Chaos Wastes: General Stuff

General Feedback

The Chaos Wastes itself suffers from a lot of smaller issues that cumulatively add up to an experience that can be good, bad, or ugly, yet fun.

Players just don’t seem to play Chaos Wastes much despite major update 4.7. After the gloss and sheen of some new stuff wore off, you’re still left with most of the same issues.

Cumulative advantage/disadvantage is the name of the game, but it doesn’t really contribute much to the enjoyment of the game when you get railroaded or put into situations where most of the options are not well suited to what the player’s career or weapon is.

Weapon Traits

Many weapon traits from the Campaign mode are mediocre and they need a rework of their own. For melee, there are only two that make a significant difference: Swift Slaying and Opportunist.

Suggestion 1:
Add Campaign weapon traits to the Green/Blue weapons and always give a new Chaos Wastes powerful trait upon upgrading to Orange/Red.

Soldier, Hunter, and Warrior Altars

Feedback 1:
Taking a random weapon carries more risk than it should for certain careers. It can potentially void certain talents, and that aside, it still hurts certain careers much more than others.

Suggestion 1:
Random weapon swaps should not pick weapons that don’t work with the player’s talents.
In another thread, I have also suggested many reworks of certain talents that when/if they are granted as boons to avoid conflicts.

Feedback 2:
Tempers do not allow you to temper a weapon of the same or higher quality. This makes it so you have to use a random weapon swap if you want different weapon properties and a different trait.

Allow a temper of the same quality to reroll the properties and the stats of the equipped weapon.

Feedback 3:
The cumulative cost of upgrading is particularly hard on players that utilize both weapons a lot. Those like GK/Slayer that can get by with just one upgraded weapon have an advantage.

Suggestion 3:
Lower the cost of upgrading/swapping secondary weapons or vice-versa for ranged careers.


I rarely, if ever, use the shrines to get boons since it’s less expensive to buy two random boons, and chances are that all 4 boons rolled by the shrines will be something not quite worth the coin. I only buy boons that are extremely good when I know I’ll still have enough coin to upgrade one of my weapons to the Veteran tier.

Suggestion 1:
Give a bit larger selection of boons to players at shrines and do not randomize the quality of boons; this only incentivizes using Seer’s Altars instead because you don’t know if you’ll have a good selection. I recommend having 4 Rare boons, 2 Exotic, and 1 Veteran every time.

Suggestion 2:
Give shrines some more diversity. I’d like to see some more different kinds of miracles, and different kinds of shrines.

Suggestion 3:
Include the option to Swap/Upgrade your weapon at shrines. It’s very easy to miss one upgrade, especially close to the end, and it can greatly affect your hero power. Having the shrine gives players an opportunity to upgrade weapons or reroll their stats; this in turn gives the player more options as to how they can use their coin effectively and makes shrines more valuable.


Shrine of Strife:

Miracle of Morgrim
“Grants Morgrim’s Bomb(Bomb Item, One Use Only). A powerful explosive with a long delay.”

*Feedback 1: *
We know on its own, it’s a nice little perk, but even with higher base damage, it doesn’t do much damage on Cataclysm, and depending on the grudge mark, it might almost do nothing. It’s really the Ranger Veteran’s “Parting Gift” talent and the “Kalita’s Barter” boon that makes this special, and when a player can reuse this bomb, it is quite possibly, the most powerful tool in your arsenal.

*Suggestion: *
“Kalita’s Barter” does have somewhat long cooldowns for Morgim’s Bomb and the Jade Censer (180 seconds), but the Ranger Veteran can get a very short fuse on his ability cooldown in the Chaos Wastes, and you might have more than one player with “Kalita’s Barter”. It simply shouldn’t be that easy to duplicate this special item, but it also should be stronger so that it still has more value, even if when nobody can duplicate it. I don’t think the Rampart Grudge Mark modifier should resist its damage, and it should be much more powerful. Make “Ranger’s Parting Gift” talent have a cooldown when Morgrim’s Bomb is equipped; one that is the same as “Kalita’s Barter”. Also, make “Kalita’s Barter” about twice the cooldown with twice the damage and explosion radius for Morgrim’s Bomb.

*Feedback 2: *
The visual effect is lackluster. This bomb deserves something more robust, but also not blinding for players.

*Suggestion: *
I was thinking a better visual effect might be something that actually allows the player to see the literal area of effect, something similar to the effect when the portal is opened for beginning a mission; an expanding fiery bubble with some transparency.

Miracle of Ulric
“Permanently increase your current weapons’ Power by 50.”

*Feedback: *
I almost never see anyone purchase this except when we already have Unique and Exotic weapons.

*Suggestion: *
Have it work like a boon and carry over to whatever weapon you have next. I’d also make it stackable and reduce the bonus to 25 so that if more than one Shrine of Strife is encountered, players can get up to 75 bonus power.

Shrine of Fortune:

Miracle of Smednir
“Increase Pilgrim’s Coins gained by 50% for the next level at the cost of receiving an extra 20% damage for the next level.”

*Feedback: *
The increase in damage taken makes this better for the rich to get richer when it’s easier for players who already have decent boons. If it’s too risky to take this, then the players involved don’t reap any major benefits from avoiding the risk, whereas, a team capable of handling the risk doesn’t need it as much. This contributes to the ‘cumulative advantages/disadvantages’ issue where it’s more useful to players that need it less.

*Suggestion: *
Remove the extra 20% damage received debuff and reduce the bonus to 30%. 50% is huge (especially before the Shadow Temple), and 30% is still a miracle.

Miracle of Ranald
“For the next level, Elites and Special have a chance to drop pickups upon death.”

*Feedback: *
Just as with a lot of the curses I mention later on, this miracle suffers from the issue of having no cap. You keep getting drops no matter what. On Legend and Cataclysm, it’s sometimes hundreds of potions and bombs, and Morgrim’s Bomb too once in a blue moon! This is by far the most powerful miracle!

*Suggestion: *
Simple, don’t have almost EVERY single elite/special drop something. Maybe one per every 5 specials/elites killed on Legend; 1 in 7 on Cataclysm.

Shrine of Harmony:

Miracle of Isha
" When the last member of the party is knocked down, Isha restores their hp to full and strikes down nearby enemies."

*Feedback: *
It’s hard to even tell when this miracle is triggered. It is also quite likely that the last party member will go down pretty quickly without something more going for them. If the player is kicked off a ledge, this does nothing. I’d say maybe 1/10 times I see a player actually survive after this kicks in.

*Suggestion: *
If the player went off a ledge, have it respawn them back on solid ground. Also, give them some temporary buffs such as movement speed, regeneration, and damage reduction for 60 seconds. It’s much harder to clutch in the Chaos Wastes.


Potion of Agility
“Grants hangover screen effect for 3 sec. And then double the dodge distance for 30 sec.”

*Feedback: *
There’s a limit to how much dodging helps before it hurts. With “Decanter” this can be even worse. It lasts a fairly long time, but it’s by far the most useless potion. The dodges also put you in danger when the distance is too high; it becomes unpredictable, especially around ledges.

*Suggestion: *
Cap the dodge distance at a certain point so it remains predictable and safe around ledges.

Keep all dodges effective during the potion effect.

Grant some stamina regeneration bonus, maybe 30% more during the potion effect.

Potion of Life Steal
“Dealing damage restores your Permanent health for 15 seconds.”

*Feedback: *
This potion doesn’t last long, and the amount of health it grants is too closely tied to damage dealt causing the range of efficacy to be wild depending on what boons/weapons/hero power the player has, and if their career outputs more damage.

*Suggestion: *
Up the duration to 25 seconds, and instead of basing the health on damage dealt, have it be based on the row 5 talents of whichever career is using it. The first two level 5 talents are already balanced around the specific weapons available to whichever career the player has chosen. Simply use them as a basis and make the amount of permanent health restored the same as the amount of temp health that would be restored if the player had both level 5 temp health talents.

Potion of Prophetic Strike
“Increase power level(all types of damage/stagger/cleave) by 100%, last 15 sec.”

*Feedback: *
This potion varies greatly in efficacy depending on how much hero power the player has and it doesn’t last long so it’s much better for careers who can deal lots of damage in a short period of time.

*Suggestion: *
If the amount of power were a fixed amount instead of a multiplier, it’d yield more consistently reliable results. I’d up it to 20 seconds and grant a bonus of 650 power (the equivalent of doubling power with Exotic tier weapons) and “Miracle of Ulric”. This way, the potion is also very useful in early missions.

Potion of Wrath
“Increase weapon damage by 100% for 20 sec, and decrease move speed by 50% for 1.5 sec.”

*Feedback: *
The slowdown seems unnecessary and makes this potion less viable to use in a rapidly escalating situation, which is exactly when I like to use potions that increase my damage output.

The main issue though, as with prophetic strike, is that it is better for high damage output careers and those with boons that grant more damage output. It’s also somewhat redundant when something like “Potion of Prophetic Strike” exists. It lasts slightly longer and the effect is slightly less useful. That’s pretty boring.

*Suggestion: *
I recommend reworking this potion to be somewhat different and more interesting by increasing the player’s Critical Strike Chance and Attack Speed by +20% during the potion effect. I’d also remove the 1.5-second slowdown. I want to feel Verana’s wrath in the speed of my strikes!

Potion of Poison Aegis
“Poison immune for 120 sec.”

When Nurgle’s “Infested Foes” is in effect, this is very handy, other than that, poison globe rats are just one special. Does this even work with Troll Bile? Even if it does, that’s two sources of damage out of a massive number of damage sources. Sure it lasts two minutes, and you might as well drink it when you find it, because almost never am I walking around waiting for a poison globadier to pop out of a hole before I drink this. How about Blightstormers? Most of the time it seems like people just drop it for another potion.

Atharti can do better. I say just change the name to Dark Aegis and also include any kind of damage over time effect as an immunity during the potion effect as well as some protection against most harmful debuffs. No slowdown, effects, or damage from Troll Bile, Stormfiends, Blightstorms, or Warp Fire would be nice. I think a player should just be able to waltz through blightstorms, Tzeentch’s Lighting, Nurgle’s Miasma, Khorne’s Skulls, and Blood Tornadoes while this potion is in effect, and keep it at 120 seconds. It’ll be much more valuable to players.



Infested Foes
“Hexed enemies deal poison damage and create poison clouds when they die.”

This curse is the most dreaded Nurgle curse; not saying it shouldn’t stay that way, but it really punishes those melee-only careers. With many tight spaces, this kind of curse can too easily wipe out a team in a way that feels like you’re being cheesed. Players don’t always get to choose where they take on a hexed enemy so damage is often unavoidable.

Suggestion 1:
Just cap the number of enemies that can be hexed during a horde. I imagine that would keep the difficulty of the curse while also keeping it from creating as many situations where players can’t avoid damage.

Suggestion 2:
I think a more interesting solution might be to have hexed enemies have a 10% chance to drop a Potion of Poison Aegis on death but increase the number of hexed enemies. Or, hexed enemies could have a 30% chance to drop an orb that grants the Poison Aegis potion effect for 30 seconds on death.

Skulking Sorcerer
“A malevolent spirit haunts this level. It cannot be slain, only driven off.”

This little spirit isn’t too spooky for Legend or Cataclysm players. It’s basically like having a life leech spawn every 30 seconds, except he doesn’t teleport. This is probably the most boring curse, but it feels like it could be so much more.

Suggestion 2:
Have the spirit do new things when he spawns. Maybe he spawns poison clouds, next time he comes back, he makes a blightstorm, next time he comes back, every one within 15 meters of him gets the “Miasma of Pestilence” curse stacks. Perhaps the spirit also takes different forms, maybe he comes around as a tougher Chaos Warrior or has a low chance to spawn a few times during the mission as a ghastly spirit Chaos Spawn! Maybe he spawns as a horde of spirit-like Nurgle fanatics.


Blood God’s Fury
“Double enemies’ HP that is near the hexed enemies. Only Storm Vermin, Mauler, Chaos Warrior, Bestigor can be hexed.”

Doubling the health of enemies is fine, but quadrupling and beyond gets a little silly. When you have literally 8 hexed enemies in a room and more are spawning in, especially with Bannermen, it starts to get stupidly difficult on difficulties like Legend or Cataclysm.

I recommend capping either the number of hexed enemies that can be around at once or capping the effects of the hex to 2 stacks or having diminishing returns on the stacking effect.


Bolt of Change
“Tzeentch launches arcane bolts from the skies, dealing damage to players and randomly transforming enemies.”

If your team isn’t able to clear hordes very quickly, especially in early missions this curse is far more difficult to manage. On the first level with common weapons and low power, expecting an average Legend quickplay team to take on 10 elites, 6 specials, and 2 Chaos Spawns is too much, and I’ve seen stuff like that happen.

I’d keep track of how many enemies have been changed per bolt and cap how many specials/elites/monsters exist as a result of bolts. I’d have the cap lower for early missions and higher for ones late in the game. For example, on Legend, the first level, maybe cap it at a maximum of 6 elites, 3 specials, and 1 Chaos Spawn at the same time (not including stuff that naturally spawns).


Glory to Greed!
“Pickups are disabled on this map, but hexed enemies spawn items for the taking!”

Everyone’s favorite curse! Because, it’s not really a curse when you’re getting so much more coin and loot, and it’s more frequent than you’d normally find it at higher difficulties. However, there are a few problems with this.

First, people farm it making it fairly easy to exploit by waiting at every altar for the coin to purchase the upgrade, and by waiting at the end till you’re bored, want to move on, and sitting on one to two-thousand Pilgrim’s Coins.

Second, you’re usually getting drops more frequently, especially with modifiers that make specials/elites more common or in later missions where they’re spawning more often anyway (if playing on Champion or above).

Third, those silly barrel explosion boons are now a curse! But, I already put suggestions for that issue when I covered every boon that I have an issue with.

To avoid the farming of Pilgrim’s Coin exploit, ensure that this curse does not affect Pilgrim’s Coin pickups. Keep those still available to find around the level and not from the Pinatas.

To keep the drops from occurring too frequently when specials/elites are spawning, just ensure that these don’t happen quite so often. I’d consider the frequency at which players normally encounter drops throughout the level and set markers where hexed specials or hexed roaming elites will always spawn rather than having it occur randomly. The only time where that makes sense is during a finale such as a ritual ending or when you must use explosive barrels to clear a path; and even then, I’d probably cap the hexed enemies that spawn at some point if it’s taking a long time. This is a curse, after all. Don’t want the U5 warming up to Slaanesh, do we?

Unquenchable Thirst
“Players suffer damage over time. Drinking potions restores health lost to Unquenchable Thirst.”

This Curse causes Ironbreaker’s ‘Gromil Armor’ ability to trigger every time the damage tick occurs, which basically renders the ‘Gromil Armor’ ability useless.

It causes Unchained to continuously up overcharge.

Handmaiden ‘Focused Spirit’ talent is never in effect because it keeps resetting with this curse.

Unchained also has to vent overcharge because it won’t go down with this curse, the damage tick is enough to keep the overcharge from venting on it’s own.

“Caxuatan’s Frenzy” triggers constantly allowing for unlimited critical strikes.

“Ladrielle’s Veil” is rendered nearly useless by this curse. Your invisibility is automatically triggered as soon as it is ready.

However, even playing as a career like Ironbreaker who gets nothing out of the Gromil Armor ability with this curse active, it is still more of a blessing than a curse. Potions are plentiful, much more so than healing. Temp health generation is good enough that 1% of max health every 2 seconds is not extremely detrimental. Players may also have one or more boons like “Natural Bond”, “Boon of Shallya”, “Shallya’s Rejuvenation”, and/or “Isha’s Embrace”. These directly counteract the curse.

Likewise, players with a larger health pool will have a much easier time with this curse than players without it, which also contributes to the issue of over-accumulated advantage/disadvantage making this curse easier for players who have had opportunities to grab boons that will counteract it. There are some curses that get more difficult to deal with the further on players are in the wastes, others that get easier, and this one definitely is more likely to become easier to manage with opportunities to get health, healing, and regeneration.

There is a larger issue at hand where I think it doesn’t make much sense for certain talents/boons/abilities to be triggered by certain sources of damage that I’ve mentioned, but all that could be avoided if it worked similar to the Nurgle’s “Miasma of Pestilence”, where you gradually accrue stacks of the “Curse” debuff. I’d recommend every 4 seconds put 1 stack of the “Curse” debuff on the player reducing max health by 2%, and of course, drinking a potion removes the curse. This way, it affects players fairly equally regardless of how large their health pool is and still presents a challenge for players who have regeneration, healing, and health bonuses.


Shadow Skulls
“Vicious skulls spawn out of thin air. Destroy or avoid them or else be incapacitated.”

The skulls are very small and players and it mainly disadvantages players with slower melee weapons (like greathammers) and also those without ranged weapons capable of hitting multiple targets or hitting targets quickly. Unlike when players are disabled by a lich or assassin, you can’t help them. When you’re in a horde and stunned for 2.5 seconds on Legend or Cataclysm, that’s a death sentence almost every time; almost immediately if you’re the squishy type. No other curse out there outright gets a player down a player within a few seconds so quickly. No other curse has an effect that disables a player either. There are times where a player’s health is low and they’re truly going down when they get hit once. I don’t think any curse in the game should make that scenario likely every 30 seconds.

Make the skulls significantly bigger, I’m thinking 50% bigger (also an opportunity to make them more imposing looking). The small hitbox and target make it extremely cheesy to get hit by one during a horde. Also, allow players to rescue each other from it. I don’t see why that isn’t an option. I’d also make it so that taking damage removes the effect so that one skull during a horde doesn’t result in a player outright dying.

Holseher’s Map

Feedback 1:
Mission Power Up bonuses are not proportional to the difficulty of the mission. Even when you get two options, sometimes one is just a bad reward for a more difficult mission, and/or the other is a good reward for an easier mission.

Certain combinations of curses and map modifiers will increase/decrease the difficulty of a mission, sometimes exponentially. Ensure the Power Up reward is proportional to the difficulty of the map instead of a flat bonus that’s the same every time.

The question, “Should I choose the Khorne cursed level with +Hordes, +Roaming Enemies Skaven and Beastmen for 5% Movement Speed or the Slaanesh cursed level with -Specials, +Pilgrim’s Coin, Skaven, and Chaos for 10% Attack Speed?” is a pretty mundane choice. Unless someone is “touched by the chaos gods” or just wants to make things really difficult and the team angry, they’re almost always going to choose the later. In fact, rarely is the team split on any decision since there are so many like this.

Conversely, the question, “Should I choose the Khorne cursed level with +Hordes, +Roaming Enemies Skaven and Beastmen for 15% Movement Speed or the Slaanesh cursed level with -Specials, +Roaming Enemies, Skaven, and Chaos for 5% Attack Speed?” is a much more interesting question. Even if one thinks this is an obvious choice still, it’s much more proportional than before.

Feedback 2:
On top of poor choices, there aren’t many choices. 1 to 2? In many layouts, you’re hardly getting a choice of what route you get to take.

To avoid getting railroaded, the player needs to have more options. There are many curses and many modifiers, but when you don’t even get to choose, so what? I’d say make it so that there are at least two options every time you at the map, and up to three. Cumulative advantage/disadvantage should be tied more closely to smart choices rather than getting railroaded into a difficult situation.

I know Chaos Wastes expeditions are already long, too long for some people and more options would lengthen it because they must converge on the finale, but I don’t see why the finale can’t be at the end of many branches. If there are more options, simply have several of them converge on the final level. Just as one level could branch out to 3 more levels, there’s no reason that many many levels at the end of several branches can’t all converge on the finale.

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Time is limited, so I will start with this one and maybe do answer the second topic at another point. It is also easier to answer here, although I may not quote all the time to keep answer shorter.

As a rather mundane start I want to say that some changes are rather difficult or more work-intensive with the existing code. This doesn’t mean that we should stop suggesting things but we should keep it in mind if we want to have any change of implementation of said changes. I have seen changes in the past which have been excellent on paper but simply didnt work well with the framework of the existing code. With that said to the topic:

Weapon Traits: Double traits is to powerful for me, especially if you consider the chance of getting Swift Slaying plus one of the more powerful CW traits. Also, as you said the weapon traits themselves need a rework to make Swift Slaying far weaker. However, there is a certain gap in the power of the campaign and CW traits (and also one or two CW traits themselves). I would simply suggest to completely remove all campaign traits from the CW weapon trait pool.


How exactly do you consider this to function? You would need to create a list per talent which blocks certain weapons? In worst case this exploit happy community would quickly find the perfect talent combination that random shrines only can give out specific weapons. In worst case, you have a talent combination where no weapon could be chosen, leading to a crash. Random shrines are random. That’s part of the deal. That is why they are cheaper.

Effectively, this would be a third type of shrine. And so the game would have to first decide which shrine effect to activate which could lead to troubles. I am also partially against the ability to reroll traits without changing weapons because people are to fixated on certain weapons. Then again, the situation is rare enough that you find a temper shrine of same rarity than your weapon. On the other hand, the situation is rare. So why bother with the work anyway.

Properties effects are less important so most of the upgrade effect come down to weapon trait and power bonus. As the bonus is counting for both weapons it would only be trait, so only be relevant for orange or higher. Which would lead to yet another economy exploit to simply upgrade the “offhand” weapon for green and blue. No the costs for upgrading should stay as they are, especially since the increase to before 4.7 is compensated by random boons cost.


This is suprising to me because I still see a lot of people not using the cheaper random boons and just hoarding coins for the map shrines. So anything to move this balance even further in the direction of hoarding coins.
However, more different type of shrines is something i consider interesting.

**** Morgrim’s bomb. Like seriously. This is one of the most aggravating, unfun elements of the current Chaos Wastes. This is a serious in-game exploit which should not exist. Morgrim’s Bomb should not be duplicated by Kalita’s Barter, nor should it not be consumed by RV’s parting gift. Fatshark should do something about this because everytime people are hunting for Shrine’s of Strife. This is serious fun and balance issue which has to be tackled. If in return to bomb becomes stronger but is not exploitable anymore, so be it. Like seriously, at least change RV Parting Gift to work differently.
Ulric: Used rarely, maybe make it even cheaper. Not sure if it possible to make it permanent on subsequent weapons.
Smednir: The damage has to be there for a simple reason. Miracles shall offer a choice of investment for the chance of a game changer. If Smednir gives only coins (even at 30 %) then it becomes a simply calculation, namely if you can get back your investiment. With 50 % it would be a no-brainer because you get more than you spend. Even at 30 % it does pay for itself without risk. So even on a personal level it would be an always take. If you consider the group benefit, then it would be unquestionable. If something is always taken, it is bad design. There needs to be a disdvantage.
Ranald: Surprised me as well. Never considered this to be the most powerful miracle. Especially since no health itesm are dropped. If you want some reduction, sure why not.

Agility: I play mostly weapons with lower dodge values, so I have nowhere the issues you describe. So for me this is a good potion especially if I am alone and needs to make room. Capping the dodge distance at certain points sounds like looots of work if even possible at all. Also, I don’t think that changing potion effect depending on where you stand will make good gameplay and rather confuse and infuriate players.
Lifesteal: Even with Shield weapons I never had an issue with this potion. I think it is fine.
Skipping on Wrath and Strike. To much to think about.
Poison Aegis: THIS is for me to most worthless potion, since there is exactly one circumstance where it helps. So yea, I agree it would be cool to have this potion affect more than just poison. In the past I have suggested immunity against all curses. However, I fear this as well falls into the category of to complicate to implement.

Infested foes: Seems like another issue coming from someone playing mostly melee only classes? I play a lot of Unchained so I understand to some degree, however I think it is mostly fine as it depends on the team playing around it. Maybe some less hexed enemies would be enough.
Blood God’s Fury: Are you certain this stacks unlimited and is doubling health? That is hard to believe with some end arenas having 5+ hexed enemies active in close vicinity. That would mean thirty time more health. So yea, if it does stack, limit the stacking to a max of 2 stacks.
Bolt of change: Well, yea. On Cataclysm this comes pretty close to a sure game ender. I am not sure if the game is able to track bolted enemies. Because it could be reduced in frequency as long as some of them are still active.
Glory to Greed: **** this one as well. Another brutally unfun CW element. Farming is boring and people are exploiter. Horrible combination. I would like to see a diminishing return the more coins you have or have already collected. But it is once again, nice on paper but not implementable. So for this I would take your suggestion and go more extreme. Pickups still disabled for all but the coins. So the coins still spawn normally and therefore are not part of the pinata. Reducing could help if done well. Or it increase the bore of farming even more.
Unquenchable Thirst: This is the second reason why I have Glory to Greed. Because people always foam for Slaneesh maps and then we get thirst and as Unchained I am doomed because you are becoming an one-hit wonder instead of a two-hit wonder. So here, I agree as well that it would be nice if it wouldn’t affect so many things in good as in bad ways. But this would again need a larger work on the code and even some changes as you would need to track the damage differently.
Shadow Skulls: Would be nice if they behave more similar to the flies to allow better assistance. Or if they would have different debuffs than just immobility.

Holseher’s Map:
Randomness is part of the fun. I partially agree that a propotional risk/benefit gameplay would be interesting. The issue is in perception though. I often chose differently than the team as I value other things as my team. I also see sometimes split decision where the dice has to decide. Also, a lot of players are only looking at the reward and ignore the risk anyway. +Horde and Tzeentch? Sure let’s go there, it has the holy +crit or +as. So, I am not directly against the idea. But I think it is not easy to make a system where choices are balanced all the time.

Considering the more routes to chose. Well, I have a fun little game for you. Try to make a Holseher’s Map where you have more routes than just two all the times and keep in mind the expedition restriction of four normal maps, two shrines and one arena. It isn’t exactly easy.

Also, excuse the formatting. It is a bit poor but would be even more lengthy otherwise. I am open to some changes in general, however I would like to keep the randomness and challenge of the Wastes as personal preference.

I considered this as well, but I figured you might be able to point that out when it comes up.

My suggestion about being able to get double traits was from buying them at Shrines for coins. I don’t think it’s too OP considering how significantly the Veteran boon pool has been diminished (about half of them are boons I avoid). If Campaign traits are removed, then it’ll probably result in OP stuff a lot, and I wouldn’t suggest this. I was thinking it’d be nice to have one campaign trait on top of one of the new powerful Chaos Wastes traits.

I think that might work too.

A list per talent doesn’t sound too intensive. There’s only a few careers that have talents specific to certain weapons and there are only a few handfuls of weapon types per character/career.

Presumably, ranged weapons, two-handed weapons, and one-handed weapons already have some kind of flag to differentiate them since the talents themselves wouldn’t function if it was that difficult to make a short list of conditions. I’m not gonna pretend like this is even remotely a difficult thing to do.

Unless you know something I don’t about the way the game is designed, I have no idea why this would be so hard to implement.

I can’t think of a combination that leads to only one weapon being given out at random boon shrines, nor a combination that wouldn’t allow any. Can you give me some examples?

If that’s the point you’re missing the problem entirely. The issue is that random weapon swaps are more or less disadvantageous to certain careers or if you use certain talents. I figured this was extremely obvious, but I’ll elaborate.

Grail Knight, Warrior Priest, or Slayer can get by without a secondary weapon. It’s easy to upgrade a decent primary melee weapon like Greathammer and lots of stamina and attack speed boons to overcome its shortfalls. Then you only have to worry about upgrading one weapon. Even though ranged careers like BH and Waystalker rely a lot on ranged, they’ll probably need to upgrade the melee as well.

Another example, Slayer has A Thousand Cuts and Skullsplitter. One of the few careers with a talent that only works with specific weapons. You have to avoid random weapon swaps if you want the benefits of that talent since there’s a decent chance you’ll get a weapon that doesn’t work with those talents. As Slayer, you now have to avoid builds using those talents. What’s worse is that you can also get them from Seer’s Altars randomly, in which case one of them will always be a waste of coins, so I now avoid playing Slayer in the wastes. That’s hardly optimal to disadvantage an entire career like that.

You quoted a large block of text here, what exactly are you referring to?

I should’ve elaborated a bit more on this idea. The idea that I have in mind now, is that every shrine offers to temper or swap one of your weapons alongside the miracles and boons. This way, if you missed a crucial spot to temper or swap a weapon, you have an extra opportunity before moving on.

As for “Altars” of the same rarity of your weapon, which is what I think you mean. It just so happens, I seem to find them fairly often on the Citadel of Eternity when I have a Veteran weapon, or on the last mission. It’s quite common I’m not happy with my weapon’s trait and properties, and I might have enough coin to reroll it, but I don’t want to swap it for a different kind of weapon.

I left this out, but I also think it’d be nice to have a refund menu at Shrines for boons so that you could a little coin back.

It seems like whoever at Fatshark is working on the Chaos Wastes boons and miracles must be fully aware that Kalita’s Barter and Parting Gift both allow you to reuse the bomb. The timer is set specifically to be a bit longer for both. I think it just needs a longer cooldown, and Ranger Vet currently has no cooldown for reusing Morgrim’s Bomb. I’d just modify his Ranger’s Parting Gift talent for the Chaos Wastes so that it has a timer that is equivalent to Kalita’s Barter. Kalita’s barter isn’t nearly as broken as Ranger Vet using Parting Gift with Morgrim’s Bomb. It’s currently 3 minutes for Kalita’s Barter. I say just make it 5 minutes for both of them.

[quote=“Adelion, post:2, topic:50308”]
Also, a lot of players are only looking at the reward and ignore the risk anyway. +Horde and Tzeentch? Sure let’s go there, it has the holy +crit or +as. So, I am not directly against the idea. But I think it is not easy to make a system where choices are balanced all the time.
[/quote]That is true, but I don’t think it’s too difficult to create a system where difficult maps offer better rewards.

Here’s a crude example of how one might do it:

Assign each modifier/curse a value based on how it affects the difficulty of the mission.

Then create a simple spreadsheet of values based on the number you get.

The reward bonus is Attack Speed. Here are the options.

0 = 5%
1 = 7% (7.5%)
2 = 10%
3 = 12% (12.5%)
4 = 15%

Khorne Champions = 2
+Hordes = 1
+Elites = 1

The total is 4, Attack Speed reward is 15%.

Conversely for an easier mission:

The reward is Block Cost Reduction.

0 = 20%
1 = 25%
2 = 30%
3 = 35%
4 = 40%

Slaanesh’s Glory to Greed = 0
+PIlgrim’s Coin = 0
-Specials = 0

The total is 0, the reward is a 20% Block Cost Reduction.

Of course, you don’t have to use arbitrary values. I’d recommend one create a few functions to adjust the reward. The first function assigns values to the map modifier and uses that to determine the Challenge Rating of a level. The second function determines the reward by using a multiplier value based on the Challenge Rating. You can then round the results to something more arcade-like. You can also show the player the expected Challenge Rating of the mission. Math is not so limited that you can’t adjust the reward to weigh it against the expected difficulty of the mission.

I don’t see why that’s not possible. One could even create procedurally generated maps with that criteria.

I’m not sure I can follow here. In the below part you say removing traits might work while in the upper part you say it would probably result in OP stuff. You are also talking about boons at one point. If you mean removing campaign traits and double traits, yea that would be obviously to powerful. Sidenote: Considering the boon pool and the rarity I am open for changes in some rarities which you have suggested in your other thread. But I wanted to leave it for that one.

Would have to check what I wrote exactly but yea a block list shouldnt be to hard to implement, however I am not sure I would like for increased chances to manipulate the weapon swaps.

I have not considered this in depth. It is just something we should be mindful about. But let’s take the easiest example of Slayer. You have a Thousand Cuts, so your talent will block out all one-handed weapons. Now you get from a random boon shrine Skull-Splitter which will block out all two-handed weapons. What does the weapon swap shrine give to you? Or if you take Thousand Cuts (only give one-handed-weapons) and Doomseeker (but only with higher cleave) which throws out axes for example and all two-handed weapons. I would not be surprised if you can tinker your start talents to a point where the weapon swap would be largely restricted.

I think i got the issue. It is just that I have a different preference in that case. So I simply disagree.

Well, the two shrines currently have two functions. One is swap (weapon and trait) and one is upgrade to higher rarity. With your proposal you would have an additional shrine (swap but only trait). So it would be a new function and your current upgrade shrine would first have to make a check if you have already the said rarity and then offer the trait swap.
Although reading this now it seems that you want to make every upgrade shrine having both options? Like by pressing different buttons it does either the one or the other? As for the chance of this happening: In the Citadel it can happen but I think it is nearly exclusive to the Citadel unless you used a weapon swap before. If the costs are the same as for upgrading I think this would be okay. It is a hefty sum for the chance of getting a better trait.

Surely they are aware. But I disagree with their evaluation on that matter. However, I think I can agree with the issue being more problematic on RV. So increasing the times on Kalita’s Barter might help a little (it is still three bombs per map). But Ranger Veteran is to much of an issue. If I understand correctly the “no-consuming-bomb” is a stack which you keep even after your career skill which means that you can two Morgrim’s in succesion. And with the increase in career skill cooldown on certain talents you are shitting out bombs to no end like at least at every horde and more. I would stronlgy wish to see a change to parting gift that the smoke bomb simply deal explosion damage like a normal bomb. Would cover the same idea, remove the need to throw a bomb and would remove the exploit.

Yea, okay. I misunderstood what you meant there. It is not that you want to sort the type but rather the strength of the bonus itself. That would certainly add some interesting considerations to the Wastes. Would still be difficult to make the risk-balance proportional but I generally like this idea.

Not saying it is not possible, just saying that there exist many iterations which cover the restrictions. Would have try to do it myself. I mean I did consider at one point myself that Holsehers map offers something like an outside path which works slightly differently. But without the ability to see everything of it, it gives an unnecessary risk. Viewability is also an issue but I will leave that outside the discussion.

I made a suggestion regarding how these talents should work as boons in the other thread about boons; however, if things remain as they are, if you have both boons, there can be a check in place to see if your other weapon is one-handed or two-handed, then if it will grant either a one-handed or two-handed weapon depending on which one your offhand weapon is.

Slayer is the only one I can think of that would need a special condition like this one.

[quote=“Adelion, post:4, topic:50308”]
I think i got the issue. It is just that I have a different preference in that case. So I simply disagree.
[/quote]You quoted my whole post again here, I’m confused.

I think the confusion here comes from the terminology I’m using.

“Shrines” come between each mission. They offer boons and miracles.

“Altars” or more specifically “Warrior’s Altars”, “Hunter’s Altars”, and “Seer’s Altars”.

My idea was to have shrines offer Swaps and Tempers. OR maybe include one new random trait as an option to add on your weapon alongside boons. I’d also include a refund menu option somewhere that lets you trade in boons for maybe 100 coins each.

Oh, I tried briefly in excel to make a procedurally generated map for fun, and it is somewhat difficult. I do believe it is doable though.

this is some good ass feedback and evaluation.

the only things i would suggest to devs, is that I really enjoy this mode, and would support adding to it.

*keep the chaos wastes 5-6 mission mode, BUT
also add a like 20-25 mission mode for folks who wanna like splurge out and like take on a huge campaign together.

i also support the idea of adding a handful of ‘map modifiers’ such as traveling accross a bridge, and having the bridge collapse in order to have the team reconsider their direction jointly.
it might seem silly, but i feel that novelty aspect could add a lot to this mode.