now you dropped a sentence that got me interested,
you claim information is the reason that already warrants the scoreboard
let me ask you, why would you want a scoreboard over another form of information?
many games have actual stat-trackers build in or have 3rd parties offer such Services that track stats for the entire existente of your account and allow you to see them at any point.
even going so far to calculate averages vs recent stats and comparing them.
to me that seems to be far far more reliable way to get information on how to improve.
if we leave any other argument out and only focus on information i don’t buy it.
In terms of this discussion? Only the proponents of its removal have brought up the circles. (Unless I missed something/forgot something, I can’t be arsed to review the entire thread again) That was specifically in reference to @akaLuckyEye being the only one in that back and forth to try to make it all about the competitive aspect.
I literally said I’d be (mostly) okay with them hiding other player’s specific stats.
Scoreboard is purely a name thing. It could just as easily be called a stats page and it would be equally valid. This is getting painful to debate.
I just answered that. Throwing up the idea that it’s more acceptable to go to a third party site when the devs already had the information in game and available to players but removed it for asinine reasons doesn’t warrant a response outside of “Why should we have to do that?”
Every time I try a different weapon or some such shouldn’t require going to a third party website just to see my damage for that level/compare it to the others in the run or something. And stats in a pure vacuum aren’t entirely useful. (Though not useless)
From a game production sense, a bunch of numbers on the screen are good for players to build characters, but it looks less visually appealing than a few numerically barren graphed charts. I’d prefer to see raw damage numbers on my weapon stats as well, but it is what it is.
maybe don’t ignore half of the example…,
i said SOME games have third party Services and other have them imbedded into the game directly, choose whatever option you prefer,
but you still haven’t answered the initial question.
why do you want inadequately stats that very loosely depict performance over detailed long-term stats that accurately depict personal progress?
that i wan’t to know. no person was yet able to give any reasonable answer other than why not both wich is kinda lazy imo.
Because more information is better than no information. Why would you want to be more ignorant? Even if 99% of the stats were useless and only one was useful I’d still prefer that be kept over its removal.
I figured that was self evident. Apparently not.
And in terms of the short versus long term, I’d much prefer to be able to see if there’s some very direct impact on performance when doing things like switching weapons. Seeing longer term general performance is generally the easier metric to see without stats as you’ll have more successful runs/smoother runs.
You can’t reason with the anti scoreboard crowd they will literally not listen to anything you say and only respond with emotion not facts. Nice try though, the poll speaks for itself.
I see your perspective & I disagree.
It’s astonishing that you can’t understand that people can disagree on topics.
You completely ignore everything I said & only focus on the last two lines. You don’t need to see other people’s numbers to know how you did.
All you would need is to see the percentage you did.
Like I said, statistics are useful for personal goals & specific improvements. However the numbers V2 shows don’t help with that. The score at the end is there because it gives that “reward” feeling that you did good. That’s all it is. We can disagree on that but just because you think the numbers are showing how well you were doing in the game doesn’t mean that’s what they’re showing. Even if you believe they do.
I’ll try saying this as bluntly as possible since you seem to be the type of person that can’t read.
You. Don’t. Need. To. Know. Other. People’s. Score. To. Know. How. You. Are. Doing.
Who killed the most elites means NOTHING. It’s a useless statistic without context.
Just because the elite killer killed fewer elites doesn’t mean they weren’t on their A game. It’s not about how many elites you killed, it’s about WHEN you killed them.
The elite killer’s job is to focus on elites when the others can’t. For example during a horde. Anyone can kill roaming elites & get a high score. How is this so hard to understand?
This is why I’m saying that IF the game should’ve scores they should be personal & should be more in depth, more like the Peregrinaje: Ubersreik Five mod for example.
Numbers have context. 5000 damage may look like a lot until you realize it’s out of a pool of 50k among 4 people. $10/hour may sound like a lot until you realize everyone else is making $18/hour.
Kind of amazing how twisted this whole conversation has gotten.
It’s astounding to me that he wrote some rant about context while entirely missing the point that knowing everybody’s numbers is part of the overall context. Just like knowing the scenarios in the moment to moment gameplay. They’re all part of knowing how you’re doing. Apparently the idea that you should look at numbers and the actual run itself is too difficult to comprehend.
I think those who want the scoreboard removed take the numbers in that table much more serious than anyone else.
If I have the lowest scores because someone was better, or I have a bad day or was unlucky then that’s just how it is.
I don’t feel bad when I have a low score.
I can’t believe that you really think that the information is totally useless.
That argument really makes no sense, you could just not look at it closely and disregard the information that is there.
But why must it stay removed for everyone else as well?
All the compromises involve only seeing your stuff or just the overall percentage.
A lot of people have said they rarely witnessed any “toxicity” because of the scoreboard.
There’s always talk about the supposedly “selfish” playstyle it promotes.
So, what actually is the core of the problem here?
The only reason that makes sense to me is that you simply want that nobody is able to tell if they were better than you or not.
Like I said before, it seems like having low scores makes you feel bad.
Otherwise this wouldn’t be such an issue.
It’s just a table with numbers ffs.
I can tell you this: My playstyle will probably be exactly the same regardless of the scoreboard.
But I can’t simply accept it being removed for no reason whatsoever.
@akaLuckyEye
I didn’t ignore what you said. I just did not respond to it because everything else was addressed already. I am pro scoreboard but I have no problem with a missing scoreboard. I have a problem with people saying the data (of you and your teammates) have no value/are useless because it is not true.
No. That’s all it is to you. That people can get value out of it is a fact and that is why this part of your statement is not a matter of perspective but wrong.
No scoreboard > scorboard ? → matter of opinion/perspective
Scorboard = useless* → factual wrong
Argue for your opinion instead of trying to win with cheap shots. You are making a fool out of yourself.
All information is not equal. Just because some context is important doesn’t mean EVERYTHING is. Knowing how many elites every player killed is not useful information. Because HOW MANY are not the important part, it’s WHEN they are killed. That’s my argument.
More information doesn’t always mean better conclusions. Too much information can lead you to the wrong conclusion. Same thing with wrong information.
What you need to know when you make a build that is focusing on elites (simplified).
How do I spot them in a horde
How can single out them in a horde
What properties, talents & traits do I need to make sure I need as few attacks as possible to kill them.
That’s what’s important. Not the number of kills compared to others.
The scoreboard in V2 is nothing more than a reward for people that care to see numbers go up. And that’s fine if that’s all you want, nothing wrong with that. But it’s not useful information for knowing if you are pulling your own weight or not.
The whole thing is just people with fingers in their ears repeating “nuh uh, you’re wrong!” over and over.
There’s a poll that shows most people want a scoreboard. The logical thing to talk about would then be “what should be on it?”, but nah, it’s easier to ignore the same 3 pointless arguments for another 100 posts.
And then you have an idea for a build. You try it and you look at the scoreboard numbers. Let’s say you didn’t have as many kills as you would have hoped for. One reason could be that the Waystalker behind you killed a lot of elites with longbow headshots before you became aware of them/killed them. How do you find that out? You look at their elite and headshot stats.
It’s really not that hard to understand and at that point, I think you are trolling. I won’t feed you anymore.
Just because people get value out of the scoreboard doesn’t mean the value is correct or useful.
If my role is to focus on elites & I see that other players kill more elites then me I can then come to the conclusion that I need to kill more elites. Which necessarily isn’t the right conclusion for improving.
It’s not my role to kill the most elites, it’s my role to kill elites when the team is doing their role so they don’t need to think about the elites.
You don’t need to see other people’s score for that. All you would need is the percentage you killed & even that’s not needed. That’s my compremice.
The problem is that you can’t grasp that someone can have another opinion than you. Also that more information doesn’t mean better conclusions or the right conclusions.
Again HOW MANY kills is not the important part. It might be important for you personally but it’s not the important part to succeed in the game. The Waystalker can have more kills because she killed more roaming & stationery elites then you, elites that don’t matter.
Elites during Hordes, Ambushes, Monster & Lord fights are important & the score doesn’t give you that information. That’s something you learn by experience.
I’m not arguing that scores don’t have a personal value for people. For some people seeing numbers go up is satisfying & that’s fine. It’s however not valuable information for improvement in cooperating & improving your role. It’s not about who killed the most, it’s about how well I play my role so my team can play their role.
That’s why I’m against showing other people’s score because players can draw the wrong conclusions.
The best games I have had are with randoms that just work as one entity, without almost no communication. An Ironbreaker & Grail Knight instantly switch to horde control during a monster fight. While a shade is dodge attacking the Rat Ogre. With Sienna keeping one eye on specials while attacking the monster & supports the horde control if needed. Someone noticing a Skaven slave running up behind the Shade & instead of keeping on attacking the monster switches to the slave, stooping it from interrupting the Shades damage to the monster.
Who killed the most elites or specials is not the key for improving to that level. A scoreboard, especially the one in V2, is in my opinion more a hider because it can teach players to focus on the wrong things.
Information is good but that doesn’t mean all information is equally good. When it comes to improving in the game.