(Suggestion) Vampire Counts as a new enemy Faction?

I know we probably won’t be seeing a new faction any time soon, but I thought it’d be interesting to indulge ourserlves and try to imagine what the Undead might look like in VT2.

First we’d need a good in-lore reason to justify the Undead facing the Ubersreik Four (or is it Five?), but i’ll admit I’m not the best with WET lore, so maybe one of you guys has a brilliant idea. I guess some minion of Mannfred?
(EDIT: Most people point out that the Undead and Nurgle Worshippers wouldn’t ally, and while this is mostly true, war has seen some weird alliances in the world of WET. That being said, the new faction could also be a “standalone” army, and one could imagine maps with only one faction (much like Into the Nest).
Or simply a map with Skaven-Undead combinations.)

Then we need to find a fitting unit for each and every role that a Vermintide Faction has to offer. I tried to put down on paper a few basic ideas, feel free to suggest more/better concepts.

Basic enemies

  • (Slave rats) Zombies : Basically the most basic kind of enemies that form the base of every bas…army. Similar to the rotbloods, probably, might need some tweaking to make sure they’re not too slow, I guess?

  • (Clan rats) Skeleton Warriors : The “regular” units, equivalent of the Clan rats/Fanatics. might eb equipped with all kinds of rotting weapons.

  • [Suggested:

  • -Crypt Ghoul: […] Crypt Ghouls would also be a less-common enemy, but not quite an elite. They’d crawl on all fours, and their attacks would be relatively weak, but apply a damage-over-time effect, rather like the warpfire of a Stormfiend. The total damage done would only be comparable to a normal hit, though, so it wouldn’t be massive.(BizarreSalp) ]

Elite enemies

  • (Storm Vermins) Grave Guards : Bettr armor, better weapons, need I say more? Skeletal SV, to keep it simple.

  • (Plague Monks) Ghouls/Wraiths : This one’s trickier. Maybe a frenetic Ghoul, slashing and screaming? Or maybe a dual wielding wraith, attacking with two rusty swords (and screaming too)?

  • (Chaos Warriors) Bigger Grave Guards/Crypt Horrors/Vampire Warrior : This one’s also tricky, but I guess a bigger version of the armoured skeleton warrior would do the trick (kind of like Krell?). Maybe a Crypt Horror (basically a bigger ghoul), or even a smaller but quicker Vampire (who said that the strongest enemies have to be huge?). “Black Knight: Dismounted, obviously. They’d be armored, and have noticeably more health than regular Grave Guard, but be bigger and more dangerous, along with giving curse when they hit you. (BizarreSalp)”

  • [Suggested:

  • -Cairn Wraiths: More dangerous than Spirits, with a bit more health and scythes that they make huge sweeps with. Like Spirits, they would have no collision hitbox, so you can pass through them. Doing that, or getting hit by them will give you curse. (BizarreSalp) ]

Specials

  • Necromancer – I thought of a special that could raise/spawn new enemies. Imagine hearing an incantation and turning to see a mini-patrol of elites rising from the ground (might be a problem with stone-floored levels). Alternatively, the spawns coud just appear out of thin air (with the appropriate effect), as if summoned. Might either spawn Basic enemies (smaller horde?) or Elite enemies (smaller patrol?). Might be able to teleport (BS).

  • Wraith – Similar to Gutter Runner or Leech, would jump on a player and incapacitate it. Alternatively, could start fluttering around a player’s head, dealing damage (might be annoying).

  • Banshee – Attack similar in effect to Troll vomit, her screams could slow/blind/incapacitate? the players affected. “An ethereal unit, they’d approach the heroes before unleashing a blood-curdling scream that damages and stuns before retreating to repeat the process. A successful scream also imparts a portion of curse. This scream is targeted at a hero in a cone, with a limited range, meaning that heroes can bait out their sonic attack and dodge it. It will affect every hero within the cone, however, so closely-packed groups can all be hit.”(BizarreSalp)

  • Ghoul – Similar to Gutter Runners, maybe Packmasters too? Would grab the player and damage them while dragging them away, maybe slower than a Packmaster?

[Suggested:

Fell Bat: A semi-disabler, they’d fly in and swoop down at heroes, knocking them down. They wouldn’t pin you down like some, but you’d have to go through the standing-up animation that leaves you vulnerable. While this sounds weak, I’m willing to bet that they’d be a real threat, since they’d draw your eyes up, away from threats on the ground. (BizarreSalp)

-Dire Wolf: Huge rotting wolves, they charge at the heroes, dodging incoming fire quite easily, before leaping in to deal high damage, or stagger the hero if they block. Dire Wolves are best dealt with by dodging their lunges and then striking them in the flanks. When they die, Dire Wolves melt into disgusting puddles, much like Clan Eshin assassins. (BizarreSalp)

-Bloated Zombie: Basically a suicide-bomber zombie. (BizarreSalp)

Bosses

  • Vargheist: " Like huge human/bat hybrids, these bosses appear with a terrible screech and swoop down to land amongst the heroes. They attack with lunging bites and swipes of their claws, and may take to the air again to reach distant enemies or simply change position. They also can grab heroes to take a bite, draining some of their health to heal themselves, and giving the hero curse in the process." (BizarreSalp)

  • Terrorgheist

  • Vampire

  • Strigoi Ghoul King

  • Crypt Horror: “Like Bile Trolls, Crypt Horrors possess a passive regeneration, but cannot recover the huge chunks of health at once of trolls. This passive regeneration only begins to work a few moments after the last time they were attacked, however.” (BizarreSalp)


Any feedback is welcome, I’ll update the OP if we come up with better ideas!

2 Likes

I’m also not great with WET Lore but afaik they didn’t side with chaos. However what would be freaking awesome is that they are not a reskin of the existing enemies but another faction. How epic would it be to turn a corner and see a full on battle between Undead and Skaven f.e. and if you engage both side will attack you as well as each other. Further it could be made so that undead would win more often and if they do they might raise the fallen skaven/chaos units so you cant just let them battle it out as every fallen enemy might come back to haunt you… like literally. Would be really sweet.

Ok, but what about the current plot and how to explain their appearance in the game?
IMO better new enemy faction would be beastmen. Why? Pestigors (beastmen) are worshipers of Nurgle, they also act like horde similar to skavens. Nice connection, right? In this case you can easily put them in a game (without breaking current story) with some DLC and we have a nice unholy trio in game :slight_smile:

I agree that Beastmen are a more logical choice, but I think Undead would be a great faction. As to why - I don’t think it’s hard to just have a rogue Necromancer. They’re not exactly usually team players.

The bigger issue is really that Nurgle hates the undead, since they don’t get sick or decay - their unchanging nature is anathema to Chaos.

That said, I’d definitely want them to be a faction with some new and unique mechanics. The biggest one would be what I call “temp curse”. Just like how taking a grim lowers your max health, temp curse would do the same, but slowly decay over time, so a single hit early on wouldn’t just mean you’re stuck that way for the whole map. Obviously this wouldn’t be exactly proportional to the damage taken, but would discourage hit-trading. I’d color that part of the bar bluish instead of reddish, and Curse Resist would decrease how much you got.

Infantry:

-Zombie: obvious chaff material, I imagine them as being high-HP (for chaff). Maybe something like 25 health. Since they’re rotting corpses, however, give them a low cleave resistance.

-Skeleton Warriors: As OP said, more of the “clan rat” type enemy. Could have just hand weapons or shields+weapons. Since they’re old skeletons, it might be interesting if a crit would shatter them. :smiley:

-Spirit: Just kind of a generic ghost, I can see them having a few unique mechanics. First of all, give a new armor-type, “ethereal”. This takes greatly reduced damage from most weapons, except magical ones, such as Sienna’s staves, Hagbane, Fire Sword, et cetera. I don’t imagine they’d have any collision box for players, so you could pass right through them. Doing so, though, will give you a small bit of curse.
Would help if some kind of weapon trait could be introduced to help deal with them. They’d have almost no cleave resistance, obviously, and be a “rarer” chaff unit.

-Crypt Ghoul: Yeah, another chaff unit - that’s kind of a major thing to Undead, isn’t it? So Crypt Ghouls would also be a less-common enemy, but not quite an elite. They’d crawl on all fours, and their attacks would be relatively weak, but apply a damage-over-time effect, rather like the warpfire of a Stormfiend. The total damage done would only be comparable to a normal hit, though, so it wouldn’t be massive.

Elites:

-Grave Guard: An obvious choice, heavily armored skelly boys in ancient armor. Could come in several variants, like great weapon and with shields.

-Cairn Wraiths: More dangerous than Spirits, with a bit more health and scythes that they make huge sweeps with. Like Spirits, they would have no collision hitbox, so you can pass through them. Doing that, or getting hit by them will give you curse.

-Black Knight: Dismounted, obviously. They’d be armored, and have noticeably more health than regular Grave Guard, but be bigger and more dangerous, along with giving curse when they hit you.

Specials:

-Necromancer: Some kind of apprentice of whoever is the big bad, these guys teleport around and summon Spirits to attack the players.

-Banshee: An ethereal unit, they’d approach the heroes before unleashing a blood-curdling scream that damages and stuns before retreating to repeat the process. A successful scream also imparts a portion of curse. This scream is targeted at a hero in a cone, with a limited range, meaning that heroes can bait out their sonic attack and dodge it. It will affect every hero within the cone, however, so closely-packed groups can all be hit.

-Fell Bat: A semi-disabler, they’d fly in and swoop down at heroes, knocking them down. They wouldn’t pin you down like some, but you’d have to go through the standing-up animation that leaves you vulnerable. While this sounds weak, I’m willing to bet that they’d be a real threat, since they’d draw your eyes up, away from threats on the ground.

-Dire Wolf: Huge rotting wolves, they charge at the heroes, dodging incoming fire quite easily, before leaping in to deal high damage, or stagger the hero if they block. Dire Wolves are best dealt with by dodging their lunges and then striking them in the flanks. When they die, Dire Wolves melt into disgusting puddles, much like Clan Eshin assassins.

-Bloated Zombie: Basically a suicide-bomber zombie. This was actually an unused enemy in the current game, it seems.

-Savage Vampire: A Vampire who hasn’t turned into a full-on huge monster like a Varghulf, but still have lost their mind. The first true disabler in the roster, they’d approach and then do a fast charge to grab a hero and try to drain their health (while giving curse). They could be pushed off, but are relatively high-health. If they miss a charge, they’ll swipe and try to stagger nearby heroes before escaping to try again.

Monsters:

-Vargheight: Like huge human/bat hybrids, these bosses appear with a terrible screech and swoop down to land amongst the heroes. They attack with lunging bites and swipes of their claws, and may take to the air again to reach distant enemies or simply change position. They also can grab heroes to take a bite, draining some of their health to heal themselves, and giving the hero curse in the process.

-Crypt Horror: Crypt Ghouls fed the blood of a vampire will grow and change into the hideous monstrosities of Crypt Horrors. Wielding anything as a makeshift weapon, they will batter at their enemies, but their deadliest weapons are their claws, which imbue curse as well as poisoning the hero. Like Bile Trolls, Crypt Horrors possess a passive regeneration, but cannot recover the huge chunks of health at once of trolls. This passive regeneration only begins to work a few moments after the last time they were attacked, however.

3 Likes

I am afraid that in this one sentence you answered the question: why undeads should not appear?

Maybe in some separate story in future DLC,? But it does not destroy the story as a whole?

Yep, it’d be pretty hard to justify with the Chaos forces. And personally, I’d hate to see them relegated to some maps unique to them; the whole point of adding new enemies would be to shake up the whole game.

Beyond that, Skaven really don’t like the undead, they have a long history of fighting them.

It’s still fun to think about, though. :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Fat Shark doesn’t need to be limited to Nurgle and Skaven story. They can make “Beastide”, “Greentide” or “Deathtide”. By the end of Vermintide 2 we might get to resolve the Skaven and Nurgle problem only to be introduced to some new threat.
I would rather leave new faction for Vermintide 3 than to implement some half-faction or “zombie-skavens” to VT2.

Well, as I said, it is higly unlikely we’ll see another faction in VT2? The sheer amount of work needed (with a new faction we’d probably need new maps too) makes it really hard to consider.
It’s more for the sake of it, really, just to wonder how it would look like. :slight_smile:

1 Like

Sorry if I my reply sounded a little bit rough, it wasn’t my intention :slight_smile:
Well, basically, we already have a pretty good idea how would each faction look like if we go through the tabletop faction books. I don’t know how familiar you are with the books, if you wish I can post some images :slight_smile: (for Vampire Counts)

EDIT

I went through your original post again, I see that you are already familiar with the VC lore :wink:

3 Likes

Yeah, VT1 gave me a real taste for Warhammer Fantasy. :smiley: You were fine, tho.

@SilentKiwik, I think it’s reasonably possible we’ll see new enemies, maybe a new enemy faction, in the game. During development, Jsat brought information about how they’d built the game to be easy to develop new enemies in. When he and three others were there play-testing, he said that they added a new enemy to the game just in that week. This could of course not be true now - but if it IS, then I think it’s okay to be excited. Plus, it does seem hinted by Fatshark; the Dark Pact page on their website leaves a clear place for a new faction, and they love to hint at stuff - they hinted at Nurgle in VT1, even, with the whole “secret meeting” and the Nurgle emblem in the floor of the room where we fight Warlord Krench.

So I wouldn’t count it out! :smiley: They want to keep working on the game for 5-10 years? They must have some big ideas in the pipeline. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Yea, there’s gotta be some big content updates on the way. 5-10 years of support for V2 has got to include something big to keep people interested. Might not be an entire new enemy type, but maybe new monster bosses or perhaps even just new elites.

2 Likes

Yeah, I’d have to agree that we can be hopeful. Keeping VT2 relevant for 2-4 more years, at this point, wouldn’t be too much of a stretch and they probably wouldn’t need to introduce more than a new hero/a lot of weapons/a lot of cosmetics/a lot of levels. In order to keep it relevant for 6-8 more years, though… that’s grounds for a new faction, 1-3 new heroes, a few new standard pactsworn enemy types, and tons of new weapons/cosmetics/maps.

@SmokerT69 I think you are right if they are planning on short term. If FatShark wants people to love their game past the day they say “we are going to stop supporting VT2 now”, I’d really hope they are planning on a new faction on top of everything else. Then again, that’s just my opinion :stuck_out_tongue:

3 Likes

The most logical thing to do would be to see Beastmen, because they worship chaos and have their own Nurgle units.
On the other hand an intelligent Vampire / Necromancer could also take advantage of all that death and destruction created by the dark pact and try to take advantage of the corpses as free troops.
This could justify the appearance of Undeads in the game.

2 Likes

I contend you could introduce the vampire counts as enemies under the guise that they are followers of Heinrich Kemmler, who was purported to have made a pact with the chaos gods in exchange for power and in order to raise Krell into his service. There are other reasons you could introduce them, but I think this angle would make the most sense.

Heinrich Kemmler is killed off before Nurgle’s rampage across the empire in the tales of the End TImes so I do not believe Kemmler would be the reason for the Undead’s appearance in Vermintide. However, Isabel was possessed by a daemon with allegiance to Nurgle in exchange for revenge against the Vampire Counts and even lead an army of Nugle daemons to invade Sylvannia to disrupt Nagash’s plans.

2 Likes

I didn’t know Kemmler was dead by the time of Nurgle’s rampage, I suppose that might make it difficult. Though, his followers might still be alive. That being said, it would be interesting to fight a faction lead by a vampire possessed by a daemon of Nurgle. I’d be happy if that is how they chose to explain the introduction of the Vampire Counts to VT2.

1 Like

There are numerous ways to introduce the Vampires. The beauty of the Vampire society is that they could have spies and allies in all pores and structures of the Empire. There was a similar theme in Dead Winter, Skaven had human allies on the surface helping their cause.
I can easily imagine an Empire nobleman or noblewoman being a Vampire ally.

2 Likes

Your reply was fine, no worries!
I’m sorry if my OP was a bit unclear, I only aimed to stir some discussion :slight_smile:

I thought of Kemmler too, but I figured he wouldn’t be around anymore during the events of VT2. Though, as beazrdedragon said, one could imagine some kind of lieutenant still loyal to Nurgle.
I have to say, I love the idea of a possessed Vampire, that would make for some interesting lore, and maybe some interesting Boss fights: maybe something akin to the Gatekeeper fight, where the Vampire Boss turns into a Greater Demon of Nurgle or something?

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A complete new faction would be a huge thing and since as of right now, even new carreers aren’t within reach, I doubt they have the ressources for a complete new faction. But I agree, beastmen would be the only ones that would be easy to implement lore-wise.

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