuming the numbers are balanced, I think this would be good. If Velsix and his ilk are incapable of parting ways with on headshot, then the only reasonable course of action is to permanently ban him from the game and forums.
I think that would be grossly overpowered with heavy spam weapons, since you’d always be getting the max tHP you’d normally get from cleave, but only from one target. Insane sustain from monsters, banner bearers, singular elites. It’s cleave on steroids. It’s not hard to hit headshots with something like Greatsword at all. I just can’t agree with this.
It’s why I proposed nerfing the first hit to only give 0.5 or 0.75 tHP, to focus it more on actually cleaving more enemies, rather than just being a sort of “on hit” talent.
Specific numbers can be adjusted to anything.
Edit: Hey did you see the MWP thread reply I gave? I’m not sure if you missed it or not.
Not really a big fan of the change this time. I have never particularly liked crit/headshot and even with buffs I just don’t think its consistent enough. As was already suggested, if the emphasis was more in the headshotting department it might feel better to play with and probably worth testing out.
However if the talent can’t be made usable with small changes / number tweaks then I think @Rebel merging option is also worth exploring. Even if just for testing purposes.
Yeah ok, so again, that’s just a big nerf greatsword doesn’t need.
Hard pass.
Edit: Sorry this came across more rude than I meant. I just feel like these suggestions are getting increasingly convoluted for a balance mod thats stated goal is to streamline the row 5 and 15 talents and establish a new baseline that doesn’t overly favour or hinder different weapon/class combos. I don’t think radical changes to the system is the way to go about that. Before cleave was swapped out for HS/Crit as far as I could see the mod was pretty close to achieving its goal, the main negative anyone could seem to pose is the talents being a bit homogeneous and interchangeable. Don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and definitely don’t want a nerf to weapon/class combos that in no way deserve them.
Fatshark keys your car
@alsozara Hmm I suppose.
I’ve always thought cleave was too good and generally the top pick.
Generating THP off anything, even bosses & CWs only fortified that.
0 voters
Ok gonna pop a poll in here just to get some numbers. Please note any changes we make are for testing and won’t necessarily be in the finished mod :^)
Edit: closing the poll, we’ll have something new once we get it all sorted out; should be an overall better solution
I think my fix for FS stuff was actually fixing problems I made… whoops…
EDIT: Will investigate best way to make it work as intented…
Have you messed with THP decay yet?
Halting THP decay during combat / via melee hits would help all 3 options.
Bringing all 3 a little closer to cleave thp without the on hit generation.
EDIT: I’m suggesting this because I just tried Greatsword Merc with Regrowth and it felt fine against packs of Chaos Warriors; retaining THP helps Greatsword a lot.
Do you guys want any more play-testers? AKA, is there some way I can help out?
just playing the mod and providing feedback is more than enough 
As much as i do feel headshot THP sounds like a good idea i am not all too sure all careers can make use of that too well.
Elf and saltz can in general but the others…hm-
…
Would it be a bad idea to add a small amount of THP per hit to the headshot option even when bodyshotting? If that doesnt work i figure it´s probably necessary to keep both for they both have a place.
we’re looking at alternative solutions rn, will update when we settle (hopefully it’ll be the happiest middle ground)
edit: might take a day or two for us to iron it all out so bear with us :^)
I always thought it was only too good in the context of quick weapons whose identity isn’t particularly linked to cleave. I have no issue with it being nerfed in some way, I just think cleave/stagger/kill covers the identity of all weapons better than swapping cleave out for head shots. It’s not that I don’t also think head shots suit the identity of some weapons, it just seems a tad more redundant.
As I said before it’s tough and ideally I wish all 4 could exist. The other options might work passably for a weapon like GS, but none of them really match its identity in the way cleave does. Same probably goes for dual swords, and possibly a few others that don’t currently come to mind. I just think cleave covers more bases, and again I’m in no way against it copping a nerf. Generating thp on bosses hardly seems an issue for slow, high cleave weapons. It’s only problematic when you’re spamming a quick 1h weapon. I don’t really want to see GS nerfed for the sins of other weapons.
Hey take as long as you need. This stuff wouldn’t be going anywhere at all without your free labour 
Ok so to not be so nebulous/vague about it but also still vague because details are still in infancy and such
we might have a way to do this where no weapons are getting unfairly stifled we just need to test it internally.
Let’s take it one step further. On kill is redundant for anything but the 1h Axe. Stagger is redundant for anything but the 2H Hammer. On cleave works with pretty much everything else. If headshotting isn’t part of a weapon’s “identity” than cleaving isn’t either, nor is staggering or killing. Almost every weapon wants to cleave, to kill, to stagger and to headshot. Very little of it is unique to very few weapons.
remember lads the idea here is to not have your weapon choice be dictated by THP generation and instead by your playstyle and build preferences
Ok sure, but are you really gonna tell me headshotting is as integral to the playstyle of greatsword as it is to rapier? I don’t buy that. One achieves a large portion of its damage and breakpoints through headshots, the other mostly spams slow diagonal sweeps that gets most of its damage from density. I agree the categories are messy but I don’t see how the focus is the same for every weapon.
I think this is a misunderstanding. I’m saying “identity” isn’t important.
This is.
You still want to headshot with Greatsword. You still want to kill with it, to stagger with it.