The cost of green/blues and beginning of Chaos Waste runs

The beginning of runs in particular for Cataclysm are a bear because you’re starting underpowered with 450 instead of 600 power and also no properties or traits on gear. As a player, I feel greatly incentivized to hold onto my coins instead of buying green/blue shrines because they don’t offer enough for their cost. Orange/red shrines at least offer traits and 600/700 power respectively for what you pay, which is typically more valuable than properties that can roll low, random, and be almost useless anyways.

80 coins for green upgrades is pushing it a bit for 50 power, so maybe 60 would be better? For blues, 160 is a lot of coins for not a whole lot to upgrade. I wouldn’t bother with paying any more than 120 (if that). It’s also important to consider that you don’t even get 50 power total. You get 25 because your power is split between your two weapons. So just to get 50 power, you’d have to pay 160 for a green melee and ranged weapon.

Honestly, the way I expected upgrades to work is to have reduced cost for each upgrade, similar to an investment. So if you pay 80 (or 40 for a random) coins to get a green, it would only cost 40/80 coins to get a blue because 40/80 respectively would be taken off the top. And half that maybe if you wanted to reroll the same tier weapon. That way it’s like “Oh cool, I can invest in this early and it’s okay because it makes later investments cheaper.” rather than “Oh I never want to buy a green/blue because they’re so expensive and boons are generally a more reliable/powerful investment for the cost until I hit orange/reds.”.


I feel a change like this would be healthy because players would be more prone to spending coins on upgrades, be a little stronger for it, and it may help curve some of that frustration players can get at the start of runs when they’re still pretty vanilla. This is most strongly felt on Cataclysm because of the power/property disparity between Adventure runs and Chaos Waste runs.

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Any particular thoughts between the costs of weapon exchanges and upgrade shrines?

I’m two minds about it. Weapon exchanges encourage the rogue-like experience at the risk of weapons that don’t work with your build, but they’re kind of expensive. Upgrades are very expensive, with red upgrade shrines costing, I think, 320 coins? I want to say it should be more expensive to cut out the rng like that, but properties and traits are also rng and that leads to weapons with hilariously bad traits like getting moonfire bows with +2 stamina and Scrounger.

Right now it feels like the true path to victory is to start with weapons and talents that are good regardless of power level, visit the Shrine of Strife to take the power upgrade, and pump every coin into boons to get a stacked build until maybe a red shrine appears.

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Don’t swap anything and just spend on anvil upgrades. Blue, green and orange shrines are too much risk for slim reward.

In fact sticking with your starting choice at least makes sure you get the temp health talent you’ve chosen and you can stick with a kind of build to aim for. Start with shield? You know you’re aiming for bcr and stamina shields etc. The rng rogue like thing is a bit of an red herring - the shrines are more often a pain than a help so don’t even spend any money on them. Boons, shrines and anvil upgrades are all you need.

You forget that you can get pilgrims coins property and that will boost you quite high with 40/80 coins cost. Cata dont feel like cata at all even when you have shitluck with rng it need to be boosted in term of enemies

Green/blues anvils are just too much of an hit or miss right now. IF you roll decent pilgrim coin value it will pay itself back fairly quickly but if you don’t you pretty much just wasted 1-2 talent worth of coins for basically nothing.

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i get the idea with encouraging a rogue-like experience with the exchanges, but honestly even in games that are legitimately just roguelikes/lites they’d be poorly designed. they’re way too much risk for no real reward most of the time, I’d never take them in BoI or Hades or something.

Speaking of Hades actually, even though its weapon balance is generally alright, there’s a reason you’re locked into them once you start a run. Once you’re building around certain abilities and tools you have available,there’s really no way you’re ever going to want to swap off that, even if the replacement is marginally higher base damage per attack.

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idk ive played a few rounds that remind me of deed modifiers literally infinite spawns, finishing a run with everyone at > 100 special kills, bonkers

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The experience varies a lot depending on who you are playing with. Having friends at your side can make it a cake-walk from start to finish, but with randoms it can be literally death and sometimes turns into true solo attempt from the very first map. Except it’s an attempt at 450 gear power and no properties/traits or 200% monster damage. I think that overall the balancing is pretty decent with a slower start and more intense ending. I wouldn’t want this to be an hour-long Onslaught session.

Going back on-topic, I fully agree with OenKrad. Right now I simply hold on to my coins and my umgak gear until the 4th map, where I go hunting for red anvils. I only spend money on shrines if there’s cool stuff on offer or dump any excess beyond the weapons’ upgrade price for random boons.

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I also added this to the OP “It’s also important to consider that you don’t even get 50 power total. You get 25 because your power is split between your two weapons. So just to get 50 power, you’d have to pay 160 for a green melee and ranged weapon.”

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Maybe if the cost to upgrade wasn’t reduced by 100% of what you’ve already spent (maybe 75%) it would allow some choice instead of be the same as the current “skip all green/blue upgrades” except the opposite where you buy all upgrades. This way you can gauge how well you can handle the current level and how much you value your supply of coins.

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I suggested this in another thread, but it didn’t get any traction, so I’ll suggest it here as well.

Challenge chests (the ones that spawn a boss) should allow players to pick a large sum of pilgrim’s coins (200 + 50 per level of difficulty) if none of the traits and abilities are desirable and you’d rather upgrade your gear at the next temper.

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Pretty much what OP said. Unless they change the thp system, rerolling melee is too big a risk. Considering the cost of orange upgrades and their proximity to red ones those are the ones I really avoid. I usually go white to blue and blue to red.
I think +50 (net each) and two random properties for 160 coins is comparable to a random boon, and it costs a bit less, so I generally find it worth it. Plus you get it mid-run so it helps a bit.

This is open for discussion: it has some crazy spikes (especially with extra specials in a cursed map) that basically require the miracle of ranald to bomb everything or likely wipe. This is fun a couple of times maybe. If they changed that, having more enemies on average would be OK. Still, keep in mind that an expedition is very long, and losing it after 50+ minutes due to bad luck or overtuned stuff is not fun.
Plus, have you tried playing this mode with randoms?

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Yes I played it with both randoms and friends, and really most of time cata is cakewalk, only spike is near end but that spike is kinda pointless because at that point you delete everything, or atleast one character have some kind of bs combo that will delete everything.
Crits on self damage trivalisie it for pyro with ult refund on crit. Mordin bomb ranger dupe/talent for duping random held item. Chainlighting on any crit character or if you have whc in group. There is way more than that but its one of most obvious things that literally make gg you won

You’ve clearly found better randoms than I did: getting to the last map is a luxury in my pug experience. I’ve also had more than a run where everything goes smoothly, the last random joins, makes a silly decision based on overconfidence, kills the run for everybody, then leaves, all in less than 5 minutes.
It’s true that towards the end you’re godly with the right combos, mind.

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I agree. On my experience literally nobody took green/blue upgrades on day two of the update. Everyone just skipped them because they didn’t seem to be worth enough.

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I think this is the best way to go.
In the vast majority of games (read: either videogames or tabletop ones) I know , you pay less to increase from levels if you have invested in the previous ones.

So far, the cost to jump from White to Red is the same to jump from either Green or Blue or Orange and that makes totally no sense.

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You might get +% pilgrim coins on green and blue loot, making them quite worth on the long run

Question: someone told me the party wide power buff from the shrine of strife only applies to current weapons and is lost the moment you switch for an upgrade or exchange. Is that true?

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It even reads on the shrines buff “current” weapon.

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