THP & Stagger talent rebalance

Small Update:
-Replaced Reaper (thp on cleave) with Regrowth (thp on crit/hs)
-When using Regrowth, critical hits and headshots give you 2.5 thp, critical headshots give you 5 thp

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I think you meant cleave right?

whoops will correct

While I’ve got you, Vanguard is meant to still give temp health when you kill enemies right? Just noticed in a run that when one shotting skaven slaves I seemed to get no thp.

I’m not feeling too good about the removal of cleave THP to be honest. I get the idea behind it, and this might seem a bit quick of me to say, but there were a few specific cases I was worried about so have been spamming runs with the mod since the update to put it to the test.

Case 1: BH with falchion. As far as I can tell the only change to headshot/crit temp health compared to live is a 25% increase in the numbers. I remember the live version feeling pretty bad with falchion, but to my very pleasant surprise it works well. Don’t know if I’ve misunderstood what you’ve changed about it or if I’ve just gotten better at head shotting with falchion. It even worked surprising well with on stagger, apart from what I mentioned above regarding getting no THP from 1 shotting slave rats. On kill was passable but probably the worst of the three, which is fair for a ranged career. To my surprise and relief this case didn’t turn out to be an issue.

Case 2: Greatsword, I was testing on FK but I imagine it’s pretty similar for everyone. This is kind of the deal breaker for me. While Vanguard and Bloodlust are good enough replacement when fighting hordes, fighting high armour density feels much much worse. I know cleave THP is a bit cheesy overall, though that’s mostly how weirdly good it is with low cleave weapons, but for GS, the king of cleave, it felt like a reasonable synergy, and was a nice and fair seeming upside of the weapon that its cleave and armour sliding allowed good THP gains even against a group of CWs. I wouldn’t go so far as to say it ruins Greatsword for me, but none of the current options feel right or synergistic for the weapon. It feels like an unnecessary nerf. Gonna ping our local GS lover @Rebel to get his take on the situation. Maybe I haven’t given the current options enough of a go with it but it just don’t feel good to me.

Just a quick bit of context, I was running boon in all these runs to give the talents the best chance I could.

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From my testing FK with Greatsword is specifically impacted more by it then someone like Merc with Greatsword, as the latter works well enough with kill thp (though it’s still better with cleave thp). However, I wonder if it’s possible to just have all thp talents on the row for each career, or if there’s a hard limit on the number of slots in a row. I know it would be somewhat ugly to have 4 at the top, but it would keep everyone happy.

Also, Slayer with crit/headshot thp (Regrowth) + Dual Axes felt good.

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I agree with this sentiment though some further work may need to be done with Reaper to make it a little less strong on low cleave weapons. I’m not sure if the buff to Regrowth is enough to make it appealing over Reaper in a large number of cases. If such adjustments were made though I can see every weapon niche being covered very well. You have:

  • Reaper for higher cleave weapons with moderate to low elite killing power, and people who aren’t confident in their headshot ratio
  • Vanguard for stagger oriented weapons
  • Regrowth for lower cleave finesse weapons, especially for ranged careers that can’t get the elite killing potential out of such weapons that melee classes can
  • Bloodlust for low cleave elite killing weapons

It would look a bit ugly in the talent tree but that seems relatively minor, assuming it’s not too hard to implement.

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Ok so the situation we have is

  1. people dislike how cleave feels very samey/redundant in a lot of cases compared to kill and stagger
  2. crit/headshot creates an unfortunate situation similar to official realm assassin where it’s very skewed in favour of crit heavy careers

Our options are either reverting to cleave or switching crit/headshot to be headshot only just as we did with assassin and adjusting numbers accordingly to keep it feeling from anemic (I’m thinking maybe 3 thp per headshot; can only proc once per swing)

@alsozara @Velsix thoughts?

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Personally I like my idea of:
Melee light attack headshots restore 3 temporary health. Melee charged attack headshots restore 5 temporary health.

The 5 could be made 4 if it’s too much. End result is a versatile thp talent that requires headshots. No crit interaction. Still limited to one proc per swing. No longer requires light spam for effective thp generation.

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Could just bump up the headshot portion of THP and lower the crit portion.
e.g 3thp on headshots, 1thp on crits, stacking to 4 like it currently does.

I don’t mind a little crit synergy, but majority of the recovery should come from headshots to make it worthwhile on any career.

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That’d be something to experiment with but I reckon that might have unintended consequences of people either opting entirely into heavies and feeling suboptimal if they don’t OR the differential won’t be large enough to matter either way. It’d vary a lot by weapon choice, like on rapier, dual daggers, executioner I could see why you’d mix up your attacks but on something like GS, Flail, mace & sword, spear you’re probs gonna just opt entirely into heavy spam depending on the thp gen. Though maybe I’m overthinking it; will defo look into it

Crit synergies ideally should come from actual class talents rather than universal/systemic talents imo to prevent any of it feeling arbitrary

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Spear would probably still have optimal thp generation with lights with those values, it would just be less punishing to thp generation to use a charged attack. The others already are heavy spam weapons because they have bad light attacks (Greatsword, Flail and Mace & Sword) regardless of thp talent (the exception is Merc with max cleave and light attacks with thp on cleave vs low density, heavies for everyone else that can use it). I think those weapons need their lights to be looked at.

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yeee that’s true

Oh then just plain old simple headshot THP would be preferable.

Just from testing weapon to weapon, stagger THP feels better with faster light stagger weapons compared to the likes of Great Sword. (At least against hordes)

Dunno if you guys changed anything but I’m no longer generating stagger THP on killing blows
Also can’t generate THP on already floored/staggered enemies.

These two things hurt stagger THP with weapons like Greatsword/Greathammer, which is some dumb anti-synergy if you ask me.


Adding a small amount of killing blow THP regardless if the attack would have staggered could make Vanguard usable with a larger pool of weapons & work better against already staggered enemies. (Rather than stagger THP on killing blows)

Note: Might cause a tiny bit of overlap with Killing Blow THP, but even 0.5 could be enough.

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oop that’d be unintended if so

Honestly I’m really torn. On the one hand I really like headshot/crit, as I said before even for a 15% max crit chance career like BH I found it effective and enjoyable with falchion, though I can see how it could get rather strong with higher crit chance or guaranteed crits ie WHC and Shade.

Putting all the THP into headshots seems a touch dangerous. A weapon like rapier could end up with very strong thp generation, and having the occasional crit to stop decay in a headshot dry spell makes the talent a bit more forgiving, albeit very hard to balance around crit careers.

On the other hand cleave is more universal and less likely to hurt weapons like GS, which really doesn’t deserve to have one of its niches de facto nerfed.

If you held a gun to my head and made me pick I’d probably say bring back cleave and tune it so it works like currently for high cleave weapons, but gives less for lower cleave weapons. I don’t know though, I can’t think of a neat solution at the moment. However I would say somewhat homogenised talents is preferable to potentially leaving some class/weapon combos out in the cold.

See my post to Random Words further up. Can confirm I at least wasn’t getting temp health with vanguard when one shotting Slaven slaves. Didn’t catch if it was like that for all enemies.

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With this mod Bulwark gives 10% power buff to the player on causing stagger instead of modifying damage taken. That doesn’t seem right.

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I think it’s possible to make stagger more universal.

Maybe even possible to make THP talents more like flavours rather than “Pick this for x weapon”
e.g adding the tiniest amount of killing blow THP to both Vanguard and Regrowth would make both usable with more weapons & prevent any dry spells against staggered enemies…
Or when you go full ape mode and miss every headshot with Regrowth.

What happens if you apply every thp talent together at 25% effectiveness?

I’d be curious how you’d go about this in a way that didn’t still make fighting a group of CWs with GS feel awful. You ain’t staggering those guys, and headshot/crit ain’t gonna fill that gap either without it being overtuned on other weapons.

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